In years gone by the 2nd Lyran SB was a go-to strategy in my group. You can still do it today, or using expansions build some type of minor shipyard to enhance Lyran conversion capacity (which is cheaper). My sense from reading the archives is that today this is not considered a top strategy. I personally like it due to historical preference, and it's more fun than a barrel of monkeys having a lot of DNs and BCs running around the map. As the game progresses, the Lyrans eventually have very few if any CA/CC/CL on the map -- they've all been converted to something else, and new construction is less than conversion capacity.

Note that if choosing the 2nd SB option and playing with AO, one can build that 2nd SB (and precursor BATS) without fighters to save some EPs. The base would probably never be seriously attacked in the Lyran capital hex anyways.

--Mike

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 11:22 pm: Edit

One other SR option to consider is one BP+ pallet or 2xKBP. That yields a 7-12/1-4 CR10 2EW ship, suitable for fleet command with the formation bonus. Since it is a scout it would enjoy (308.52) SELF-DEFENSE and take 39 points of directed damage to cripple -- stronger than a C8 or DN.

One certainly does not have to rob survey capacity to put SR on the map. When it comes time to add a tug to the Lyran fleet for regular tug missions, one could buy SR instead. It can perform all the same missions -- it's a tug. The essential decision point is, does one feel the +2 EW and 5 less attack factors is worth the 5 extra EPs (13 EP vs 8 EP)?

I enjoyed reading your draft term paper Karl. I found the content interesting. I'd encourage you to polish it and move forward with it, even if the content changes based upon feedback. Having a number of experienced players comment on your paper is a sure way to make a better final product -- and one that will be more interesting and valuable to players that read it.

--Mike

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 11:34 pm: Edit

Thanks for the feedback, I'm reworking this a bit, and will have something again in a few days.
My sense, in reading between the lines of PO's rulebook, is that if the G.O.D. had intended Lyran SRs to simply be sent off to survey duty, he would not have made them tugs.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Monday, January 30, 2023 - 11:49 pm: Edit

I recall in my early years of F&E ('93 edition) the 2nd SB at the Lyran capital seemed to be quite the vogue strategy. Though expensive, it gave the Lyrans the ability to make 2 major conversions and crank out 2-3 DNs per turn!
But, it requires the time and expense of building a starbase, and on top of that you still have to pay 5EP for the extra major conversion. With the expansions it is so much easier to just build a major conversion facility for less cost in the short and long term.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Tuesday, January 31, 2023 - 12:07 am: Edit

In theory, you could just never build Lyran tugs and build SRs instead. Yet this never happens.

Why is that?

A TGC costs 8 EP and has 8 compot.
An SR costs 13 EP and has 3 compot and 5 EW.

For any purpose where you want compot, a TGC is obviously better.

That leaves situations (as has been pointed out) where the SR takes non combat pods/pallets. The best combo probably entails a single space scout pod and a single space other pod. But even in such a case, you still pay 13 EP. Essentially, you can get a 4 EW tug with a non EW pod for 13 EP, or you can get a 2 EW tug with the same 2nd pod for 8 EP. Is +2 EW worth 5 EP? I generally say not. YMMV.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Tuesday, January 31, 2023 - 01:40 am: Edit

Again, I don't disagree here. TGCs are for COMPOT; they do very well with BPs and VPs in particular. I like the SR more to the TGP; it's foolish to put a scout pallet on a TGC, for example, because the EW decimates the attack factor. (Nobody's too concerned about scout attack factors anyway if they are being put in the free scout box.)
SRs are expensive though, as Richard points out. More than double the TGP. Yet their flexibility I argue is worth it. Besides getting an extra 4-point scout, they can be sent off-map to bolster survey, perform on-map survey, function as a scout carrier (before those are even a thing), extend reaction zones, function as a CR10 flagship scout with a battle pod, be added to a battle force for free with t-pods and an MMG...and STILL they can do all the regular tug things. To me that adds a lot of options and flexibility to a fleet. Of course it's not everyone's cup of tea. Some would rather take those 5EPs and overbuild an FF, for example. But all in all I think it's worth building at least a couple of SRs. Something to think about anyway

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Tuesday, January 31, 2023 - 06:18 pm: Edit

Reminder, (317.53) drps the tug's AF by 2 per EW point gained, though as teh ST already has EW, not sure if it's 3 AF drops to 2 at some point.

Another option for the Lyrans is their NSR, two EPs less than an SR but it's also a tug and can carry Lyran pallets ... (YIS Y175) ...

