This is a new game between Allies Tim Losberg and Dallas Wagner vs the Coalition of Todd Lovas and Me.

This is Dallas's 4th Game but first time as the Allied Empires. Tim will be coaching him. As Todd is terribly busy a majority of the time he will be the Lyran player to my Klingon.

Its a GW set up (using all the rules available) with some options restricted.
1) Limited use Diplomats: We eliminated the NZ planet diplomacy dance regulating them to Capital Trade bonus only.
2) No E&S, Rebellion, or Advanced Raids
3) We are not using the new Leader variant ships from Tac Ops for simplicity sake and are sticking with the original leader bonus rule.

We will play most every other Monday at a convenient time for the players involved. Players in no particular order are located as follows 2 in California, 1 in Michigan, 1 in Ireland.

Oh and we are using Vassal and Discord as the platforms for this conflict. (Obviously as F2F would be near impossible.)

By Mike Erickson (Mike_Erickson) on Wednesday, July 10, 2024 - 10:41 am: Edit

Good luck to all!

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Wednesday, July 10, 2024 - 12:08 pm: Edit

Looking forward to reports!

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Wednesday, July 10, 2024 - 01:08 pm: Edit

Are you giving the Alliance any Balancing Option Points?

1) - Probably is a wash - Coaltiion might be happier to capture the planets rather than risk them switiching sides .

2) Pretty majoly Pro-Alliance??

E&S - Marginally Pro-Coalition due to having more Ep's to waste on missions??
Rebellion - Other than very late.... Alliance will not lose planets they capture!!!
Advanced Raids - Blockaid Run are possibly a modest Kzinti loss (Wyn trade!) Fighrer and PF raids arre probably a wash...
3) Leader Rules - No idea what the noew rules are.... but I am guessing it's a Wash or very minor Coalition benefit lost.

So - removing 2) perhaps helps the Coalition more???

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Wednesday, July 10, 2024 - 03:38 pm: Edit

No balance points either way.

The main idea for losing the diplomatic back and forth over the NZ planets was 1) we often found ourselves forgetting the rolls. 2) the elimination of the math involved with the tracking empires captures: At peacetime status each would earn only 50% of that planets income, income at limited war at 75%, and empires at full war at 100% multiplied by the number of turns at these levels. 3) save the ships units to use toward the war. 4) lucky rolls...I had used a diplomat to flip the planet between the Kzinti/Klingons in a face to face game which was fun but kind of unbalancing as I was able to then push the Kzinti back and hold that planet undevastated for turns 2-10 (+27 EPs).

We will do normal raids (provincial, commando raids, and blockade runs) I guess I meant no large raids (drone raids etc).

The leader rule vs ships was a toss up but since the vassal set up came without the TO ships in the mix we elected to stick to what we knew with the new guy.

I would say these decisions are not shifting the balance all that much as we typically have never played with rebellion. As much fun as I think the E&S rules are they don't agree, so I was overruled to save the sequence and speed the game.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Wednesday, July 10, 2024 - 04:23 pm: Edit

Logistically I am attempting the following economic building strategies from several tac notes simultaneously in order to generate a possible white paper on the Economics of the Coalition war machine.

