Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through January 28, 2023	25		02/04 01:07am

The important question is: how many ships do the Lyrans have in range of 1401?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, January 28, 2023 - 11:28 pm: Edit

Pretty much all of them (except cripples retrograded out of range and auxes/tugs/MB's/FRD's) from the Home and Red Claw. That was the plan, and it was executed, at the cost of some hulls and not killing anything but the one BATS.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, January 29, 2023 - 08:31 pm: Edit

CT1:

One Lyran reserve was set in 0504 (new construction).

AT1:

Kzinti Economy.

Year/Turn	168F	Alliance Turn 1	Exploration:
Starting Treasury	0		FFF:	6
Income	Major	Minor	Provinces	TOTAL INCOME
On Map	1	5	12	44
Off Map	1	2	3	17
Capital	4	4		32
Captured			In EPs Lost:	-1
Transfers
Salvage				0
Repairs				0
TOTAL INCOME AFTER REPAIRS				92
Starting Command Points:				0
Schedule	#	Actual	#	FFF	Hex	Cost
BC	1	CV	1	6	cap	12
CL	1	2xFF	2	0	cap	5
DD	1	FF	1	0	cap	2.5
FF	2	FCR, FFK	1, 1	0	cap	12.5
Total						32
Conversion Program			Actually Produced		Hex	Cost
BC	1	CV	1		1401	17
CL	1	CLD	1		902	3
CL	1	CLD	1		1304	3
BC	1	BCE	1		1704	1
FF	1	FFK	1		OFF	1
Total						25
Activations						Cost
Total						0
Other Production					#	Cost
PDU					4	28
SP	(Pair)				2	6
Total						34
Other Costs
Total						0
Grand Total						91
Ending FFF						0
Ending Treasury						1
Ending CP						0

Now that I look, we need to roll exploration yet, and Trent is still thinking about his moves, although he tells me that he doesn't think the "roll the dice" plan works.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 01:29 pm: Edit

The Lyran CA to CC 'question' is perhaps the easiest one.

Yes, 1 Ep per ship MIGHT be wasted, but on average, probably pays for itself 2 or 3 times during the game due to repairs?

72 Damage over 2 turns is 9 CA's, which will cost 18 Ep's to repair.

or 8 CC's will will cost 16 Ep's to repair.

So thats 2 'free CA to CC' conversions.

And 8 extra Compot - which might make the difference of an extra cripple here or an extra cripple there - or a dead good Alliance hull over being 1 damage too short.

In other words, yes, it might waste 1 Ep - Ep wise, it's probably a wash over 6-8 turns due to more damage and less repairs..... and the boost in compot causing more damage is the reward.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 01:07 am: Edit

AT1 is over!

There is no combat whatsoever; the Kzinti retreat a little over 20 ships (and set a reserve) on 0902, a little under 20 ships to 1304, set a strong reserve in the Marquis area, and retreat the rest of the fleet to the capital, given that the Klingons and Lyrans could technically get something like 100 ships there next turn.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, February 05, 2023 - 12:33 am: Edit

CT2 Economies

Lyran

Year/Turn	Y169S	Turn 2	Exploration:	14 + 11 = 25
Starting Treasury		8.5	FFF:	9
Income	Major	Minor	Province	Total
On Map	3	3	16	56
Off Map	2	2	5	26
Capital	4	5		35
Captured	0	0	0.6	0.6
Transfers			Klinshai(TGP-SMN)	-10
Salvage
Repairs				12
Total Income this turn				95.6
Total EP Available				104.1
Schedule	#	Actual	#		Hex	Cost
DN	1	DN	1			16
CA	2	TGP,CA	2			14
CW	4	CW	4			20
DW	3	2xDW, DWS	3			14
FF	3	FF	3			7.5
Total						71.5
Conversion Program			Actually Produced		Hex	Cost
CA	1	DN	1		408	6
CL	1	CLS	1		411	3
JGP	1	JGP-V	1		408	1
JGP	1	JGP-C	1		408	1
CA	2	CC	2		OFF	2
CL	1	CLV	1	4 FFF	OFF	1
Total						14
Activations						Cost
Total						0
Other Production						Cost
Fleet Repair Dock						10
KBP	Pair					4
JGP-COG				5FFF		0
Total						14
Other Costs
cp						5
Total						5
Grand Total						104.5
Ending FFF						1
Ending Treasury						8.1

Repairs

Repairs
Hex	Ships	EPs	By
504	2xDD	2	BATS
705	2xDD	2	BATS
707	2xCW,3xDD	6	FRD
707	HDD (as DD), DD	2	BATS
	Total	12

