You can't select the CLE as a flagship candidate until the BTV is selected as a flagship candidate.

By Kosta Michalopoulos (Kosmic) on Friday, June 11, 2021 - 10:47 pm: Edit

Yes I am confused. I don't understand what happened to the carrier tug in your example.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Saturday, June 12, 2021 - 12:13 am: Edit

Yeah, the flagship selection process has to be done before withdrawal, and it's of the 3 ships with the largest command ratings.

BTV - command rating 10.
CVL - command rating 8.
CVL - command rating 8.
(technically, there's more CVL's, but you only select 3 flagships, so that's our list).

The flagship selection process is not redone after withdrawal, so one of those three ships is going into the battle as the command ship (and presumably being demolished if you're setting up a sacrifice line).

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, June 12, 2021 - 12:23 am: Edit

Oh, I see what happened.

I cut and pasted Mike Ericksons example from April 21, 2:08 pm. And did not see that that changed the order of retreat command ships. Sorry.

I did mention that I am having a very difficult time reading posts to the BBS?

Ok, I will repost with corrections tomorrow.

I just want to thank every one for their understanding as I labor to get this right.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Saturday, June 12, 2021 - 07:24 pm: Edit

The only time the flagship selection can change is via cloaked withdrawal ...

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Saturday, June 12, 2021 - 08:27 pm: Edit

Stewart, are you looking at the actual posts?

Errors have been made, changes made.

The conversation changed as correct information got posted.

If you are trying to condemn people for making mistakes, honest ones, I do believe, but still mistakes, it is poor gamesmanship.

Some of the errors I have made, is due to my deteriorating eyesight. I am blind in one eye, and progressively losing my vision in the other. I have already explained it, twice before now.

If you are looking for an apology, gee, I am sorry that I am going blind.

I will try to post to your standard.

With regards to your June 12, 2021 7:24 pm post,
Mike Erickson posted an example of Flagship selection that listed. 2*CVL and a CLE as proposed flagships.

I assumed it to be valid.

So, if you want still another apology, gee, I.am.sorry.I.did. Not.know.Mike. (at the time he posted) was making a mistake.

So if you are really honest, you screwed up because this tactic has nothing to do with cloaked withdrawal, just imperfect humans trying to illustrate a detailed, complicated procedure under less than idea conditions.

Try understanding that not everyone has your level of knowledge or experience in F&E.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, June 13, 2021 - 06:48 am: Edit

Sorry Jeff - what everyone has been trying to tell you is that your tactic note is 'bust' and either your not noticing the busted points - or real life and your concerns is making you too busy to actually read the posts and your just hammering your point home?

The busted point of your tactic note is that with a Battle Carrier (TGC+BP+VP) and 3 x CVL - the battle force MUST include the Battle Carrier or 1 of the 2 CVL's.

i.e. the Command Rating 8 point raised several times means a CLE can never be the Flagship - and this hasn't been taken into account in your much copied and pasted Tactic note.

So - take a step back, calm down (your last post is perhaps OTT) - re-read the posts please and accept the Tactic Note will not work.

A joint Tactic Note with several peoples comments might well come out of this (How to use the CVL fighters effectively as a pin and have a CR10 hull*) - but 'use the CVL for pin factors and put up a CLE to die', will not work.

* - I.e. a Battle Carrier Tug, 3 x CVL and a CVE.... is 19 fighters

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, June 13, 2021 - 01:22 pm: Edit

How to use the Kzinti CVL (for something other than just pin value or a paper weight)
The F&E Community
UN The World.

The venerable Kzinti CVL has long been the odd duck of the Hegemonic Navy. with only 4.5 fighters factors and so to assemble a battle fleet 18 fighter factors or 3 nominal fighter squadrons). is not easy. Early in the War, it is used as a normal ship - as the Kzinti will lack sufficient numbers of CVS's to have full carrier lines - but by the mid War and later, the CVL is far better than being just as a FCR.

So, once the CVL is relegated from the primary battle lines, what can it be used for?

The honest answer would seem to be - use them in pairs.

The normal battle line of Carrier Battle Tug (Form and Phantom Slow) is supported by the 2 x CVL+CLE+FF's and 1 x CVE+CLE+FF and the lowly SF in the Scout Box. 15 Fighters (and 3 replacements) gives a modest level of free attrition and in most battle a FF is at risk (or the SF).

Compot wise, with 62 to 65 compot (FF v EFF) and 1 EW - it might do enough damage to get something back.

If it attacks and a large battle force opposes it - which might get 30+ damage in the battle (thereby risking the Carrier Battle Tug) - as the CVL's are Medium Carriers - you can escort them with 3 escorts each (CVL+CLE+CLE+FF and CVL+CLE+SF+FF).