•Maximization of Survey Ships for the Coalition. Adding a Prime Team.
•Use of High Risk Survey as often as possible (meaning if I have at least 4 survey ships available)
•Maximize the use of the existing APT/PTR for transferring money using the free strat moves they have and to free up the tugs
•WYN Trade (mostly through Blockade Running and with the Lyran DWT sending 4EPs in/ 5 EPs out and the Klingon LTT from Turn 2 taking 4EPs in/ 7EP out)
•Colony building for the first 10 turns (minimum). More on this to come.
•Building an extra COE on T4 for each the Lyran and Klingon (they will pay for themselves easily over time, beginning with using their bonus on T5)
•Building ALL MSY simultaneously from T4 forward (including the MCF but not the mCFs) This is going to make me look crazy because I will use Convoys and existing COE/Tugs to get a maxed start on T4. More on this to come.
•Smart damage absorption: Building Fighter platforms to send fighters forward to soak damage where possible. Using efficient ships to absorb damage like BattleTugs and CC/D7C and 5 point DD/F5s. Crippling Cruisers when I wish to convert them using CDR to save some costs.
•Maximize the DEPOT to save on repairs. Mostly this will be the Cruisers to the FFs...I will pay repair the Tugs and Command Ships and the Maulers of course)
•No FRD Park (well not the traditional style anyway) I tend to build only 1-2 extra but then generate PRDs from T4 all over the map (yes one at a time) as they are cheaper to build. The more mobile FRD will be used/needed later for pushing offensives.
•Not overburdening the conversion yards early on to maximize the investment into the economy. You will see me do a few conversions or cheaper conversions like the L-CA>CC to get that Compot Bump and increase the damage absorption rate.
•Escorting the Commercial Convoy with FLG/PV/POL to reduce the potential for raiders success (scout bump and fighters) and taking the "smart" path over bases and planet on my way to trade.
•Upgrading the SB at 1009 to shorten the path for the Commercial Convoy and provide an alternate location to build a few MSY (besides the NR/SR SBs).
•Capture the maximum NZ hexes, disrupt/devastate/capture the maximum amount of my enemies space and planets.

I will discuss my combat strategies in more detail later as none of my opponents really read the board and we are playing a teaching game anyway so if they know they know.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Thursday, July 11, 2024 - 03:04 am: Edit

Your game - but by pulling certain rules out, it does mean any 'Paper' done on the game will automatically be flawed when viewed against the normal rules - as it's possible for commentators to say "You played the game with modified rules, to make it easier for a particlar strategy to work".

It doesn't invalidate the White Paper, but you will need to add so many additional comments to highlight what might have happened with 'normal rules', in effect it's an alterantive White Paper based on alternative rules.

Good Luck though!

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, July 12, 2024 - 01:12 pm: Edit

Paul you are very correct. That said, even the smallest tactical notes suffer from this skewing.

Therefore the title might be...

Economic Grains of Salt: Polyculture in your Money Tree Orchard

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, July 12, 2024 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Turn 1C: (From the Google Sheet)

Lyran Turn 1 Econ
Carry FWD 0
Income 115
DIP Bonus 5
ADS borrow 0
Total EPs: 120

Repairs: 0.0

Production: 89.5
BC, SR with Survey Line, 4CW, 3DW, 2FFT, FF(OM), JGP-COG
FRD, 2 CON (OM), FLG, POL, PT

Conversions: 18.0
CA>DNL (CAP), CL>CLS(608), 3CA>3CC (404), FF>FFS (OM)

Expenses:
WYN Investment 4
WYN Return 0
Salvage 0
Carry Over 8.5

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, July 12, 2024 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Klingon Turn 1C

Klingon T1 Econ (From the Google Sheet)

Carry FWD 0
Income 142.0
DIP Bonus 5
ADS borrow 10
Total EPs: 157.0

Repair: 0.0

Production: 124.5
D6M(sub), TGA(sub), D6E(sub) w/Survey Line, D5S(sub), D5, FV(sub), 6D5, FV(sub), F5L, 4F5, E4T(sub), 2E4, E4A(free)
2 CON(1509), 2POL, Prime

Activations: 6.0
2D6, 2F5, E4(Free), E4G, E3A

Convert: 21.0
D6>D6S, D6>D6M, E4>E4R, FTL>SAF

Expense: 0
WYN Invest 4
WYN Return 0
Salvage 0
Carry Over: 1.5

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, July 12, 2024 - 06:27 pm: Edit

Turn 1C Action Report:

Lyran forces attacked from the deepest positions first hitting the Kz_BTS 703, 803. They occupied 601 NZ with a small force. The Red Claw approached the Counts SB at 802 but when Kzinti didnt come out they pounced backward on 703.