Klingon

Year/Turn	Y169S	Turn 2	Exploration:
Starting Treasury		2.5	FFF:	13
Income	Major	Minor	Provinces	TOTAL INCOME
On Map	4	7	26	93
Off Map	0	0	0	0
Capital	5	8		49
Captured	0	0	0	0
Transfers
Salvage
Repairs
Total Income this turn				142
Available to Spend				144.5
Schedule	#	Actual	#		Hex	Cost
C8	1	C8	1			16
D7	1	D6M	1			10
D7	1	TGB	1			6
D5	9	D5S,8xD5	9			48
F5L	2	F5	2			6
F5	4	F5	4			12
E4	3	2xE4,E4R	3	1FFF	E4R 1509	13.5
Total						111.5
Conversion Program			Actually Produced		Hex	Cost
D6 (act.)	1	D6M	1		1411	5
D6 (act.)	1	D6S	1		1411	4
D6	1	D6D	1		2318	3
D6	1	D6D	1		1716	3
D5	1	D5S	1		1411	3
Total						18
Activations						Cost
d6	2	19 left				2
f5	2	8 left				2
e4	4	12 left				3
e4a	1	free				0
Total						7
Other Production						Cost
Total						0
Other Costs
CP						5
Total						5
Grand Total						141.5
Ending FFF						12
Ending Treasury						5.5

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, February 05, 2023 - 12:42 am: Edit

CT2 Operations

The Lyrans designate a supply tug in 0803.

The Lyrans move TGP,FRD from 0705 to 0803.

[Now that the obvious stuff is out of the way...]

The Lyrans attack pretty much everything in sight, using their small SEQs to attack planets 1001 and 1202, as well as BATS 0701, 0703, and 1004. 25 ships led by DN,TCB, BC go to 0902; enough to kill the Starbase, although not overpoweringly so.

The rest of the Home Fleet from 0803 goes to 1401.

The Klingons hit 1405, 1304, and 1401. A total of 75 SEQ go to the capital (between Klingons and Lyrans.)

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, February 06, 2023 - 12:14 pm: Edit

So we didnt -quite- get through combat on CT2 this weekend, but we came fairly close... only the capital is left, where the Coalition has put up three lines including one over Kzintai and the Alliance is sporting 241 COMPOT there.

Everywhere else, the Coalition was unsurprisingly victorious. The Alliance dropped damage rather than shoot generic cruisers on the line and so the Coalition has a -lot- of cripples, probably more than their disorganized repair capacity can deal with this turn (the Klingon Home Fleet FRD would be helpful right about now but is still floating around near the capital waiting for... who knows.)

Particularly in 1304, the Alliance probably could have fought a little harder, but chose to retreat without taking significant cripples rather than try to save the base.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, February 11, 2023 - 06:21 pm: Edit

The turn is over!

The Coalition kills two starbases and a bunch of PDUs, but has no, like, FLEET left, as something like 50% of the SEQ that got to 1401 ended up being crippled in two turns over Kzintai:

Hex	Round	Faction	EW	ComPot	Shift	BIR	BIR Roll	Tot.BIR	Rolls	%	Damage	Direct	Damage Taken
1001	1	Coalition	0	26	-1	4	0	5	5	30.00%	7.8	N	8 Fighters
		Alliance	2	18		1			3	25.00%	4.5	N	Cripple FF (+1)
	2	Coalition	0	22	-1	4	0	8	1	27.50%	6.05	N	PDU, 4 Fighters
		Alliance	2	10		4			1	30.00%	3	N	Cripple FF
	3	Coalition						0			0		Dead PDUs, Captured.
		Alliance									0
902	1	Coalition	6	93		1	2	7	6	40.00%	37.2	Direct CVE+FFK	[34] 3 CVE Fighters
	8 DBB	Alliance	7	105		4			3	32.50%	34.125	Direct BC [30]	Cripple CW [-2]
	2	Coalition	6	91	-1	1	0	5	5	30.00%	27.3	N	6 SIDS
	4DBB	Alliance	9	106		4			2	25.00%	26.5	N	Cripple 3xCW,DD [-1]
	3	Coalition	6	87	-1	1	-1	4	3	22.50%	19.575	N	20 Fighters
	4DBB	Alliance	9	106		4			2	22.50%	23.85	Direct DWS (20)	Cripple DD [-3]
	4	Coalition	4	90		4	-2	6	1	25.00%	22.5	N	4 SIDS (2 Crippled), 6 Fighters, [-1]
		Alliance	1	48	-1	4			4	30.00%	14.4	N	Cripple 2xDD [+1]
	5	Coalition	5	90		1	2	7	5	37.50%	33.75	N	Dead SB
		Alliance	1	24	-1	4			3	30.00%	7.2	N	6 Fighters [+2]
701	1	Coalition	0	30	-1	4	0	8	6	40.00%	12	N	2 SIDS 4 Fighters
		Alliance	1	18		4			2	32.50%	5.85	N	Cripple DD [+1]
	2	Coalition	0	25	-1	4	0	8	4	35.00%	8.75	N	Dead BATS
		Alliance	1	14		4			6	42.50%	5.95	N	Cripple DW [+1]
703	1	Coalition	0	29	-1	4	0	8	2	30.00%	8.7	N	2 SIDS 1 Fighter
		Alliance	1	18		4			3	35.00%	6.3	N	Cripple DD [+1]
	2	Coalition	0	24	-1	4	1	9	5	42.50%	10.2	N	Dead BATS
		Alliance	1	17		4			5	45.00%	7.65	N	Cripple 2xFF[+1]
1004	1	Coalition	0	27	-1	4	0	8	3	32.50%	8.775	N	2 SIDS 1 Fighter
		Alliance	1	18		4			2	32.50%	5.85	N	Cripple DD [+1]
	2	Coalition	0	22	-1	4	-1	7	6	37.50%	8.25	N	Cripple BATS, 4 Fighters
		Alliance	1	17		4			2	30.00%	5.1	N	Cripple DD [+1]
	3	Coalition	0	17	-1	4	1	9	3	35.00%	5.95	N	Dead BATS
		Alliance	1	7		4			6	45.00%	3.15	N	Cripple DD [-1]
1202	1	Coalition	0	26	-1	4	0	8	4	35.00%	9.1	N	9 Fighters
		Alliance	2	18		4			5	40.00%	7.2	N	Cripple 2xFF [-1]
	2	Coalition	0	22	-1	4	0	8	4	35.00%	7.7	N	Capture
		Alliance	2	9		4			4	37.50%	3.375	N	Cripple FF [-2]
1304	1	Coalition	4	98		1	0	5	2	25.00%	24.5	Direct BF [24]	SIDS, [-4]
	8DBB	Alliance	3	130		4			2	25.00%	32.5	N	6 Fighters, Cripple 3xD5, D6 [-2]
	2	Coalition	5	94	-1	4	1	9	4	37.50%	35.25	Direct CC [28]	SIDS, [-1]
	8DBB	Alliance	8	105		4			5	42.50%	44.625	N	Cripple D5, 2xF5L, E4S, D6, D7, 6 Fighters [-2]
	3	Coalition	7	88		1	0	5	5	32.50%	28.6	N	10 Fighters, 4 SIDS
		Alliance	3	114	-1	4			3	25.00%	28.5	N	Cripple 3xF5, F5S, D7 [-1]
	4	Coalition	6	97		1	0	5	4	30.00%	29.1	N	2 SIDS [Cripple] 6 Fighters, 3 Crippled SIDS
		Alliance	1	48	-2	4			4	25.00%	12	N	3 Fighters, Cripple 2xF5 [-2]
	5	Coalition	6	84		1	-2	3	4	25.00%	21	N	DEAD SB
		Alliance	1	24	-2	4			6	25.00%	6	N	Cripple F5L
1405	1	Coalition	0	29	-1	4	-1	7	4	32.50%	9.425	N	2 SIDS, 1 fighter
		Alliance	1	18		4			2	30.00%	5.4	N	Cripple F5
	2	Coalition	0	24	-1	4	2	10	4	40.00%	9.6	N	Dead BATS
		Alliance	1	17		4			5	45.00%	7.65	N	Cripple 2xE4
1401	1(Kzintai)	Coalition	8	116		2	2	8	4	37.50%	43.5	Direct 4 PDU	-10
	14 DBB (10F)	Alliance	5	241	-1	4			4	35.00%	84.35	N	Cripple 3xCW,3xF5L,2xCC,2xD7C,D6M (-1)
	1(Keevarsh)	Coalition	3	78	-1	4	1	9	1	30.00%	23.4	Direct 2xPDU	-9
		Alliance	7	80		4			4	40.00%	32	Direct D6 (24)	Cripple F5 (+1)
	1(Viesalm)	Coalition	3	100	-1	4	0	8	4	35.00%	35	Direct 3xPDU	-13
		Alliance	7	95		4			1	30.00%	28.5	Direct CA (24)	Cripple CW (-2)
	2 (Kzintai)	Coalition	10	110		2	2	8	6	42.50%	46.75	Direct 4 PDU	-17
		Alliance	9	241		4			3	35.00%	84.35	Direct TAB/D[32]	6 Fighters, Cripple D6M,3xCW,3xDW (-4)
	2 (Vronkett)	Coalition	6	85	-1	1	0	5	6	32.50%	27.625	Direct 2 PDU	-4
		Alliance	10	102		4			1	22.50%	22.95	N	Cripple DD,HFF,3xF5 (-3)
	3 (Pursuit)	Coalition	6	66		1	0	5	2	25.00%	16.5	N	Cripple BC (+3)
		Alliance	0	56	-2	4			5	27.50%	15.4	Direct D6M (8)	Cripple D6S (-6)

The Lyrans have a reserve in 0705 (keeping an eye on SB 0404, which is in range of a legit Kzinti fleet in 0802), and the Klingons have a reserve in 1407, which looks like it is setting up to be a long term base of operations. (As it ever was, and there are too many cripples for the Coalition to turn around in one turn, too.) There is a Lyran MB setting up there too, but it is far from clear that with all the cripples that the Kzinti can be pinned out; much less pinned out of all the places where FRD's are located right now (0803, 0906, 1407.)

But the Coalition shot down 8 PDU over Kzintai, meaning that the Kzinti never get to 12, let alone 16 PDU in the capital and making this a pretty clear Kzinti-first.

We'll see how the Hydrans do in a turn!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, February 12, 2023 - 04:28 am: Edit

Quick question

1) It doesn't appear the Kzinti increased the EW from the SB over the captial to not only avoid a -1, but force the Coalition to have the -1?

i.e. 4 EW from a Scout Tug or 4 EW from the PDU's plus 6 from the SB would cost 18 compot - and with that compot, would be worth it (on the dice rolled, Kzinti do the same damage but Coalition would only do 41 damage.