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Wednesday, February 01, 2023 - 08:54 am: Edit

The NSR is in fact *better* than the SR; it costs less, has a better attack factor, and still has 2EW. Y175 is 13 turns in, though, so there is definitely a trade-off making the NSR less of a good deal.
If using a scout pod, the SRs AF drops to 2, but it's worth reminding that this is true of any tug with 4EW; even a TGC with SP+ is a 2-8 ship (which is why TGPs should be carrying those.) Anyway the advantage is EW, not AF. You can sort of make up for this with a VP, or (being Lyrans after all) field as many DNs and BCs as possible to make up for the lack of COMPOT.
Thanks again for the ideas, all

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Thursday, February 09, 2023 - 09:02 am: Edit

Here is my more polished Tac Note. Constructive criticism is welcome. I'm a bit worried about brevity.

The Lyran SR - A hidden advantage
Karl Mangold
USS Montana

Strategic Ops introduced us to expanded rules for survey cruisers, and although for most races this represents little more than the opportunity to expand survey capability, for the Lyran player it represents new tactical options.
The reason: the SR is both a scout *and* a tug, which can makes it a valuable early-game EW platform. In the beginning, the Lyrans are leading the charge to conquer the Kzinti, and soon after the Hydrans. Pre SO, the Lyrans could field only one 4EW scout (or two if KSP pods were built)until the NSC in Y175 , while their only other option for scouts are the 2-point SC and DWS. (This is somewhat addressed if your game is allowing CLS conversions.) The SR starts with 2EW; a single KSP to bumps up to 4EW, meaning the Lyrans can field 3 4EW scouts on turn 2. This can be a valuable advantage in the first turns where time is of the essence, and every large fleet battle is likely being fought over a SB or capital. EW advantage (or at least parity) is critical here, and the SR can give you the extra tools to for a successful assault, especially when fighting a two-front war.
It is worth noting that the addition of the KSP pod leaves a K-pod slot unused, which can filled with a KBP to make a backup CR10 ship, or a KVP to add attrition factors. If you decide you don't need heavy scouts anymore, you can add carrier pods/pallet to make an early scout carrier, or, with T-pods you can use an MMG to add an extra 2-point scout to your battle force for free. Also, despite having 1AF lower than the TGP, the scout functions make the SR easier to defend agains a raid/SSC if setting up a base or PDU.
The big downside is the cost. The SR is 5EP more than the TGC, making it the most expensive Lyran tug. Yet there are ways to offset this cost; the SR can perform on-map survey on turns when not needed for military service (542.3), or build colonies for free (542.29.) Of course, they can also simply be sent off-map to bolster survey capability.
The tactical flexibility of the SR is considerable, and underutilized at present. You don't have to use it, but the Lyran SR is definitely worth a look.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, February 09, 2023 - 09:59 am: Edit

Karl you may have a problem with your Tac Note in that it appears to have previously published in Captain's Log #46 LYRANS - DO NOT BUILD TUGS by Lieutenant JG Tom Ostergaard, USS Nevada

Karl, depending on the topic of the Tac Note some good ones are short and others can be wordy. The best ones are the ones that get the point across clearly and concisely. Yours is not the shortest one posted and no where near the longest ones posted and published. My ISC Gunline Group vs Battle Group Tac Note took up 1/2 a page in Captain's Log #44. Others have taken up more space than that.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 03:58 am: Edit

As a TacNote grader, I can tell you that I grade higher for notes that are concise and to the point. SVC calls it the bikini principle, small to make it interesting, but yet enough to cover the subject.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 08:52 am: Edit

IF YOU CAN NOT BLIND THEM WITH BRILLIANCE...

Sometimes one is playing an expert opponent who seemingly sees the plan in everything you do. You can make this more difficult by deliberately doing sub-optimal things. In situations where it doesn't make a lot of difference, go ahead and do things that are not 100% the most effective. In this way, you may get the opponent to underestimate you so that when you end up in a situation where things really count, you may be able to surprise him with competence and pull a victory.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 09:35 am: Edit

Richard, that one is a phenomenal tac note, and oh so true. I've won games doing that. I think you just submitted tac note of the year.

By Mike Curtis (Nashvillen) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 11:33 am: Edit

One of the reasons to play this ftf is the head games you can play on your opponent. Like Richard says. Even if everything is falling off the rails, act like it is going according to plan. It will make your opponent think twice about stuff.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 01:00 pm: Edit

I've done a lot of ftf and email play, and it is relevant in both cases.

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 02:29 pm: Edit

I believe the expression is: The best place to hide something is in plain sight.

--Mike

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 04:26 pm: Edit

@Turtle: Thank you, I didn't know someone had written about this already. I have the compendiums and the last 4 Captain's logs (and follow this bbs) and hadn't seen anything on the topic. CL#46 is one I don't have. Well anyway, it was a nice exercise.

