While it would be POSSIBLE to make a simulator empires product, is there any point in doing so? Would we sell enough copies to actually print it?

By R. Burgess (Ataraxzy) on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 - 04:04 pm: Edit

Question: is there any data for the simulator races? Or a formula for creating combat factors? I'm currently fudging it a bit with some math and about 1/3rd-1/2 of the factors used in GQ.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 - 05:11 pm: Edit

No.

By R. Burgess (Ataraxzy) on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 - 07:29 pm: Edit

k. all good. spent the day creating counters off the F&E counters from the downloads section. They're looking nice.

By R. Burgess (Ataraxzy) on Tuesday, August 16, 2022 - 09:31 pm: Edit

Done. Anyone interested? They're single side only. Steve, you want them for a CL or anything?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, August 17, 2022 - 12:19 am: Edit

Not particularly (I can do my own easier than check yours for correctness), and you cannot post them or even give them away due to copyright.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 07:57 pm: Edit

(this discussion is about making counters for non-existing Simulator empires, like the Sharkhunters or FRAX or whatever).

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Thursday, August 18, 2022 - 11:18 pm: Edit

This is not the first time the subject has come up. To summarize past discussions, the idea of simulator empires in F&E focuses on two options:

1. Do a new map and give each simpire a territory together with unfriendly neighbors, perhaps creating an artificial history or perhaps allowing you to make your own alliances.

2. Embedding simulator empires into larger empires as allies or satraps or rebels. For example, give the FRAX the four northern Klingon provinces and a fleet equal to the Klingon fleet of the North. You have to be careful here. You cannot give an empire a couple of NZ hexes along with a fleet that would cost 100 EPs.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 12:21 am: Edit

So far as option 1 is concerned: I wouldn't be in favour of a dedicated map solely for the simulator empires - but I would be interested in seeing a more option 2-esque place for them on new F&E-scale maps for "real" places in the SFU (like the Lesser Magellanic Cloud), or at least for "real-adjacent" ones (like the proposed "Mapsheet P" for the "lost empire" Paravians).

With that in mind, perhaps they could be dropped into a provisional map of the Sargasso Storm Zone?

It wouldn't have to be all of Sargasso at once; one could start with, say, whatever portion of the Zeta Sector (as shown here) was closest to wherever the would-be Carnivons of Sargasso ended up settling in.

That would be far enough away from the rest of the galaxy to avoid untimely interactions with "outside" empires, while also giving the exile Carnivons someone to practice against until or unless more "real" Sargasso factions were to be added to the universe.

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So far as option 2 is concerned, I noted elsewhere that I'd consider the Kaltic Free States to be a good "trial run" for this concept.

While one could work up a dedicated Frax SIT, akin to the "lost empire" Paravian SIT in Captain's Log #48, one could also consider what stand-ins from pre-existing countersheets could be used as an interim measure.

Also, would Frax subs need special rules to account for their ability to fire axion torpedoes while cloaked?

By R. Burgess (Ataraxzy) on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 11:45 am: Edit

I'll buy anything SFB/F&E that ADB puts out.

Maybe make Simulator Operations a book on how to tune F&E into your own game: Add/Remove empires, integrate empires from other sectors/galaxies, generic counters and maps so there aren't 4 billion countersheets... stuff like that. Rules that allow people to modify the assumptions behind the rules, not the rules themselves. So, no rules that change the underlying 'physics' or interactions, combat works the same regardless, for instance, but rules that allow people to change things that belong to the 'fluff' category, like who's next to whom, what do mixed race empires look like, how to take empires that aren't already produced and create the information needed to put them into your game.

Some specific examples:

1. Sure, the simulator empires were actually used in simulations, but there's some sort of interesting story behind how information about them got 'given' to some military programmers via some overly-elaborate cold-war era style spy ring - they're actually based in reality. How? Why? Where? I dunno, I have my own ideas, but others undoubtedly have theirs, maybe provide two or three different (possibly mutually contradictory) stories and let people choose, a la Mage 20th Anniversary Edition. From a sufficiently high-level view, that's basically the main SFU conceit anyway, so having it show up 'in miniature' is a good reinforcement of the theme. Might be a good introductory fiction for the book.