Remember two things - the Defender gets to see the attacking line first AND both sides declare variable EW once both lines are known - so the Kzinti should have been able to win EW easily (and noting the Kzinti SB only loses 18 Compot to generate the maximum 6 EW - so why not?? )

(EW for the Kzinti over the capital does actually look low - and my point about the Coalition having alot of EW seems correct - shifting the enemy over their capital???)

2) Not Sure if the Capital compot was wrong for round 1 or not updated following the loss of 4 PDU's?

Round 1 and Round 2 show as 241...

241 seems low for 12 PDU's and a modest full line (100 Compot)?

256 would seem about right for round 1 (or 238 with 6 EW from SB) and 220 (with 8 PDU) about right for round 2?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, February 12, 2023 - 12:21 pm: Edit

Paul:

You are 100% correct, and I have fixed the spreadsheet:

1(Kzintai)	Coalition	8	116		2	2	8	4	37.50%	43.5	Direct 4 PDU	-10
14 DBB (10F)	Alliance	9	241		4			4	37.50%	90.375	N	Cripple 3xCW,3xF5L,2xCC,2xD7C, D7, D6M (-3)
2 (Kzintai)	Coalition	10	110		2	2	8	6	42.50%	46.75	Direct 4 PDU	-17
	Alliance	9	205		4			3	35.00%	71.75	Direct TAB/D[32]	6 Fighters, Cripple D6M,3xCW

Net effect is that the Coalition uncripples 3xDW and cripples a D7 (no effect on Coalition damage as they had one more D7 to give, if they needed to.)

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, February 12, 2023 - 01:08 pm: Edit

Graham

You might want to check the lines - as I can't see how you can cripple 3 x CW, 3 x F5L, 2 x CC, 2 x D7C, D7 and a D6M and get to that EW/Compot.

Thats 12 hulls - so it which would allow you to have a DN/C8 and a D6S/TG+SP to get to 14 hulls - including the 3 Extra Ships via ADM/Command Points and Battlegroup - plus the D6S/TG+SP in the Scout Box.

You don't mention any Drone - and so that would max out at 110/8 Compot, not 116/8.

(A Tug+BP+DP might get 12 compot and 1 EW, but I don't think there is a ship which offers more than 4 compot and 3 EW.)

(Drone's might get you high enough!)

So what was the Coalition Line?

Also, what was the Kzinti Line? Was the EW for PDU's included - (a SB at EW 6, 4 PDU and even 1 from a SF is 11..... - a CD and TG+SP would get 16 and so -2 on the Coalition, which over the capital is absolutely worth it) - so it actually looks marginally low on Compot - 1 CP/ADM, 12 PDU, SB with 6EW, 14 Drone would get to around 248 - and thats with a less than ideal line of just 96)

So EW and compot looks high for the Coalition and both look low for the Kzinti.

The TGA+BP+DP, would also take 34 to die if directed (as the EW in the DP adds 1 to it's uncrippled value).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, February 13, 2023 - 11:41 am: Edit

Unfortunately, we keep the results, not the lines, so I am not sure exactly what happened; luckily, it is not going to be significant enough to change anything for the Coalition (in either direction the only difference is how many fighters are left swinging).

I don't think I counted the Alliance line, I just took Trent's count and put it in the spreadsheet, which is why I missed the EW from the bases in the first round. Rough first real fights getting back into the swing of F&E.

We also forgot salvage and had to go back and fix that, fortunately before Alliance economy on AT2.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, February 19, 2023 - 04:53 pm: Edit

AT2 is complete:

Economy:

Year/Turn	169S	Alliance Turn 2	Exploration:	9 + 7 =16
Starting Treasury		6.75	FFF:	12
Income	Major	Minor	Provinces	TOTAL INCOME
On Map	1	3	7	28
Off Map	1	2	3	17
Capital	4	4		32
Captured			In EPs Lost:
Transfers
Salvage				6.5
Repairs				-7
TOTAL INCOME AFTER REPAIRS				76.5
Starting Command Points:				0
Schedule	#	Actual	#	FFF	Hex	Cost
BC	1	TCG	1		CAP.	8
CM	2	MEC	2		CAP.	12
DD	2	FFK, FKE	2		CAP.	7
FF	3	2xFF,FCR	3		CAP.	7.5
Total						34.5
Conversion Program			Actually Produced		Hex	Cost
FF	1	FKE	1		CAP.	2
Total						2
Activations						Cost
Total						0
Other Production				hex	#	Cost
PDU					4	28
Total						28
Other Costs
Total						0
Grand Total						64.5
Ending FFF						0
Ending Treasury						18.75
Ending CP						0

Repairs:

Repairs
Hex	Ships	EPs	By
OFF	2xCLE,FFK,SF	5	SB
1401	BC	2
	Total	7

The Kzinti try their darnedest to get an FRD (the one in 0803, it being the one the Klingon reserves can't reach) and get a fairly decent matchup for AT2 there. However, on review of 302.211, an FRD is a "base-like" unit and the Coalition get to fight to save it on approach.

