A1 Kzinti build a CVS FFs an FFS and FFD, also 4 PDU and convert a CVL CL to CVS CLE.

The Kzinti avoid combat on A1, setting up forces at Duke's and Count's SB and strong reserves in 1401 and 1704.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 08, 2023 - 10:21 pm: Edit

On C2, the Coalition destroy the Count's and Duke's SB and lose about half a dozen cruisers. The Kzintis lose a BC and some smaller ships.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 08, 2023 - 10:21 pm: Edit

*SY169.
*Federation:
A2 PWC
(3rd Fleet) 3NCL 3FF

*Kzinti eco A2 SY169
*Survey roll: 9. New total: 9 + 9 = 18.

*Old treasury: 28EP 1CP.
*Income:
*93EP - 6 EP (1105 1001 captured) - 9 (3CAP PROV and 3 DIS PROV) = 78 EP.
*New treasury: 106 EP 6FFF 1CP.

12 CVS(sub BC, 6FFF)
12 2MEC
9.5 2FF DF (sub 3FF)
28 4PDU (Kzintai)
Free CP (now 2 CP total)
----------------
61.5 EP Total

Conversions
8 (1401) CVL->CV CL->CLE
2 (OM) 2CL->2CLE
---------------------------------------------
10 Total

71.5 Total spent
34.5 EP remaining. 2 CP.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 09, 2023 - 02:08 am: Edit

Any chance of a line up of the ships both sides had at the SB's?

How many turns did they last and did SID's be needed or where they self killed?

Thanks

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 09, 2023 - 03:57 am: Edit

There were 12 ships at Count's SB vs a ton of Lyrans (BT FF 3(CV+CE+EFF) SF. The Kzintis here stayed for two rounds, lost a CLE and EFF and destroyed a CW and crippled 3CW BT SC or some such.

Duke's SB was defended by BT 3BC CL 3(CV CLE EFF) 2(CVL CLE EFF) CVE SF. That went five or six rounds before the Kzintis retreated. I have never seen anyone score SIDS on A2 vs the Kzinti SB and it didn't happen here. The Klingons had about 30 fighter factors here, though their carrier groups had anemic compot (only sending fighters forward because of this). The Kzintis lost a BC and CL, the Klingons (most of N Fleet and N Reserve Fleet) lost 3D7, D5, F5 and maybe something else, I don't remember. The Klingons crippled BT 3D5 and a couple other ships or so, the Kzintis crippled all the CLEs, the CVLs and an SF. Zelkrat and Zamyan were also captured.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 09, 2023 - 10:01 pm: Edit

Kzinti A2 op moves are complete.

A picket FF in 0701 is under attack by 15ish Kzinti. A 9 ship Lyran reserve (BT 3CC CW 2DW 2FF DWS) could reinforce this picket.

An FF picket at 1001 is under attack by a BC and a fleet of cripples (including 2 cvls). No reserve can reach this battle.

In 0903, 15 Lyrans (DN or BT 6CW 7CL SC) are under attack by most of the rest of the Kzinti fleet (around 40-45 ships?). Three moderate reserves (including the one mentioned above) can reach this hex.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 - 01:10 am: Edit

It turns out one reserve is in range of 1001; additional ships were sent to 1001 to deal with the possibility.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 - 09:59 pm: Edit

Alliance turn 2 is complete. There were very few battles. The Lyrans lost CW and 2FF, while the Kzinti lost DF. The Coalition was kicked out of 1001.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 - 10:44 pm: Edit

The Emperor is strictly concerned with winning the war and would gladly make whatever choice supports that end.

The Minister of Construction is aware that the proposed battleship design would be hazardous to build and suffers from a high risk of delays and cost overruns. He understands perfectly well that if one's goal is to win the war, building the battleship is a poor choice.

However, the Minister of Construction is unaware of the Emperor's attitude and has a healthy regard for his own skin. Therefore, the Emperor is not informed, and construction will proceed as planned.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 - 11:10 pm: Edit

It was a D5 that was destroyed rather than a CW.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Tuesday, January 10, 2023 - 11:36 pm: Edit

I stand corrected. Part of me actually thinks that building the first B-10 should be required by rule. Of course it's a poor choice . . . but imagine the utter humiliation of cancellation!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 02:14 am: Edit

The B10.

I suppose there are two relevant aspects.

1) On a practical side of things - is an overbuilt E4 likely to make much difference? (It could be spend on other things, but it's a direct value gain to the Coalition if they don't spend the 5 Ep's on the roll).

2) As you said - which true Klingon doesn't want the biggest and badest ship in the Galaxy?

The game effect though is can you slant the game enough which the game designer didn't intend (and so making it a requirement to start is required)*?


* - There has been very comments over the last, what 20 years - should the Coalition be required to invade the Wyn (and fail) and Tholians (and probably fail) - to help restore what SVC felt would be the natural direction of the game?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 02:43 am: Edit

1)A B10, on average, takes about 12 dice to construct. That's not one overbuilt E4, but rather 12 (or perhaps 6 D5s). And you get those ships a lot sooner (mostly) than that B10.

With SFGs, I think the equation changes.

2) Most Klingon players build it anyway.

------

I don't think there will ever be a _requirement_ to attack the WYN or Tholians in the normal General War Scenario. Note that if I recall correctly, there will be rules for attacking the WYN in Civil Wars. Heh, good luck with that.

