Archive through May 03, 2023
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Federation & Empire: F&E INPUT:
F&E Reports from the Front:
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It's full of stars!:
Archive through May 03, 2023
While the excess in ships would have helped if the die rolls had been (even) worse for the Coalition, such a thing actually happening would have been unlikely. The Hydrans significantly ourtolled the Coalition and generally had a compot of at least 140 and usually over 170 for all 18 rounds of combat.
It was pretty brutal and the Hydrans did not run you out of cruisers. Perhaps if they had never directed at all, but really, that would have been a bad idea.
*FY170.
*Federation:
A5 PWC 4Th Fleet DN 3NCL 3FF
*Kzinti eco A5 FY170
*Survey roll:9 . New total: 44 + 16 = 60 (three provinces).
*Old treasury: 2.4EP 2CP.
*Income:
Offmap: 23 EP
Capital planets: 32EP
On map (not capital) planets 8
On map provinces 3
Orion Smuggling from Marquise grid 0.1.
Marquise Grid: 6EP - 0.2 = 5.8 EP
Total: 66.1.
*New treasury: 68.4 EP 6FFF 2CP.
12 CV(6FFF)
8 BC
23 3MEC 2FF(sub 3CM CL)
12.5 5FF (one offmap)
2.5 FF (Marquise Grid)
Free CP (now 3 CP total)
----------------
55.5 EP Total
Conversions
7 (1401) CVL->CV
---------------------------------------------
7 Total
Repairs
5 (1401) 2CV
1 (OM) EFF
68.5 Total spent
0 EP 3CP remaining. Marquise grid has 3.3EP remaining.
*Hydran eco A5 FY170
*Survey roll: 22 + 13 = 35.
*Income:
19 (offmap)
0 (onmap)
0 Old treasury
*New treasury: 19 EP 1.5FFF(OC SY).
15 New Shipyard T1 of 6
0 free CP (now 1 CP total)
----------------
15 EP Total
Conversions
---------------------------------------------
Total
Repairs
15 Total spent
4 EP remaining. 1 CP.
The Kzintis invite that Orion smuggler captain to a feast at their capital in honor of his efforts to help the Hegemony. Rumors that he was the main course at the feast are false. One Orion could not possibly be sufficient to be the main course for all those Kzinti.
Just an appetizer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iaCu7qAmFdI
Thx for sharing such detailed information about your game. It's fun reading!
--Mike
I don't care who you are, that link was funny right there!
From Richard Eitzen's 3:18 AM post:
Quote:Perhaps if they had never directed at all, but really, that would have been a bad idea.
As someone who doesn't play F&E but who does sometimes follow the "Reports from the Front" (mostly to get a better understanding of the SFU at the political/grand strategic level), I've sometimes wondered how F&E players decide when to direct and when to let the damage fall.
It depends. Sometimes you want to win a hex no matter what and often the best way is to just drop damage. But there are strategic considerations, it's good to destroy high compot ships as these cannot be easily accumulated in number (with some exceptions).
It is also useful to destroy specialty ships.
Alternatively, it is useful to destroy small ships to reduce pin count at a cheap price.
It's complicated, really.
Another classic use of directed damage is to target command ships.
This can be done tactically to try and deprive your enemy of high CR ships in a certain combat hex, or strategically to thin out the enemy's pool of higher CR ships in a certain theater.
--Mike
"It's Complicated" is probably the best answer to this. But broadly speaking, I direct when...
1) A key target must be reduced to preserve my own fleet (PDUs, A well-defended base)
2) I can kill a high-value target that would not ordinarily be vulnerable (CV group, Engineer, FRD)
3) I can create a localized shortage of a key ship type (Escorts, Scouts, Maulers, CR10 ships) that I expect will provide me a future advantage.
4) I plan to fight one round and run.
Thanks for the replies. Some follow-up questions:
Richard; you mention destroying specialty ships and also targeting small ships to reduce pin count. What about directing on "fast" ships, if one is present? If I recall correctly, fast ships count double for pin count and their presence or absence can also give advantages in pursuit.