34 damage (with a mauler) to direct cripple the weaker group might still happen, but as 2 or more owed points will occur*, a net 12 damage (with mauler) although it is possible is not guaranteed.

* - The fighters will create owed points if say 34 damage exactly is done - and you can forgo taking the owed fighter points and crippling a CLE in the other group, to ensure 2-3 owed points occur.

So - use the strength and weakness of the CVL - in pairs.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Sunday, June 13, 2021 - 01:36 pm: Edit

How to use the Kzinti CVL
The F&E Community
UN The World.

The venerable Kzinti CVL has long been the odd duck of the Hegemonic Navy. with only 4.5 fighters factors and so to assemble a battle fleet 18 fighter factors or 3 nominal fighter squadrons). is not easy. Early in the War, it is used as a normal ship - as the Kzinti will lack sufficient numbers of CVS's to have full carrier lines - but by the mid War and later, the CVL is far better than being just as a FCR.

So, once the CVL is relegated from the primary battle lines, what can it be used for?

The honest answer would seem to be - use them in pairs - and when defending, use them purely as pin value.

A normal battle line 2 x CVL+CLE+FF's and 1 x CVE+CLE+FF and the lowly SF in the Scout Box, gives 12 Fighters (and 3 replacements) gives a modest level of free attrition and in most battles, only a FF is at risk (or the SF).

Being Command Rated 8 - a CVL can control the battle force.

Compot wise, with 49 to 52 compot (FF v EFF) and 1 EW - is probably not enough do enough damage to get something back.

But the CVL Force is designed to delay the enemy and not kill it.

If it does find itself facing a large force, by withdrawing 50% of the force, a lowly CLE and FF can be put up to die - allowing the valuable CVL's to escape.

(i.e. 10 ships, 5 withdraw, 2 fight - it might be possible to put up just a CLE and 6 Fighters in an Independent Fighter Squadron, but you could still lose the outer escort and CLE - but a line of say CLE, 6 IFF from 2 x CVL+CLE, might be an option - with the CVE, SF and FF's retreating).

Although a smaller force can be designed a force with only 7 ships, is probably not going to achieve its objective of pinning sufficient enemy forces - and so the CVL is not realistically useable for a 7 ship (and 8 or 9 equivalent) pinning force.

So - you can still use the strength and weakness of the CVL - in pairs.

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Sunday, June 13, 2021 - 07:27 pm: Edit

[I actually drafted a sarcastic note pointing out that while the CVL is a terrible ship without a lot of purpose, it has one and only one real use: being converted into a CV.]

[I decided just saying this was less annoying.]

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Sunday, June 13, 2021 - 10:32 pm: Edit

Jeff, that was just a sidebar comment ...

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, June 14, 2021 - 07:02 am: Edit

Graham, you are wrong. The Kzinti CVL has multiple uses. Using them correctly has long been the issue. A CC with 3xCVL groups isn't a bad force and could take down an undefended Sector Base. Not that a Sector Base would be left undefended when they are available.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Friday, June 25, 2021 - 12:02 am: Edit

Stewart Frazier:

Oh.

I guess I took it as a personal comment.

Thank you for being gracious.

It is a positive thing, as opposed to the very negative comments made by other, less kind, people.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, July 09, 2021 - 02:49 pm: Edit

The case for Federation FBEs
Thomas Mathews
USS Georgia

In the mid to late war period Federation FFEs are either scarce or non-existent. The vast majority of small outside escorts will be the DWA or DE. While these ships are excellent small escorts they have a reason to be protected by another smaller escort. That reason is under (502.941) when in Y181 every surviving DE and DWA or larger escort carries a single FCR type fighter factor. How do you protect those small escorts from being crippled or killed before using the free FCR fighter factor? The obvious answers are the FFE or an ad-hoc FF as the outermost escort. The not so obvious answer is the FBE. The FBE costs as much as the DWA but doesn’t provide the free fighter factor and is not quite as good offensively as the DWA. However, it provides two things an ad-hoc FF doesn’t. The escort bonus when directed upon by your opponent and 2 extra points of offensive combat potential over the ad-hoc FF.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, July 15, 2021 - 08:34 am: Edit

How to use the Kzinti CVL (for something other than just pin value or a paper weight)
The F&E Community
UN The World.

The venerable Kzinti CVL has long been the odd duck of the Hegemonic Navy. with only 4.5 fighters factors and so to assemble a battle fleet 18 fighter factors or 3 nominal fighter squadrons). is not easy. Early in the War, it is used as a normal ship - as the Kzinti will lack sufficient numbers of CVS's to have full carrier lines - but by the mid War and later, the CVL is far better than being just as a FCR.

So, once the CVL is relegated from the primary battle lines, what can it be used for?

The honest answer would seem to be - use them in pairs.