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 04:00 am: Edit

A C8 is worth at least 3 E4s (otherwise we'd just overbuild the E4s), probably 4 or more. A B10 is worth at least 2 C8s - it's double the density of a C8, it's just one fewer ship (bad for pinning, great for battle lines). So trading a B10 for 12 hulls isn't that bad of a trade, even if it's only worth doing once.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 06:39 am: Edit

But a B10 takes ~12 turns to make. If you overbuild ships (let's say D5s) you get 11 + 9 + 7 + 5 + 3 + 1 = 29 ship-turns of D5 usage before the B10 comes online, in addition to 6 D5s instead of a B10 at that point. It's not a simple tradeoff.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 08:04 am: Edit

Richard

I agree - it's what do the Klingons do with the 5 Ep's that turn - and an overbuilt E4 has some immediate value (probably pinning!)

Sam - as Richard said - do you want 12 turns of 1-12 E4's being used or after 12 turns, your B10?

If the Coalition is going for an early win - those E4's have much more value as the game may be over before the B10 is finished.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 11:10 am: Edit

What makes the B10 *so* worth it is the B10A or B10AA. More particularly a pair of them. Even with the recently modified SFG rules, these are *very* scary units. A pair of B10s is also very useful when pursuing crippled alliance units that retreat after a battle. A B10 in form is also difficult to target when in the form box, making it a very useful CR10 command ship (which the Klingons don't have enough of). I usually see the 60 damage needed to target it only during hard point assaults, and even then if you control the BIR usually you can prevent even a high roll from generating that kind of damage. Their 4 fighters are also useful for eating a bit of damage over many rounds (assuming you brought backup fighters with you). Plus, just having 24 compot in a single ship is going to add, effectively, 12 compot to any line you otherwise would have been able to put up using a C8. Also very handy.

I agree with Richard that this is not a straightforward decision (B10 versus 6 overbuilt D5s used right away) or 12 overbuilt E4s, especially because the extra pin count is extremely useful for map control. However, I usually make a point out of constructing *at least* one B10 because of the advantages listed above.

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 04:43 pm: Edit

We are playing base game, so there is no stasis.

In the base game, a B10 with its fighters actually has less compot than a Fed CVA with its fighters. Of course not being forced to be escorted is nice. But still.

Did they nerf the B10AA?

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 04:45 pm: Edit

Lyran economy, turn 3

Survey roll 9
Survey total 22
Survey EP 2
Offmap 22
Capital 37
Planets 24
Provinces 32
NZ 1.8

Income 118.8
From last turn 1.6
Total Money 120.4

Repairs
502 CW 1.5
104 DD, FF 2
504 2DD 2
705 tug, 3CW 6.5
707 CC 2
404 tug, 2CW, DD, SC 7
Subtotal 21

Builds
BC 10
CA 8
3CW 15
2DW, DWS 14
3FF 7.5
FRD 10
3FF, CW (overbuilds) 25
Subtotal 89.5

Conversion
Lyrantan DN 6

Total spending 116.5

Money after Econ 3.9

Command points 6+1=7

By William Jockusch (Verybadcat) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Klingon economy, turn 3
Survey roll 10
Survey total 16
Survey EP 0
Capital 49
Planets 41
Provinces 52
NZ 2
Z provinces 2

Income 146
From last turn 9.6
Total Money 155.6

Repairs
1809 F5 1
1509 D6, D5, F5V, E4, 3F5 8.5
1307 D6M, TGA, 2D5 8
1209 1xE4 1
1009 F4 1
Subtotal 19.5

Builds
D7C 9
D7 8
D6M (for D7) 10
9D5 45
3F5, 2F5V, F5S 25
3xE4 7.5
Activations 7
B-10 roll 5
Subtotal 116.5

Conversions
Klinshai D6M 5
Klinshai D7C 2
Klinshai D6D 3
SR D7C, F5S 3
Subtotal 13

Total spending 149
Money after Econ 6.6

Command points 7+1=8
B-10 0+6=6

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 11, 2023 - 05:58 pm: Edit

Stasis got nerfed; if I recall correctly you can now only use two ship mounted SFGs in a battle force. So if you have two B10AAs, you might use one on each, but you cannot use all four.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, January 12, 2023 - 02:35 am: Edit

Yes - SFG's are limited to 2 SFG's in total may be used - so that 2 x B10AA potential to freeze an entire line has gone.


So whats going to head south then?

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 12, 2023 - 03:46 am: Edit

Shhh! It's supposed to be a surprise for me!

By Tom Lusco (Tlusco) on Thursday, January 12, 2023 - 08:35 am: Edit

A B10 in the formation bonus, plus a B10V group in the line, offer a ridiculous 22 point boost to compot (12 for the B10 over c8, another 10 for the B10V group over a similar C8V group) while simultaneously protecting both big ships.

In my current game as the alliance player I avoid the fleet with those two units like the plague, and only fight it when I have to.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Thursday, January 12, 2023 - 09:14 am: Edit

IMO I'm not a fan of the B10V. The required escorts bring your compot down a lot (compared to adding 3-4*Lyran BC instead of 6 and 4 compot escorts, for example) - and the Alliance can drive the B10V from the line after just 3-4 combat rounds by killing the escorts one at a time (otherwise you have to live with the ghost escort penalty).

The B10V looks good on paper, or for short combats, but it just doesn't have staying power in a strategic sense, and the required escorts bring down the whole fleet's potential compot.

YMMV