The only other fight is in 1402, where the Kzinti come out and pin the bad guys so they can't interfere with retrograde movement by reacting on a few FF's that scatter out to create space.

Hex	Round	Faction	EW	ComPot	Shift	BIR	BIR Roll	Tot.BIR	Rolls	%	Damage	Direct	Damage Taken
803	1 (Approach)	Coalition	2	111	-1	4	2	10	5	42.50%	47.175	Direct CLD (20)	12 Fighters, Cripple 2xBC (-1)
	12 DBB	Alliance	5	105		4			4	42.50%	44.625	Direct DN (36)	Cripple 2xCW (-2)
1401	1	Coalition	5	89		1	-2	3	5	27.50%	24.475	Direct FKE (19)	5 Fighters
	8 DBB	Alliance	2	91	-1	4			4	22.50%	20.475	Direct F5 (16)	4 Fighters

The result is that the Kzinti trade CLD,FKE for DN, F5, which is probably a fairly good trade. The Lyrans had to put DN's on the line to have a chance to save the FRD, and they succeeded, but the Kzinti target fired down one of the DN's on the line as a result.

The pinning battle was super-unexciting, with 5-spot hulls exchanged, no cripples, and a Kzinti retreat to the Capital.

Next a post with map status and overall casualties (which I have been remiss in posting) then the beginning of CT3.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, February 20, 2023 - 02:23 pm: Edit

So, a quick post with casualties for Turn 2:

CT2:

Lyran:
Killed:BC, CA, DWS
Crippled: 7xFF, 11xCW, DW, 10xDD, 2xCC, HFF

Klingon:
Killed:D6, TAB/D (and D6M no salvage)
Crippled:4xD5, 2xD6, 6xF5L, E4S, 3xD7, 11xF5, F5S, 2xE4, 2xD7C, D6M, D6S

Kzinti:
Killed: 2xPDU, CVE, FFK, BF, CC, 19 PDU, SB 0902, SB 1304, BATS 0701, BATS 0703, BATS 1405.
Crippled: BC

Then in AT2:
Lyran:
Killed: DN
Crippled: 2xCW

Klingon:
Killed: F5
Crippled:

Kzinti:
Killed: CLD,FKE
Crippled: 2xBC

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, February 20, 2023 - 05:17 pm: Edit

Graham

Missed your replied

"Unfortunately, we keep the results, not the lines, so I am not sure exactly what happened; luckily, it is not going to be significant enough to change anything for the Coalition (in either direction the only difference is how many fighters are left swinging)."

I would disagree - over a normal battle, I would agree, but over the Capital, as the Defender can can alter the potential EW outcome and their line , plus their BIR to try to reduce the chance of the Attacker getting over a key damage threshold - and as it would appear with the errors in both lines (Your compot or EW looks too high on how you resolved the damage and your sons compot/EW looks too low) - your have nullified the defenders advantage in picking a line to give them the best chance.

The dice might well mess up the defenders plans - but as an example, round 1 should have seen the Kzinti with 13 EW (6 from SB, 4 from the PDU's and 3 or 4 from Scouts)* - which is -2 on the dice.

* - A line of SB (not reduced on EW), 12 PDU's and a low battle line for the capital of 100, is 256 compot - and so 241 would seem right for a max EW SB.

With the Mauler - you can still probably kill 4 PDU's (and on the dice rolled you would), but more Fighters would live.

On round 2 - their would be more owed points and so killing 4 PDU's would have been unlikely (as the same 13 or 14 EW is generated)?

For simplicity - giving the Kzinti 1 PDU back - and keeping the original damage for the Kzinti dealt (so the 3 x CW's are crippled) is probably still unfair on the Alliance (as more damage could have been done by them on round 1), but at least its closer to the correct ouctome.

But, just reducing the Kzinti compot in round 2, due to the 4 dead PDU's and allowing the Coalition to take less damage by ignoring the correct EW, is not right, IMHO.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, February 20, 2023 - 11:01 pm: Edit

[Paul, I'm not sure I understand that, but the last sentence does not describe what we did, so I'm not sure what the relevance is anyway.]

[Moving on...]

CT3 has begun, with economics featuring lots of repairs and not a lot of surprises. The Klingons are holding the maximum FFF going into CT4, it looks like, to the surprise of no one, and the Lyran repair bill sees them cutting a lot of the fluff from their schedule and just, you know, making ships.

