Trent, The prime team would still add 2 to the 14. So you would be at 16-16 with it. The prime team is not included in the 3 ship compot limit.

By Trent J. Telenko (Trent_Telenko) on Thursday, December 01, 2022 - 12:36 pm: Edit

A CVF is a 7-8(6) counter for a total offensive compot of 13.

A CVF(Y) is a 7-8(8Y) value ship (CVF w/F-101 chit) possessing a total offensive compot of 15.

Adding a prime team compot makes a CVF(Y) a 17 offensive compot unit for combat, be it small or normal.

Total defensive compot is 14 for a CVF and 16 for a CVF(Y), as a prime team has no defensive effect.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Thursday, December 01, 2022 - 03:24 pm: Edit

In SSC, the CVF(Y)can still only contribute 14 AF total; the Prime Team can add a bonus 2 AF for a max of 16 AF.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, January 25, 2023 - 05:00 pm: Edit

The 'not so' humble SPB
Paul Howard
HMS England

In 'basic' F&E - the Romulans have perhaps what appear to be the worst Medium Carrier in the Game - the SPB.

In isolated battles, the 8 Fighters may be useful, but in extended fights, the SPB creates problems in that the SPB is ungainly, 3 SPB's can't be used to face off 3 Federation or 3 Gorn medium carriers (you can only hold back 4 fighters, so it's still over the limit).

But those 8 fighters do give 1 nearly unique benefit (the Federation CVB being the other one) - in Small Scale Combat.

But the SPB has one advantage over the CVB - the Cloak.

If the SPB is being used to garrison a province, it should be possible to have the SPB next to a SN or SK hull in the adjacent hex - and they can react into each other's hex if attacked.

If attacked by a large force, the SPB retreats before combat and the SN/SK tries to Cloak withdraw (and 1 ship in a hex has no greater chance of escaping than 2 in the hex, so it doesn't reduce the chance of losing nothing).

But what happens if the SPB is 'on it's own' and it get jumped on by a small force and ESSC is used?

In basic F&E, the most compot either side can have is 14 - and a SPB is 15 defensive compot - so the attacker at best will be on -1 (assuming no mauler has been captured etc).

Even if the attacker rolls well, other than the 1/36 chance of double 6 being rolled, the SPB can escape from combat undamaged.

A roll of 11 becomes 10 after the -1 and so 3 casualties would be inflicted.

6 Fighters resolve the first Casualty
2 Fighters and Retreating resolved the other two Casualties.

Those extra 2 fighters, when combined with a retreat, ar3e worth a whole casualty, when otherwise 4 or more fighters is needed to resolve a casualty.

The extra 2 fighters ensure outside a 12 being rolled, the SPB is safe!

If a larger force does mug the SPB (or you may feel you will be out of supply for the next turn and want to keep the fighters) - the SPB can always cloak and 2/3rds of the time, should safely cloak.

If the worst does happen (the Cloak Fails), the attacker needs to do 12 damage and so a 40 compot size force will have had to be sent to give a modest chance of crippling the SPB.

So you keep around 7 enemy ships busy for a turn, have a 2/3rd chance of avoiding combat AND they probably only have a 50/50 chance of crippling the SPB, with that size force.

(If your worried about say a 70 compot force jumping on the SPB, having a SN/SK next to it could allow the SPB to escape safely!)

So, a very low risk of losing the province holder and it has the strength to beat most forces in ESSC - which might allow it to capture that province before holding it.

The downside - the Romulans early on will have few SPB's - but later on, as the heavier carriers come on line, some SPB's can be re-directed to 'enemy province raiding duty' and hopefully cause some serious problems to the Alliance.

So use that not so humble SPB, far away from the main battle lines!

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Wednesday, January 25, 2023 - 07:42 pm: Edit

SPBs are not bad carriers. You are confused.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, January 26, 2023 - 02:44 am: Edit

Richard

They are if your trying to hide your Cruisers..... or have run out of Escorts


But the 8 fighters do give it near 100% safety in ESSC combat - so you might as well use that benefit when you can.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Thursday, January 26, 2023 - 01:38 pm: Edit

You can hide cruisers (off line presumably) with SUP+2(escorts) + 2x(SPB+(escorts)).

Not the worst one by any means, a few worse medium carriers include Fed early war CVS/NCL carriers, Hydran CW carriers, Lyran CVLs, Klingon D5Vs and D6Vs, and so on.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Thursday, January 26, 2023 - 07:33 pm: Edit

The attacker could still get a +1 DRM in small-scale combat by bringing a prime team to the party.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 27, 2023 - 02:15 am: Edit

Richard - The note is more abut the SPB being ideal for 'province holding duty' than whether it's a good or bad Medium Carrier (hence it refers to 'appears' rather than a stronger statement ).