By Karl Mangold (Solomon) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 04:41 pm: Edit

@ Richard:
"To be the first to gain victory, initially display some weakness to the enemy and only afterwards do battle. Then, your effort will be half but your achievement doubled."
-Sun Tzu, from The Six Secret Teachings

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Friday, February 10, 2023 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Karl I'm not saying yours has already been published under that one. Just that the two are similar. Your Tac Note may have enough differences to be considered a new or expanded Tac Note worthy of publication. That has happened before. I'm just saying to read it first and if you feel it is worthy of improvement because of new rules since it was written, by all means put it out there for consideration.

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Thursday, March 09, 2023 - 03:44 pm: Edit

The Case For the HDW-Q
Benjamin Johnson
USS Maryland

It's the Y180s; your economy's in the tank, your survey program is reaching the point of diminishing returns, and your last high risk survey resulted in your survey ship being crippled. What do you do?

Earlier in the game the only thing that you could do was repair it and send it back out but now you've got another option: the HDW-Q.

The HDW-Q has long been derided as a useless waste of a rare hull because it arrives too late to make a difference (except for the Hydrans), it can't do on-map survey and now it doesn't even have it's own off-map slot. But there is a way to turn these weaknesses into a strength: the HDQ-Q can't do on-map survey, but it can free up one of your normal survey ships for that duty. By going ahead and building that HDW-Q you can keep your survey rolls maxed and start reaping the benefits of on-map survey at a time in the game when you are scrambling for every extra EP.

The Lyrans get an extra benefit from this tactic because their SR's and NSR's are also fully functional tugs and you can never have enough of those, especially since the SR and NSR can become 4 EW scouts if given two KSPs. Although bringing an SR or NSR onto the map counts against tug production limits, this merely allows the Lyrans to build some other unit with their CA or NCA slot that a tug would have otherwise displaced while still getting an extra tug.

So go ahead and build that HDQ-Q. It might just make the difference.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Thursday, March 09, 2023 - 06:54 pm: Edit

Hmmm, is that giving each (SR/NSR) one KSP or two each??

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Thursday, March 09, 2023 - 08:39 pm: Edit

Note for Typo in Benjamin's last sentence should be HDW-Q instead of HDQ-Q (pretty sure the editors would catch this before publishing but just in case).

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Sunday, March 19, 2023 - 07:58 am: Edit

The Case For the HDW-Q (revised)
Benjamin Johnson
USS Maryland

It's the Y180s; your economy's in the tank, your survey program is reaching the point of diminishing returns, and your last high risk survey resulted in your survey ship being crippled. What do you do?

Earlier in the game the only thing that you could do was repair it and send it back out but now you've got another option: the HDW-Q.

The HDW-Q has long been derided as a useless waste of a rare hull because it arrives too late to make a difference (except for the Hydrans), it can't do on-map survey and now it doesn't even have it's own off-map slot. But there is a way to turn these weaknesses into a strength: the HDQ-Q can't do on-map survey, but it can free up one of your normal survey ships for that duty. By going ahead and building that HDW-Q you can keep your survey rolls maxed and start reaping the benefits of on-map survey at a time in the game when you are scrambling for every extra EP.

The Lyrans get an extra benefit from this tactic because their SR's and NSR's are also fully functional tugs and you can never have enough of those, especially since the SR and NSR can become 4 EW scouts if given one of the two KSPs. Although bringing an SR or NSR onto the map counts against tug production limits, this merely allows the Lyrans to build some other unit with their CA or NCA slot that a tug would have otherwise displaced while still getting an extra tug.

So go ahead and build that HDW-Q. It might just make the difference.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Sunday, March 19, 2023 - 10:27 pm: Edit

Minor error, if the Lyrans bring an SR on map. it does not count as a tug build (540.24) ...

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Sunday, March 26, 2023 - 03:52 am: Edit

The Case For the HDW-Q (revised)
Benjamin Johnson
USS Maryland

It's the Y180s; your economy's in the tank, your survey program is reaching the point of diminishing returns, and your last high risk survey resulted in your survey ship being crippled. What do you do?

Earlier in the game the only thing that you could do was repair it and send it back out but now you've got another option: the HDW-Q.

The HDW-Q has long been derided as a useless waste of a rare hull because it arrives too late to make a difference (except for the Hydrans), it can't do on-map survey and now it doesn't even have it's own off-map slot. But there is a way to turn these weaknesses into a strength: the HDQ-Q can't do on-map survey, but it can free up one of your normal survey ships for that duty. By going ahead and building that HDW-Q you can keep your survey rolls maxed and start reaping the benefits of on-map survey at a time in the game when you are scrambling for every extra EP.

The Lyrans get an extra benefit from this tactic because their SR's and NSR's are also fully functional tugs and you can never have enough of those, especially since the SR and NSR can become 4 EW scouts if given one of the two KSPs.

So go ahead and build that HDW-Q. It might just make the difference.