Mike; would targeting high CR ships ever include using directed damage to cripple (assuming you didn't do enough damage to kill the high CR ship outright)? I don't believe crippling changes a ship's CR but if the enemy only has one CR10 ship in a battle, and the battle will last several rounds, crippling it would either force the enemy to fight subsequent rounds with fewer ships, or put the crippled CR10 ship in the battle force again, fighting one more round with a full battle line but allowing the now-crippled flagship to be easily killed in round 2.
Patrick; you mentioned
Quote:4) I plan to fight one round and run.
I plan to fight one round and run.I assume the same would apply if you had the stronger force and you expected the enemy to fight one round and then run?
There are many kinds of 'specialty ships' that are worth directing, and yes, fast ships are one of those kinds, especially fast DNs.
But you don't do it every time, you have to judge the short term and long term gains and whether it fits your overall goals and your specific goal in the fight you are currently in.
As said previously, it's complicated. If you don't play F&E it may be a bit difficult to grasp all the fiddly bits and trying to fully understand it is probably futile. (I personally wouldn't say I fully understand all the tactics and strategy of F&E and I've been playing a fair bit and for a while).
I recommend playing F&E, by email if you have no local opponents, if you have that much interest in these topics.
Quote:I assume the same would apply if you had the stronger force and you expected the enemy to fight one round and then run?
Alan: Not necessarily. If I expect my opponent is going to run, I may drop damage and hope that I can either kill more than one ship in pursuit or that he'll self-kill more than one to avoid a pursuit. But that math comes down to how much damage I do, what my opponent's force looks like, how many fighters my opponent can take damage on, and what my potential pursuit force would be.
Which brings us back to "It's Complicated"
I have to hand it to SVC. I've been playing this game off and on for 30 years, and I'm still finding situations where I think I was getting that decision wrong.
For me, the first question is what I am trying to accomplish in a particular battle. For example, if it's a close battle, and I want to win the hex, it may be obvious that I should let the damage fall.
A lot of battles are just attrition battles where one doesn't care about the hex. In such cases, the right thing to do is whatever causes the most damage to the opponent. But even that can be unclear. For example, if the opponent is far away from repair points, or if they can't replenish fighters after the battle, then letting it fall may be a better choice than it first appears to be.
And all these tactical decisions are affected by strategic ones.
A force of 4CA 4FF may seem to be a good force to hit a BATS, but a strong reserve would make mincemeat of them, and at that size, they'd HAVE to put up at least three ships, and one would be a CA, making a relatively easy kill of three ships.
The tactics in such a case are less relevant than the decision to move that force to attack a BATS. It is important to send the right force for the job even before you worry about directing or dropping damage.
In the Hydran theatre, they supply 10 ships and move to 0218 unopposed and stop.
The Coalition will get to hit them next turn but lack the sheer numbers needed to force them east, so after that, the Hydrans will be able to reach the old colonies, if they want to.
In the Kzinti theatre, the Kzintis attack three pickets, movement continues.
Yes, cutting off the old colonies isn't actually going to keep the methane-breathers out. It just limits their freedom of action and may end up forcing them back there. Though if I were to do it over again, I would probably leave a fleet at 417 or so, just to give them another obstacle on the way.
Was the likely future lack of Hydran funds the reason why they didn't build a CU at the Old Colony SB?
It's an extra hull and would allow a reserve fleet - but those 2.5 Ep's might help build something better I accept in the future.
It was to save money; such a reserve fleet is unneeded.
Mike; would targeting high CR ships ever include using directed damage to cripple (assuming you didn't do enough damage to kill the high CR ship outright)? I don't believe crippling changes a ship's CR but if the enemy only has one CR10 ship in a battle, and the battle will last several rounds, crippling it would either force the enemy to fight subsequent rounds with fewer ships, or put the crippled CR10 ship in the battle force again, fighting one more round with a full battle line but allowing the now-crippled flagship to be easily killed in round 2.
Yes, that absolutely can happen. Since a formation protected DN (12) takes 36 to cripple and 54 to destroy via conventional DD it can be a two step process, depending on how much COMPOT is available (or if a mauler is available).