Lyran Economy

Year/Turn	Y169F	Turn 3	Exploration:	25 + 5 = 30			Repairs				Conquer	major	minor	provinces	Total
Starting Treasury		8.1	FFF:	0			Hex	Ships	EPs	By	G				0
Income	Major	Minor	Province	Total			404	3xCW,DW,DD,FF	8	SB	F				0
On Map	3	3	16	56			502	2xDD	2	BATS	N			2	2
Off Map	2	2	5	26			504	2xDD	2	BATS	Kz			3	3
Capital	4	5		35			608	4xDD,FF	5	SB		0	0	5	5
Captured	0	0	5	5			705	2xFF	2	BATS	Salvage	#	EP
Transfers							707	CW	1.5	BATS	BC		2.5
Salvage				9.5			803	4xCW	6	FRD	CA		2
Repairs				38.5			906	2xCW,3xFF	6	FRD	DWS		1
Total Income this turn				93			1407	2xD7,2xF5	6	FRD	DN		4
Total EP Available				101.1
Schedule	#	Actual	#		Hex	Cost
BC	1	BC	1			10
CA	2	CA,CF	2			18
CW	4	4xCW	4			20
DW	3	2xDW,DWS	3			14
FF	3	3xFF	3			7.5
Total						69.5		Total	38.5		Total		9.5
Conversion Program			Actually Produced		Hex	Cost
CA	1	DN	1		408	6
CA	3	CC	3		411	3
Total						9
Activations						Cost
Total						0
Other Production						Cost
Fleet Repair Dock						10
Total						10
Other Costs
BATS 1407						15
Total						15
Grand Total						103.5
Ending FFF						0
Ending Treasury						5.7

Klingon Economy

Year/Turn	Y169F	Turn 3	Exploration:	0 + 5 = 5			Repairs				Conquer	major	minor	provinces	Total
Starting Treasury		5.5	FFF:	12			Hex	Ships	EPs	By	G				0
Income	Major	Minor	Provinces	TOTAL INCOME			906	CC	2	BATS	F				0
On Map	4	7	26	93			908	2xE4	2	BATS	N			1	1
Off Map	0	0	0	0			1107	D7C	2	BATS	Kz			1	1
Capital	5	8		49			1209	2xF5	2	BATS		0	0	2	2
Captured	0	0	2	2			1307	D7C	2	BATS	Salvage	#	EP
Transfers			Y169S Lyran	10			1407	D6M,D6S,F5	6	FRD	TAB/D	1	2.5
Salvage				5.65			1507	CC	2	BATS	D6	1	2.4
Repairs				28			1509	4xD5,E4S,F5S	8	SB	F5	1	0.75
Total Income this turn				131.65			1707	2xF5	2	BATS
Available to Spend				137.15
Schedule	#	Actual	#		Hex	Cost
D7C	1	D7C	1			9
D7	1	D7	1			8
D6	1	D6M	1			10
D5	9	8xD5,D5S	9			48
F5L	2	F5	2			6
F5	4	F5	4			12
E4	3	E4	3			7.5
Total						100.5		Total	28		Total		5.65
Conversion Program			Actually Produced		Hex	Cost
D6 (act.)	1		D6M	1		5
D6 (act.)	1		D6D	1		3
D6	1		D6D	1	1716	3
Total						11
Activations						Cost
d6	2	17 left				2
f5	2	6 left				2
e4	4	8 left				3
E4A						0
Total						7
Other Production						Cost
B10 #1	Roll: 6					5
BP/DP						5
Total						10
Other Costs
CP						5
Total						5
Grand Total						133.5
Ending FFF						12
Ending Treasury						9.15

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, February 21, 2023 - 02:52 am: Edit

Graham

On 1401 - you corrected the Kzinti compot for round 1 to a minimum of 9 EW - so there was no -1 on round 1 - and removed 36 compot for the Kzinti on round 2 - so the factual corrections was done.

But based on the stated compot and EW - and damage resolved, there was errors in both of the lines - which has been ignored.

For example, the Round 1 Kzinti Force was stated as 241 Compot and corrected to EW9.

SB is 48
12 PDU's is 108
Was the line defending the Capital planet only 85 compot and 4 EW?

DN, 6 x BC, CL, CVS+CLE+EFF and 12 Drone is 100....

(And so multple DN/Battle Tugs and CC's - plus an ADM and/or CP could easily get the line to over 110 - hence EW 6 for the SB does make the 241 compot looks about right, but EW would be 14 probably then - so -2 on the Coalition).

Assuming it was -2 and 110 compot - thats only 36 damage (hence why 4 PDU's could still die, but with -2 on the dice, should the Kzinti select a lower BIR....... normal tactics would say yes, but I fully accept over the capital you might want to do maximum damage), so another 8 owed damage for round 2.

On Round 1 - the way you resolved damage on the Coalition line makes is very difficult to see (without Drone Bombardment) how that line could have been legal?

Your line was 116 and 8 EW
Original Damage taken was
3xCW,3xF5L,2xCC,2xD7C,D6M and a D7 was added to counter the lost missed EW effect.

A legal line could be
C8(ADM), D6M, 2 x CC, 2 x D7C, D7, [BG 3 x CW, 3 x F5L), D6S, D6D(Scout) = 110/8 - which includes both an ADM and sufficient Klingon Command Points (1 or 2 being a capital hex) to gain an extra ship for that system.

Yes, Done could be used, but it wasn't mentioned - so I am guessing the Coalition had 1 too many ships being used?

(Basic 10, Flag, ADM, CP, Battle Group = 14 ships plus 1 free scout).

So mathematically the round 1 line and damage was clearly wrong?

So I am not sure what lines was used - but they both look wrong and those mistakes are both in the Coalition favour.