Jason - No Prime Teams in Basic F&E (and no X=Ships or Penal Ships) - only way to get a +1 is with a Mauler - which is not impossible (but you would need to capture one) and then use it with the two required consorts.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Friday, January 27, 2023 - 10:29 am: Edit

Looking at other war cruiser carriers (which are its contemporaries), I think SPB compares quite favorably:

emp	uclss	bh	bcost	cr	afct	dfct	cvtyp	ffact	odens
R	SPB	SP	6	8	6	7	MED	8.0	14
G	HV	HD	7	6	7	7	MED	6.0	13
Z	CMV	CM	7	6	7	7	MED	6.0	13
F	NVS	NCL	7	6	6	7	MED	6.0	12
K	D5V	D5	7	6	6	7	MED	6.0	12
F	NVL	NCL	7	6	4	7	MED	6.0	10
L	CVL	CW	7	6	4	7	MED	6.0	10
H	NCV	HR	7	6	3	7	MED	6.0	9

1. Cheaper to build at 6 EP for the carrier without fighters, compared to 7 EP for other empires.
2. Carries 8 fighter factors (16 SFB fighters) rather than 6 for other empires. This results is the highest offensive density (14) of any CWV.
3. Command rating of 8 vs 6 for other empires.
4. Has conversion path to FHB, NHB, and SUB.
5. Can convert and unconvert from other SP variants during operational movement using (433.43).
6. Equipped with a Cloaking Device and can use (306.0).

By Graham Cridland (Grahamcridland) on Friday, January 27, 2023 - 11:27 am: Edit

In addition to everything Mike said, the SPB can by converted into a heavier (or heavy!) carrier, unlike every other platform on the list. If you want to pay for COMPOT density, the Sparrowhawk is your boy.

But, one note, I don't think that you can use two full strength SPB "squadrons" of 8 plus an IFF; the SPB isn't an oversized squadron so it can't fly as a squadron of more than 6 fighters (and you can't have two oversized squadrons anyway) so SPB+SPB+IFF is never more than 18 fighters (although two fighters of the IFF can fly off each SPB).

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, January 27, 2023 - 03:23 pm: Edit

Two things

1)Tactic note is about using the SPB, in effect as a province holder due to it's near unique 8 Fighter factors - not a line carrier.

2) Not sure if Mikes post was amended following Graham's post (probably not), but Mike's line is legal as far as I can tell - it's got no more than 18 fighters in use.

I believe, it doesn't matter 2 Carriers have 1 1/3rd squadron each - and neither of the 3 Squadrons or 18 fighter factors rules are breached.

(On a side note, it might explain why the SPB wasn't given the oversized squadron rule, as that potentially would have really messed them up!!).

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Saturday, January 28, 2023 - 07:03 pm: Edit

Hello friends,
Never wrote a tac note before, but I had a couple of ideas and wrote one up today. Stop me if you've heard this before (I looked back in the archives through 2019 and didn't see anything but there could have been something earlier - don't remember when SO came out.) Anyway give me your brutal comments so I can either trash it or polish it to CL material

The Lyran SR - An early-game advantage?
Karl Mangold
USS Montana

Strategic Operations introduced us to new rules/ships related to survey duty a few years back. IMO one of the more interesting additions is the Lyran SR. Most survey ships are based on CA hulls and are not only inferior in most ways to the original CA hull, but can't compete with heavy scouts based on the CA hull. The real value with the Lyran SR is that it is a tug - a tug with scout capabilities. This presents an interesting opportunity for the coalition. They are available turn 1, and though they are limited to one a year, another can also be produced turn 2.
Why bother? The Lyrans only option for a 4-point scout early on is to put an SP+ on a tug, and given there is only one SP+ (or 2KSP once you build them), so the Lyrans get a grand total of one or two 4-point scouts until the NSC is available later in the war. Now, take a SR and add a KSP and that alone bumps the SR to a 4-point scout. You can build 2 KSP which means you can outfit a second SR to make a *third* 4-point scout on turn 2. And if that weren't enough, there is room for another K pod on these SR+KSP ships...consider putting a KBP in the second slot to bump up to CR 10. That way, it can be flagship, get form bonus, and allow another 4EW scout in the free scout box for 8EW before you even form the battle line! Suddenly, it's looking like the Lyrans actually planned for a Kzinti invasion.
So what's the big deal? First of all, with this plan the Lyrans get 3 4-point scouts instead of 2 in the early game. And answer me this; who doesn't love the Fed CVL? Once KVPs are available, the SR can put one of those in the extra pod slot to make a 3-8(3) scout with 2 EW. The factors are the same as the Fed CVL at 4EW, and have a better CR. If you're not impressed with this, just send those SRs off-map to beef up your survey capability.
Given all this, there is probably little reason to build more than 2 SRs, and anyway the Lyrans need to build regular tugs, too. But the early game EW advantage and versatility of the Lyran SR make it a worthwhile consideration to build the first few turns.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, January 28, 2023 - 09:35 pm: Edit

Karl wrote:

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Quote:

Given all this, there is probably little reason to build more than 2 SRs, and anyway the Lyrans need to build regular tugs, too. But the early game EW advantage and versatility of the Lyran SR make it a worthwhile consideration to build the first few turns.