The normal battle line of Carrier Battle Tug (Form and Phantom Slot) is supported by the 2 x CVL+CLE+FF's and 1 x CVE+CLE+FF and the lowly SF in the Scout Box. 15 Fighters gives a modest level of free attrition and in most battle a FF is at risk (or the SF).

Compot wise, with 62 to 65 compot (FF v EFF) and 1 EW - it might do enough damage to get something back.

If it attacks and a large battle force opposes it - which might get 30+ damage in the battle (thereby risking the Carrier Battle Tug) - as the CVL's are Medium Carriers - you can escort them with 3 escorts each (CVL+CLE+CLE+FF and CVL+CLE+SF+FF).

34 damage (with a mauler) to direct cripple the weaker group might still happen, but as 2 or more owed points will occur*, a net 12 damage (with mauler) although it is possible is not guaranteed.

* - The fighters will create owed points if say 34 damage exactly is done - and you can forgo taking the owed fighter points and crippling a CLE in the other group, to ensure 2-3 owed points occur. If your also particularly concerned about this, including a spare DD or CL in the attack force would ensure both carriers can have 2 medium escorts along with a light escort (and the SF can go to the Scout Box), which bumps the required damage up by 6 damage points.

So - use the strength and weakness of the CVL - in pairs.


Edit - and earlier draft might have used 2 x CVE's (hence noting the replacement fighters) - and corrected on spelling.

By Trent J. Telenko (Trent_Telenko) on Friday, August 13, 2021 - 03:25 pm: Edit

The First and Best F101 Carrier
Trent Telenko
USS Texas

Federation players should convert their CVF fast raiding carrier to using F101 heavy fighters, see rule (530.0). The F101 on the CVF drastically improves the ship's performance as a fast-raiding carrier starting on the F101 introduction date of Turn 21, Fall Y178 via rule (530.222) Conversion. This rule allows any Federation carrier in the main supply grid with a single six factor F18 squadron to upgrade it to a F101 squadron for four economic points or two free fighter factors without a minor conversion.

There are several ways that this (530.222) Conversion improves the CVF. First, in exchange for giving up either an F-111 or A20 carrier, a F101 upgrade will make the CVF a 7-8F(8Y) raider with 15 attack factors. So, when armed with the F101, the CVF is now fighting on the normal combat chart. [Please note that per rule (310.114), once the CVF has F101's, a Federation player cannot hold back one F101 factor to get the CVF back into the (310.0) SMALL-SCALE COMBAT system.]

If using the Planetary Operations module, and its "Fighter-PF Special Raid," see rule (320.22), the CVF plus F101 can reach out eight hexes to deliver a directed damage attack. This attack can be enhanced to nine attack factors via the use of a Heavy megafighter (+1) marker, see (535.0).

As the CVF is a fast single ship carrier unit, interception via (320.355) is reduced. The use of normal escorts inside or outside the (314.0) raid pool, see (320.3) Conducting Special Raids, voids this advantage. Using Federation fast escorts will restore that (320.355) advantage.

When conducting non-raid combat, an F101 equipped CVF is also far more deadly when conducting a (319.0) Offensive Fighter-PF Strike during normal combat as it has eight attack factors (or nine with a +1 heavy megafighter marker) versus the defense factors of a pair of province holding small ships. One or both of which may have been crippled in the raid/special phase before normal combat. This can be highly beneficial in that a fast CVF can be escorted by normal escorts for six hexes of movement, then use it's remaining seventh hex of movement to launch the Offensive Fighter-PF Strike. If the CVF is in its seven hex support range of a Fighter Storage Depot, see (445.0), it can replace fighter strike casualties between multiple rounds of combat.

And the cherry on top is that the small ship(s) attacked, any ship reacted in, or reserves sent in support the attacked small ships, cannot direct damage at the CVF, since it is not in the same hex, see (319.22).

The Offensive Fighter Strike can be especially nasty when a CVF is combined with a DVL for enhanced combat power (16 AF Offensive Strike) and both ships (and any escorts) retrograde after combat, see (319.23), effectively allowing a strategic redeployment without using strategic movement!

Finally, if the Federation player does not want to give up an A-20 or F-111 build slot and the Planetary Operations module is in play. Rule (450.5) "Production Override" gives a Federation player the option of paying three economic further points to forgo the opportunity cost of losing a A-20 or F-111 carrier build for an F101 turns 21 through 23. The CVF upgrade costing seven economic points, or two free fighter factors and three economic points is available.

Too sum up, for a small economic and/or opportunity cost, the CVF with F101 is less vulnerable as a raider and causes more damage to province holding Coalition small ship garrisons inside or outside of raids.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Wednesday, February 23, 2022 - 12:51 am: Edit

(Not sure this one has been done in the CLog and this is the plan for the safe bet.)