Capital Hexes are tough to attack - and something has gone wrong here and so your Son might think capital hexes are easier to attack than intended?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, February 26, 2023 - 03:23 pm: Edit

[So we spent some time last night trying to reconstruct the Coalition line on CT2, and failing; we think the problem is probably that I didn't actually have a D7 extra on the line when I went back later and tried to correct it, not knowing what the actual line was (a DN in that slot or a TAD would fix most of the issues. I will note that you put the D6D rather than the D6S in the scout box (?) which would make it 113/6 (not 113/8), and I believe there was a TAD or TAB/D and maybe a Lyran DN. But we couldn't reconstruct a line that worked. So rather than worry with it, we are just assuming the Klingons used DBB (8 COMPOT worth) so that there isn't an issue. Dock the Klingons .8 EP above, that makes the line trivially achievable, and we get to stop refighting CT2.

I fervently hope.]

Meanwhile, on CT3, the Lyrans attack 1105 and 1205, the Klingons and Lyrans again pile into the capital, and the Klingons hit the NZ planet, BATS 1605, and planet 1504. Planet 1502 is unattacked, because pinning the capital takes too many ships when there are still 40 PDU there.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, February 27, 2023 - 02:41 am: Edit

Graham

Sorry, I know you are trying to resolve it as easy as possible - but you appears your allowing the Coalition to do as they please to correct it's error and that is penalising the Alliance.

1) EW
Sorry - my example line should have shown 2 x D6S's - as a TGA with DP and BP (to get a CR10 hull) is only EW 1, so with a D6D on the line, it would only get 7 EW - not 8.

2) If a player makes a mistake - should they benefit?

In all honestly, most players are happy to correct simple mistakes - but more so to avoid a penalty to them, rather than actively gain.

And using Drone appears to be saying 'it doesn't matter what damage I did, I'll bump it up to the required level'.

But within the game, did the Coalition have any Drone ships useable to add to the Coalition line?

What other ship should have been crippled in round 1 to deal with the extra damage taken - by the looks of things, it would have been either the Flagship or one of the D6S's (or something self killed) - and that might have had a direct effect on round 2?

Would your son have done anything different if you had a higher compot or lower EW?

So - surely the easiest solution is to correct Coalition line (or impose an EW penalty on them) and un-kill 1 Kzinti PDU capital?

By Sam Benner (Nucaranlaeg) on Monday, February 27, 2023 - 01:48 pm: Edit

Surely the solution is "ask the players whether they're good to play on, and if they are then drop it".

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, February 27, 2023 - 03:28 pm: Edit

Sam good question - except one of the players doesn't know of this bulletin board

But if you played a game and the other player made a mistake, which resulted in a major gain for them, would you allow it to stand?

Please don't get me wrong - mistakes do happen and in most battles it's not relevant.

But we are talking about a Capital assault where the defender gets to see the Attackers line before they decide what line they will use.

Yes, variable EW is declared after lines are done - but with the attack being on turn 2, their are no variable EW ships.

So the defender can create a line to generate the right level of EW to get -1 or -2 for the attacker .

So we have the Coalition compot wrong (too high) and the Alliance Compot and EW is wrong (too low on round 1) - and when an error is pointed out (the Kzinti compot dropped for round 2), one side amends the damage done, in their favour and ignores the main changes which should happen, what would an impartial observer say?

I don't think it's unfair to say the Kzinti have been very hard done by, by the error and most certainly have lost out.

Just saying 'the Coalition uses some Drone bombardment' to cancel out the Coalition error isn't correct - thats using the dice result to benefit one side.

Graham hasn't mentioned it - but did the Kzinti get to change their damage allocation on round 1 and round 2?

I am not saying the battle should be re-rolled - what I am saying is the rules should be followed to ensure the Defender gets the correct benefits for defending a Capital Hex - and that not only hasn't happened, but the Attacker has benefited from their mistake and the Defender seems to have zero input on how it should be resolved?

So Graham, what does Trent know of the mistakes that have happened and is he fully aware how he could have improved his situation, if the correct lines had been used?

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Monday, February 27, 2023 - 03:49 pm: Edit

Just to 'expand' on my issue and make it more relevant- it's not necessarily what the damage was or wasn't - but it's a key game dynamic.

The attacker fails to do enough damage to do anything meaningful.

After round 1 - the dealt damage should have been around 36 (assuming 116 was wrong and 110 is correct, based on the ships crippled and Kzinti compot was the same, but EW generated -2 on the Coalition) so instead of 10 owed its 17 owed.

So 4 PDU's still die on Round 1.

Round 2 - Similar Lines - but the Kzinti now go LOW on BIR.

If the Coalition assume the Kzinti will go max damage again - we are looking at BIR damage 3 points lower - and instead of 42.5% damage done (which killed 4 PDU's, after the incorrect 10 owed was deducted) - we have only 30% done due to lower BIR and EW.

So that 33 damage (based on 110 compot) and so only 16 damage done.

Crucially - BIR is now too low for the Mauler to be used, so only 1 PDU can be killed.

Yes, the Kzinti damage dealt is alot lower (56 v 72 based on the 205 compot).

But 56 damage is alot to eat to kill 1 PDU.