Kzinti RESV went to 0803 as the larger Lyran Fleet was on 703.

Both BTS died and the defended one cost the Lyran Crippled 4 CL, 3 DD. Everyone Z & L retreated from 0803 (Kz to 802, Lyran to 704) no pursuit as the Z was out of fighters

Non Attack Notable Moves:
DWT entered the Raid Pool and made a blockade run delivering 4EP to the WYN.
ENG moved from CAP to 0109 to begin a Colony for Zero EP
Home Fleet 2FFT Moved to RC SB and Joined with the RC-FFT for form a 3xFFT group.

Retros The Kz border L-BTS each get a lyran Crippled DD, 2 crip CLs went back to the RC SB and 2 crip CLs went back to the SB at 0608.
The Lyrans stayed forward deployed beyond that with Fleets of 7 ships 601, 12.5 ships in 704, 42 ships in 0703.

Strats:
New construction BC, DNL+PT, 4CW, 3DW, 2FFT, FF (Became RESV#1)

Klingons: (Had Set up against the Expedition placing elements of the Home fleet in 1212 and 1413, West Fleet Elements in 1214 and 1415.)

Notable moves:
E4T blockade run 4 EPs to WYN.
ComCon and 2 POL CAP to 1210 (joining a 3rd POL)
ENG CAP to 1509 to begin Colony for Zero EPs
2 new E4 CAP to BTS 908
Klingon North (set up), added the Red Fleet (new construct free strats) in 1407 for a total of 60 Ship EQs.

At the end of the turn:
4 NZ captured by the Lyrans and two of which are occupied (601 and 704), 0ne Kzinti Province Disrupted.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Friday, July 12, 2024 - 06:55 pm: Edit

T1A: Kzinti (from the Vassal file)

Kzinti Econ was only reduced by 1 EP.
Kzinti gave up a regular SR to do High Risk Survey roll and produced a Kzinti Colony in their OM (Lucky)

Kz Production: CV, CLD, DD, 2FF, PT
Conversion was BC>SR with Survey Line

T1A: Action
DNL from Raid pool raided 0101 and killed the POL call up: -1EP to the Lyran Econ next time.
The Count and Dukes fleet did not attack but moved back to their respective SBs. I guess they didnt want to pull another 35 ships into range of the capital.

FULL RESV #1 and #2 set up in the capital ready for T2C

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, July 13, 2024 - 07:51 am: Edit

No escorts built / converted for the new CV?

Also, I don't think the Klingon blockade run is legal. Per 314.11:
=====
Empires in Pre-War phases (including the Klingons on Turn #1) cannot send ships on raids or transfer ships into the Raiding Pool; exception (314.3).
=====
(314.3 deals with Romulan and Klingon pre-war raids on the Feds.)

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Saturday, July 13, 2024 - 01:55 pm: Edit

I will check the Kzinti for additional conversions

I agree Jason with the rules you site
I thinks we were under the assumption of the ruling made on Tuesday July 12 2011 which said:
AND A FEW MORE QUESTIONS
Q: Can the Klingons perform WYN trade via blockade running on Turn #1 of the General War? They definitely accumulate trade rights then (449.11). However, (601.161) forbids Klingon ships from leaving their territory on Turn #1 of the GW scenario. I find no enabling rule that provides an exception to (601.161); so my guess is that the answer to my question is “no.” However, it makes little sense to me to negotiate trade rights and then be unable to actually trade. So, maybe there’s an oversight somewhere and it’s meant to be allowed for the Klingons to blockade run EPs to the WYN on Turn #1? Hence, it’s possible that the answer might be “yes.”
A: The Klingon Empire can use a blockade run to go and return from the WYN Cluster in the Raid Phase (3A). This allows the Klingon Empire to send a transport ship clandestinely to the WYNs to exchange Economic Points with the WYN Cluster.