2. "Integration rules" Sure, one could treat the Frax as their own empire, but the Britannians could easily just be a type of ship for empires to field. It's fantasy, using one's imagination is a large part of the fun! Call it "War Games" or something. Or maybe some rules that allow players to flesh out the small-fleet empires like the Flivver and Hispanolans on their own: "Here's what you need: Freighters, Scouts, Fighters... Here's how you do that..."

IMSFU (In My Starfleet Universe) The Klingons/Frax are the same empire, and so are the Romulans/Quari. They both happily use either style of ships, and when the production schedule says "Klinks build a D7," I merely interpret that as "Klinks build a CA, pick a base hull to produce". Frax subs have some special supply rules, the Qari tanks have special movement rules for particular areas of the map. The 'alliances' are all changed, the Magellanic and Omega empires are all there too, and the geography is wildly different. So, any product that makes any of this easier is a huge win in my book. Maybe a couple of different sets of generic counters, so you're not printing a billion countersheets, but players can have a couple of different new empires in their games.

3. Counters and OoB for Omega and Magellanic empires. This is "Simulator Operations", so all of this is just the very clever Fed military programmers using their imaginations for "war games", literally the reverse of 1., above. Fill stuff out that needs it using the idea from 2., above: "Here's what a military needs... here's how you make that for empires that lack them."

4. OoB for the rest of the empires going back to Y160, allowing players to play "Leading up to the GW" campaigns, or just telling stories that don't involve "all ships have all refits".

5. Rules that do away with "Production Schedules". Again, things that let people change the assumptions behind the game.

Leaning into the "Simulator Operations" conceit, go whole hog and design things such that it allows people to mod their games their own way.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 01:39 pm: Edit

Civil Wars is already 75% finished so it would happen before Simpires. I think Andro War would obviously happen before Simpires. But in future we will look for new things to do and this topic will be here. What it accumulates in the way of ideas and support will inform that decision.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, August 19, 2022 - 03:06 pm: Edit

This topic is about simulator empires. It is NOT about everything else you want instead of simulator empires.

By Steve Stewart (Stevestewart) on Thursday, August 25, 2022 - 12:27 am: Edit

"Simpires" - I think that might be the best name ever! :-)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 02:56 pm: Edit

So if one was to start with the Kaltic Free States:

Based on the F&E map, the KFS would "traditionally" have four provinces, plus one minor industrial planet (Farlin, in hex 1407).

For comparison's sake, Demorak was upgraded from a minor planet to a major planet by the time F&E Minor Empires was published. Would Farlin need a similar upgrade to serve as the capital of a would-be KFS?

Also, while most of the Frax ships currently in print - or, at least, those which have so far been brought over to Shapeways - suit the simulators of the General War era, might there need to be some sort of Frax light cruiser or destroyer drawn up for use in Middle Years campaigns?

And economically-speaking: according to the story fiction in CL41, the "loyal" KFS typically provided 30% of its income to the Empire as tribute. Should this be rounded up to 50% for F&E purposes, to match the "low Vudar" (i.e. the Vudar Enclave as a Klingon satrapy) historical option?

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On a side note, Captain's Log #42 includes a look at Early Years simulator empires, to include the Frax. Among other things, it notes that the Klingons historically gained enough working knowledge of the Romulan cloaking device to re-program Frax subs to be equipped with cloaks in Y145. (No doubt they took extra care not to make those data files available to the Federation...)

So as to avoid wading into any Early Years shenanigans here, it might be best to restrict the presence of Frax subs in a would-be KFS production schedule or order of battle to some point after that date.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 06:43 pm: Edit

Demorak was upgraded from a minor planet to a major planet by the time F&E Minor Empires was published

Still listed as a minor under (714.4) in ME ...

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, September 02, 2022 - 06:46 pm: Edit

I believe the term and definition you are looking for for this planet is Capital Minor or Minor Capital. This could have been defined in ME when published but I believe the opportunity to define this term was missed and still exists.

I cannot remember but I believe it may have been proposed that a Minor Capital planet (as opposed to a Major Capital planet or a minor in a capital hex) is different in that this is the capital of a Minor Empire. The Shipyard is there. The Capital infrastructure is there. Was this type of planet given an increased number of PDUs in a similar manner to the Major Capital Planet (Max is 20)?

Unless overruled by ADB, Demorak is a MINOR planet for economic purposes (3EPs) but is treated as a CAPITAL planet for shipyard and defenses (8 PDUs at start/20 PDUs MAX) purposes. This was asked and confirmed by ADB during development of ME.