Bird-in-Hand Diplomacy - By Lawrence Bergen, California

In the opening of the typical General War scenarios several ideas have been floated about where the Fed Diplomats should go to best help build economics. The 1st and 2nd of the DIPs tend to go to the Kzinti and Gorn Capitals. The safe bet, and for the Gorn a nice bonus should they eventually get into the war. A no brainer for the Kzintis as they need the help (and probably sent theirs to the Fed and Gorn).

But that third Fed Diplomat...many gamble with it in the NZ. Worth it? Maybe not. It is better to bolster your allies when you can. Sending the Fed DIP to the Hydran Capital via APT/PTR in Strat Phase Turn 1 will give the Fed and Hydran their extra EP on Turn 2. (Hydrans should should send theirs to the Fed, just don't forget to pull it back at the end of T2). Then you can move the Fed Diplomat to the LDR on Strat Phase Turn 2 gaining the Fed and LDR an EP on turn 3 through 6 (the Coalition gain nothing). (Note: If the Hydrans look like they might just pull off the Expedition get your DIP out of there.)

Pulling the Fed DIP during Strat Phase 6 the Fed can push it to the Romulan NZ planets to try their luck or if the war is already going poorly for the Coalition to the Romulans outright (they might not come into the war right away or ever if things are that bleak.) The end result is +5 Federation EPs through T6 for all 3 Fed DIPs (15 EPs guaranteed). Adding in 11 EPs from the Kzinti, Gorn and the short visit from the Hydran to bring the Fed coffers to +26 EPs before the Klingons come on Turn 7.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Wednesday, February 23, 2022 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Ya know, for an easier time, just send that DIP over to Romulus and no worries until Turn#9 ... can always pull him over to one of those NZ spots if needed ...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, February 23, 2022 - 08:16 pm: Edit

Giving the Romualns extra EPs doesn't sound like a good idea to me (for the Feds).

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Wednesday, February 23, 2022 - 11:41 pm: Edit

Stew that is what actually brought the discussion up. We were discussing the fact that many games do not make it to T10 so sending it there might seem like a good plan (little to no risk).

The added APT/PTRs are free to Strat about the universe until the borders close. So why not employ them in a way that gives the enemy little to no gain. After T6 Econ sending that last one is an option later in the turn and it can head to Romulus for 7-9. 3EPs is better than giving them 9 which I point out. Most will as Rich mentions be uncomfortable doing this and would rather try to flip a Rom NZ planet that point.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, February 24, 2022 - 12:55 am: Edit

I don't think a tactic that presumes the game ending before turn 10 is the best thing in a tactical note.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, February 24, 2022 - 05:51 pm: Edit

RichardE - remember that any non=ally DIP points must be spent on the turn their made, which usually means either an APT/PTR or small conversion ...

Course, the Romulan should send their third DIP to the Gorns for 11 easy turns of extra income ...

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, February 24, 2022 - 07:26 pm: Edit

Haha right Richard that's why I didn't propose that specifically. In fact that is not the point of the TacnNote at all but rather to deprive your enemies of EPs for as long as possible while getting a steady stream (rather then NZ planet chance rolls).

Stew...I suppose if both side are getting EPs all it does is ramp up the total econ. What's the rule that spells out Non-Ally DIP EPs spent? I can add that to the TacNote.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, November 19, 2022 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Trent, you can stay in SSC (310.0) under (310.115) even though (310.114) does apply so you may fight SSC at 14-16 if you so wish.

By Trent J. Telenko (Trent_Telenko) on Wednesday, November 30, 2022 - 04:22 pm: Edit

The problem with this thought:

>>so you may fight SSC at 14-16 if you so wish.

...is the full text of (310.115):

"Any Battle Force consisting of three or fewer units (including any assigned attrition units) facing a Battle Force that qualifies for Small-Scale Combat may, regardless of its ComPot, require that the Battle Hex be resolved by the Small-Scale Combat system at the owner’s option and risk, however, any ComPot in excess of fourteen offensive and/or nineteen defense factors is ignored.

All assigned attrition units may take casualties as normal even if not counted for ComPot.

If both players have three or fewer ships which exceed the limits of fourteen and/or nineteen, and both agree, this option may be used."

...means you can only use 14 points of combat potential, not 15, or 17 if you are using a prime team on the CVF(Y).

The usual tactic of Coalition province holder frigate swarms is to have a small scout frigate able to react two hexes and cover several other frigates. This reaction means it can use it's scout capability to get a EW shift for the small ship combat.

There is less risk of permanent damage to the CVF(Y) in the normal combat system versus a scout frigate and a couple of province holder frigates and SSC.

On a good Coalition roll, the CVF(Y) loses nothing but F-101 heavy fighter factors.

While even a bad BIR roll on the CVF(Y)'s part will generate at least one damage point required to cripple a frigate or remove a one side police cutter counter.

But you are correct the tacnote needs to be rewritten to account for that.