The answer is not specific to turn 1 although the Q was intentionally asking about it

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Saturday, July 13, 2024 - 07:05 pm: Edit

Ah... Stuff buried in old Q&A threads. The curse of F&E players everywhere. Thanks for pointing that out.

By Benjamin Lee Johnson (Jedipilot24) on Sunday, July 14, 2024 - 01:13 pm: Edit

Survey Ships count against the Scout Substitution Limit:

https://www.starfleetgames.com/discus/messages/37/27818.html?1313780022

Q: (542.11) states that a Survey Ship may be built as new construction for 5 EPs more than the build cost of the base hull. (Fed SR would cost 13 EPs + 3EPs for an additional survey slot if this was not a replacement for the CVL below) It also states that SRVs (Fed CVL) would add the cost of fighters and count against the medium carrier limits.
Do Survey Ships count against the limit of new construction scouts? I.E. I build a SR to send Off Map to replace the CVL that is on Map when the Federations goes to Limited War or The Klingons Invade on Turn 7.

A: It is not the survey ship or the scout that is the restriction. It is the diamond symbol which is scout channels that is the limitation. So, yes, they do count with new construction. Conversions do not count. (432.41)

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, July 14, 2024 - 06:39 pm: Edit

Ben, good to note.

As it is the same financial expenditure the Klingon production is noted with the following change.
E4R(sub) for E4. Math: 3.5 [+6] = 9.5 = 6+1 +2.5

Conversion noted with the following change:
D5>D5S converted during construction. Math 8 = 8 = 5+3

This swap cost 1+6-3= +4 EP to the final production
This swap cost 3-7=-4 EP to the conversion costs noted
Everything happened in the capital and there was enough facilities to handle the swap.

Good catch

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, July 15, 2024 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Update:
Additionally in terms of T1 Coalition damage I missed reporting:
a z-CLE was crippled (and as such repaired on T1A)
a Lyran CA and 2FF were also crippled

T1A from the Kzinti Production:
a z-CL was was converted to a CLE and 2 FF to EFF (one in the Barony)

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, July 15, 2024 - 04:17 pm: Edit

Turn 2C: (From the Google Sheet)

Lyran Turn 2 Econ
SR Rolls: +20 = 29 total (+1 Province)
Carry FWD 8.5
Income 116.8
DIP Bonus 5
ADS borrow 5
Total EPs: 135.3

Repairs: 10.0
3 DD(BTS 502,504,705), CL(608), CL (404), CA,2FF (408)

Production: 83.5
DN, SR (sub) with Survey Line, 4CW, 3DW, 2FFT, FF(404)
2 CON (OM), POL, PT

Conversions: 23.0 - 2.0 (CDR) = 21.0
CA>DN (CAP), 2FTS>SAF (CAP), CL>CLS(608), CL>CLV, FF>FFS (404), CA>CC, FF>FFS (OM), 3CA>3CC (411)

Expenses:
WYN Investment -4.0
WYN Return +5.0
Col Dev: 0,-1
Transfer to Klingon: -5.0
Salvage 0
Carry Over 11.8


Turn 2C: (From the Google Sheet)

Klingon Turn 2 Econ
SR Rolls: +6 = 13 total (+HRS role "6" crip SR)
Carry FWD 1.5
Income 142.0
Interest: -1.0
DIP Bonus 5
ADS borrow 15
Total EPs: 162.5

Repairs: 0.0

Production: 133.5 (-4 fff)
C8, D7E (sub) with Survey Line, D6M(sub) LTT(sub), 8 D5, F5L(sub), 5 F5, E4(1509), E4(1716), E4(2318), E4A(free)
MMG, CON (1509), CON(1716), SFG kit, FRD, 2POL, PT

Conversions: 21.0
D6>D6M (CAP), D6>D6S(CAP), D5>D5S (CAP), E4>E4S(1509), E4>E4S(1716), 2E4>2E4A(2318), E4>E4S(2318)

Swarm roll: +6 (Added to T1 total 2+6 = 8)