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By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Sunday, January 29, 2023 - 06:32 am: Edit

I suppose if survey ships really are worth it, the Klingons should think about building and deploying them too! (And the Feds and Gorn - Kzinti and Hydrans probably can't afford it.)
But yes, to your point about the EW limit - this only works with K-scout pods; the Lyran's scout pallet would be a waste, and better served on one of the regular tugs. Since 517.12 allows Klingon pods to be mix and matched, you only need one KSP to get to 4EW. That leaves another k-pod slot, which is why I suggested a KBP be paired with it (for CR). This also leaves a spare KSP for a second SR.
In thinking about it though, a better option might be to pair the KSP with a troop pod. The reason being you could then use a MMG to add this ship (effectively a bonus scout) to the battle force for free. You'd just need to be attacking a base or planet, but that's kind of a moot point since you're usually wanting the extra EW over hard points anyway...

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 29, 2023 - 07:53 am: Edit

The trouble with this is, after the first few turns, you are giving up subbing an STT, TG(cheaper and better for a lot of pallets/pods), CV or just building (and converting to something) a CA.

As the Lyrans, I generally do build at least a couple of SRs, but I send them offmap to go survey, which is generally the best use for them, at least until the end game.

Building more works better if you have the balance option letting the Lyrans build a second CA, but otherwise it won't happen very often, if at all.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, January 29, 2023 - 05:55 pm: Edit

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Quote:

the SPB is ungainly

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By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Sunday, January 29, 2023 - 06:22 pm: Edit

I actually agree with you, Richard. This tactic mainly applies to the first few years of the war, since the 4EW advantage requires the KSP pods (which are limited to 2) so only a few would actually be built and used for this purpose. The idea is that the Lyrans can benefit from the extra heavy EW platform in the early game when they are fighting a two-front war. Lyran heavy scouts are hard to come by. The option to accessorize with another k-pod to add fighter factors, or increase CR, or use a MMG to add them for free are all unique benefits over the TG-S, (which is the only 4-point scout the Lyrans can field until Y176.) Is it worth the extra expense over a TGP with a scout pod? I suppose that's up to the individual player. But it's something to consider.
The Lyrans still need to sub STTs and CVs, I also agree. But those ships aren't available at the start of the game, so I think it is worth doing the SR sub instead of just subbing a tug like normal consider this versatile SR option. Once those ships are available, by all means sub them. And when the SRs are no longer needed they can be sent off-map for survey. Win-win.
That's my two cents anyway.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Sunday, January 29, 2023 - 07:56 pm: Edit

I'd say that in the early game it's not worth it just to get another 4 point scout. The Lyrans don't start with none, and they can do CLS conversions for some 3 point scouts if they feel the need (I generally don't). I feel the early possible SRs you can make are best sent offmap to increase your economy, at least in the early game.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 09:26 am: Edit

CLSs aren't standard, but they do make heavy scouts less attractive when they are allowed.
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If people don't think heavy scouts are worth it in the early game, then I guess this tac note is kind of worthless. It makes me wonder, Richard, if you bother building D6Ss early on? By your logic the D5S should be all you really need (there are plenty of other things that D6 hull can be converted to...)

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 10:50 am: Edit

Building a D6S doesn't prevent you from sending a survey ship off map, and the Klingons can do two major conversions a turn, plus substitutions of two or three D6/D7/D7C hulls a turn.

So I do make D6S, which are also cheaper than Lyran SRs. Note that D6S production is limited.

It's a very different situation.

The Lyrans produce one CA hull a turn. In early turns, the Klingons essentially produce FIVE OR SIX a turn, which gives them a lot more leeway when it comes to building variants.

Anyway I am not saying dont do a term paper, just saying that building SRs and NOT sending them offmap is generally sub-optimal.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Makes sense Richard, I think I understand your point better. Part of my rationale here is that the survey ships *do* get sent off-map, just after a few turns when they've had a chance to help bully the Zin and Hydran capitals/SBs. Plus you can always build more later to create, for example, scout carriers, which the Lyrans otherwise don't have.
So perhaps I'll rework this tac note then to remind people the SRs should also be used for their *intended* purpose.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 04:20 pm: Edit

Note that the earliest survey points are worth the most, as any eco they get you will last the whole game. You can't make survey carriers until turn six anyway.


Also note that scout pods and pallets reduce the compot of the tug, making scout / carrier combos less effective.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 07:07 pm: Edit

Karl,

You can also make survey cruisers early, and then convert them into survey carriers in later years (at least after turn 6) so that way you maximize the speed at which you hit survey diminishing returns, and then send several of the SRs on map as carriers.

That way, the CA hulls are delayed going on map until generally when the Klingons attack the Feds.

YMMV.

By Jamey Johnston (Totino) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 07:46 pm: Edit

Does anyone ever (as the Lyran) build a second SB at home? It's a lot of EP (15 on turn 2 and 36 on turn 3), but starting Turn 4 you can do 2 4+ conversions a turn, which is a lot more CA/CC->DNs, and once you're "caught up" on those, opens several other good options like CL->BCs. Not sure if it's worth it, but curious if anyone has seen it done, and if it seemed like a good/bad net effect.