Would the Coalition stay a third round - noting the stack of cripples it already has at that point or will it run to protect the FRD park?

So, it's a mission win for the Kzinti - they only lose 5 PDU's, not 8 in total.

Two simple errors (both in the Coalition favour) - and so its a massive difference for the Kzinti.

One side corrects the damage done by one side, which makes it even more in their favour - without it seems taking into account the key rules which have been ignored.

Is that fair?

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Saturday, October 14, 2023 - 11:59 am: Edit

So, after a long hiatus (although not quite as long as it looks) this game is back on... I'm not sure how much I will put up on the board, but I am at least going to post some notes so that we have a record.

In the interim, CT3 happened; not a lot of action but the Coalition took over the rest of Kzinti space (except 1502 and 1401 and the Marquis), and killed a bunch of PDUs in the capital (again) taking a bunch of cripples and losing a few big ships. The Coalition will not repair everything CT4.

On AT3, the Hydrans have built escorts and small ships, and dogpiled the Lyran front, pinning the Lyrans in 0411 and sending ships to kill both BATS (neither of which are defended). A reserve from the Klingons can get to 0411, but can't reach the BATS.

The Kzintis have a full fleet because they took virtually no ship damage on CT3, and are meeting the combined (uncrippled...) Coalition fleet in 1202 where the Klingons have a mobile base setting up. They also have a fleet attacking 1001. Each of these hexes had one reserve in range, so to each of these hexes one reserve will go. Five combat hexes to come.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Saturday, October 14, 2023 - 02:28 pm: Edit

Hi Graham

What were the battles in 1401 - and hopefully your Son got to the use the Capital defence rules correctly this time?

Good luck for the Alliance in 1202 - alas this early in the game, in deep space, as politely as possible (unless the Kzinti is happy to lose CC and BC hulls), the Kzinti aare just dreadful in winning approach battles!

Their compor just sucks

I assume your Son is gunning for the Tug setting up the MB?

(Note for the battle - after the Approach battle - the Tug settign up the MB has to be in the battle force - taking a normal slot in the line - although it can go in Form - so at the base the Coalition comopt is likely to drop!)

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Tuesday, October 17, 2023 - 12:01 pm: Edit

Looking back at CT3 (which was played months ago, so I am just looking at the notes) it appears the Kzinti had learned a lot. They avoided a shift over the capital and shot big ships (D6D,TAB/D) while also crippling much of the rest of the line. The Alliance rolled 6,5 in two rounds over the shipyard against the Coalition's 6,2.

He did indeed gun for the tug, but turned tail after the first round of approach, when the Coalition (surprisingly) dropped damage and I think he was concerned about having to cripple too many escorts before the next capital fight. The Coalition traded a Lyran DWS for some cripples and fighters. There will be other opportunities when it continues to upgrade...

In other news, the Hydrans pinned most of the Lyrans on 0411 (retreating from a declined approach) and killed the two Lyran BATS on the neutral zone, before retrograding away.

The Kzinti also postured at 1001, but a reserve showed up to defend, so that battle also lasted only one round.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, October 20, 2023 - 01:08 pm: Edit

So to end AT3 the Hydrans retreated to SBs and the Capital (leaving a fair number of ships on the SBs because the Klingons can't really get to 0617 this turn and the Lyrans can't at all. The Kzinti are all in the Capital except the require Marquis ships.

To start CT4 it looks like the Coalition will have to go slow in Hydran space because their very conservative deployment left both Lyran BATS to die and most of the Klingons more than six hexes from the Capital. However, in Kzinti space they are forward deployed and have already made decent progress... Only 1401 and 1502 (with its bonus-points Starbase) are left to attack...

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Monday, October 23, 2023 - 12:03 am: Edit

Klingon High Command was recently informed by the Emperor that since the Hydrans did not infringe on Klingon space in their unprovoked attack on the Lyran Star Empire, the Klingon Home Fleet will be withheld from the invasion this spring.

Needless to say, choice words with many consonants were uttered.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, November 05, 2023 - 01:20 pm: Edit

CT4 Econs and movement are done.

The Klingons build C8, TGA, D6M, 2xD5V, 2xAD5, 3xD5, D5H, D5S, 2xF5E, 4xF5, 2xE4, E4R and convert D6S and D6D in the capital. With 29 EP of repairs, they do not replace the lost battle pods or upgrade the MB in 1202. They do keep the B10 running, for 5 EP.

The Lyrans build DN, STT, CA, 3xCW, LTT, 2xDW, 3xFF, convert CA to DN and conduct 26 EP of repairs, much of it on Klingon vessels. There is a substantial repair backlog as the Klingons have not as yet built an FRD ingame.

The Klingons and Lyrans attack the Hydrans, but avoid anything within 2 of the Expedition SB or Hydrax. So BATS 0114, 0315, 1116, 1217 and 1219 and SB 1017 and 0215 are under siege, with reserves dispatched shortly (presumably to 0215, where there is a small defensive fleet.)

In Kzinti space, the Coalition dogpiles the capital and then sends a fleet to 1502 after pinning. Those are the only two combat hexes in the North.