Expenses:
Colony Dev (2): 0-1
WYN Investment: -4.0
WYN Return: +7.0
Transfer from Lyran: +6.0
Salvage 0.0
Carry Over 9.0

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, July 15, 2024 - 07:04 pm: Edit

Coalition Turn 2 Action:

Lyran attacks:
Capture of NZ Hex 805 (5 total now)
BTS 701 (un-opposed) against 12 SEQ
Counts SB with 23 SEQ vs Lyran 38.5 SEQ
BTS 1004 (un-opposed) against 11 SEQ

Klingon Attacks:
Capture of every NZ hex from 1506 westward to 0905
Capture of every NZ hex from 806 south to 913
Capture of NZ hexes 2619, 2618, 2617
Minor 1105 (un-opposed) against 19 SEQ
BTS 1205 (un-opposed) against 15 SEQ
BTS 1405 (un-opposed) against 22 SEQ
Dukes SB with 25 SEQ vs Klingon 52 SEQ

Kzinti RESV #1 & RESV #2 both went to the Dukes SB to add 24 ships and 25 fighters to the fight.

End result was
Allied Casualties:
devastation and capture of 1105
Count SB (2 SIDS)
Dead: fighters and destruction of z-BTS 701, 1004, 1205, 1405
Cripples: 2 BC, EFF

Coalition Casualties:
Dead: fighters
Cripples: 3CC, CA, CL, DD, 2FF & F5

The Lyran attack on the Counts SB started poorly (rolled a 2 shifted to 1) and it didnt get better, after the second round of crap rolls the Lyran chose to bug out to 903.
The Klingon also decided not to engage the Dukes fleet over their SB while at just parity in numbers.

At the end of the Turn only cripples retrograded back to repair facilities.
A force of 31 Lyrans sits below the Counts SB with its 21.5 SEQs.
10.5 Lyran ships are in 701.
A force of 51 Klingons sits below the Dukes SB with its 52.5 SEQs.
In Range of the Z-Cap (now) is the above forces plus an additional 69 Coalition ships plus two 12 ship K-reserves
Lyran full RESVs are #1 at the RC-SB and #2 at BTS 705.

Supporting the Z Capital is 9 warships and 11 Auxes. We expect the Barony will arrive and the Marquis will send help.

Notable moves behind the scenes:
Lyran ENG continued its ColDev in 109 (2/3) for zero cost.
Lyran FFT sent to join 2FFT RC SB (404) to begin Colony Dev (1/3)
Lyran FFT sent to 104 for future Colony Dev (planned)
Far Stars Arrived and split off paying for some Strat Moves, sending some ship to bolster RESVs. The Lyran also sent 5 EPs (with APT/PTRs) to the Klingon as well as a Tug to eventually deploy a MB in the Klingon Capital.
Some FarStars ships (6) set up at 109 defending the BTS and Colony under development (in case of wiseguys)

Tholian TBS Tug to 1009 BTS for future SB upgrade (see tacnote by J.Laform)
Rest of TBS was split to bolster RESV. They did leave behind a D6 at the TBS SB with the 2 E4A
Klingon ENG continued its ColDev in 1509 (2/3) for zero cost.
Klingon sent 3 Theatre Transports to 1811 to begin a ColDev (1/3)
Both RESV are at 1507
Klingon SR limps back to Lyran OM SB.

By Stewart Frazier (Frazikar3) on Monday, July 15, 2024 - 07:07 pm: Edit

… F5L(sub), 5 F5 …

Technically, the F5L is normal and one of the F5s is a downsub from an F5L [F5Q = F5L + 2 F5] …

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Monday, July 15, 2024 - 08:14 pm: Edit

I meant F5V subbed from an F5L...the Google sheet I use has things in columns of proposed builds and actual and I copied it down and forgot to slide the FV over.

I also downgraded one F5L to an F5.

So as you say of the 2 F5Qs I did...
F5L > FV
F5L > F5
2F5
2F5