Also, if the player with the crippled DN will likely later be pursued, it might make more sense just to put the DN back on the line as it may very well get
destroyed in pursuit anyway. The player may choose to voluntarily clean his fleet of cripples entirely to avoid pursuit altogether.
--Mike
Even so, all of that rarely happens and generally if it does, it is because of error in judgement in allocation of forces to battle hexes.
A canny player, if seeing it likely he will lose the hex and that his opponent has a mauler, will not put a CR10 ship as flagship if it is reasonably possible that the opponent will cripple it, as in that case, pursuit and mauling will almost certainly occur.
If the opponent does not have a mauler, a crippled DN is much less likely to be killed in pursuit as it may take as many as 21 points scored to do the job (assuming it gets to be in formation bonus slot).
In other cases, often if things are bad enough the opponent cripples your DN on the first round, it probably happens when the opponent also has a significant compot or other advantage, such that you don't want to do additional rounds of combat, in which case a crippled DN will not see the line until the pursuit battle as fighting additional normal rounds is probably a poor idea.
{Part of not losing in F&E is to not get into situations like these.
It's complicated.
Otoh, a canny player might deliberately create situations similar to these but with less valuable targets in order to lull the opponent into overconfidence.
Nothing like sending 2CVL CLE to fight a BATS, hoping to draw a reserve and 'stupidly' lose the CLE (which in some ways looks much more valuable than an FF which 'should' have been sent but really isn't).
But wait, you say, a CLE costs 7 EP. I point out that unless you ACTUALLY build one, all your CLEs cost nothing, you got them at game start for free. Their worth is in what they provide you, and what they provide is a low compot heavy escort with a higher than normal salvage value which will probably be replaced by an MEC ASAP.
In full game, those that get crippled and survive pat the early turns tend to get sent to the depot and get unconverted (for free) into a standard CL, which is generally more useful, lol.
TL;DR:
F&E is complicated.
In the Kzinti theatre, the Coalition send two reserves to 1504 letting the small reserves there (most ships pinned out the Kzinti Home Fleet) go and defend the Coalition pickets from attack.
The Kzintis have DN CC 11(!)BC 3CV groups, FF, 2SF.
The Coalition have C8 DN 6D7C(!) CC D6M 2D6 4CW 2DW 2DD 2D5V AD5 F5E D6D DWS.
After six rounds where most damage is dropped, the Kzinti give up the fight and retreat, with 9 BCs, a CV, 3MEC SF crippled, no ship losses. The Kzinti had spent a command point and got lucky and escaped pursuit.
The Coalitions lost a C8 and got 4D7C 2D6 3CW 2DD crippled.
A nasty little battle.
In that battle, I wasn't expecting Richard to spend a command point, but he did. This made the difference for killing the C8, which I had put on the line, thinking it was probably safe. I made a further mistake by not noticing an extra D7C that was in the hex. Had I seen it, I could have had the C8 in form instead of the mauler -- but would still have lost a Lyran DN.
Repair timing on this battle favors the Kzinti, who will be able to repair half a turn sooner than the Coalition.
Just to play devil's advocate :-
"Nothing like sending 2CVL CLE to fight a BATS, hoping to draw a reserve and 'stupidly' lose the CLE (which in some ways looks much more valuable than an FF which 'should' have been sent but really isn't)."
Depending on the strength of the possible reserve, a 2 CVL CLE force might be a lot better than a 2 CVL +FF force - if it's a small reserve fleet - whats the chance the Coalition does 11 or less damage? (Nothing to direct and let fall).
Whats the chance the Coaition does 13 or more damage (can direct on the CLE).
Could the Kzinti get away with taking no damage - whereas the FF would be crippled with 11 damage if it was used (rather than risking a CVL, if 16 damage was done).
Equally, it might also increase the chance the BATS dies for just taking cripples - as your can't leave any owed points with a crippled FF.
So you would be crippling a CVL anyway - as crippling the FF isn't going to probably be enough over say a 3 or 4 round battle.
So sending a sacrifice hull isn't always the right plan.
Did we say it's complicated!!! 