But you have to remember, that there is limitations on what the GP powers can field.

As to ships.

This is what I had, when I made up my scenario.

1) Any route may only have 1 Command Rating 10 ship in its force.
2) Only 1 scout, only 1 PFT, and only 1 carrier. A SCS counts as both a PFT and a carrier.
3) A force can be composed of only 1 Dreadnought class ship, 5 Cruiser/War Cruisers ships, and up to 6 War Destroyer/Destroyer/Frigates class ships. Only 3 ships in the force may be War Cruisers or War Destroyers (escorts versions are not counted toward this limit.) Count the escorts from Carrier groups toward each limitation of Cruisers and Destroyers. (A CVA/SCS counts as 1 DN ship, 1 CA ship, and 2 DD ships.)
4) A free Scout is not included in any battleforce, it counts toward the limitations of Cruisers-class and Destroyer-class ships.
5) A Carrier or PFT may send its fighters forward and stay out of the battle. This does not mean an additional Carrier/PFT may be allocated to the battleforce.

And of course, it could be 'massaged' a little before publication. But it's a start.

So it's not like the GP's have a BattleGroup, and 6 other ships (because of an Admiral) and a DNH there.

So limits on GP forces can be set up. And it can all be "explained" by supply of the ships so far from home.

By Joseph A. Mannino (Joemannino) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 09:47 pm: Edit

Pick the route with ships from U6.3:

Route #1: Gorn SCS, HDA, Rom SupH, ISC CC, CA, Gorn 2 BDE, BDL, 2 ISC DD. Compot 109.

Route #2: Fed SCS, 2 NAC, GSC, Z-BC, F-FFE, 3 T-DD, Z-FFK. Compot 98.

Route #3: B10, H-LM, H-LB, L-STT, L-PFW, FX, 2 F5L, F6, F5. Compot 107.

If the Andros spread their forces their compot is: 87, 87 and 62. It is more pitiful if they keep the Dominators together. Never mind free scouts...

Then, the Andros can only replenish a mamba per turn (new motherships will come with their sat ships). A Mamba is about a Python, which would be 7 sat ship factors replenished. Meanwhile, the galactic powers can put up those lines once or twice more, shuffling SCS's, as well as crusiers. There will be no sat ships left very quickly, never mind if a Dominator is directed upon. It just is not competitive. Thus, something else neeeds to be done.

Joe

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 10:33 pm: Edit

Remember that the Galactics have NO repair with them (ie no CEDS). I'd guess it takes a minimum of 3 turns to turn around a ship for repairs (and about the same for a replacement), and even then they have a rather limited force pool. So the Andros have to inflict casualties trading time, space and satships for cripples.

The question is what do the Galactic forces look like after 4 turns of battle?

Perhaps the Galactics should be treated as being out of supply (or maybe with limited supplies).

By Joseph A. Mannino (Joemannino) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 11:03 pm: Edit

Count it out on the most equal route, #2, with equal rolls and no mauling and no EW:

Round 1: Compot: 95 Andros vs 98 F,Z,T.
Damage: 37 to Andros, 35 to FZT. 37 SS for the Andros, FFE, 2 DD's, FFK, 1 fighter.

Round 2: Compot: 58 vs 70.
Damage: 26 to Andros, 22 to FZT. another rest SS and cripple Int, destroy NAC, DD and a fighter.

Round 3: Compot: 40 vs 58. Damage: 15 vs 22. FZT can wipe out fighters, Andros destroy Int and SatB.

Round 4: None, as Dominator ran like hell.

Net: Empty Dom (now extend that to all routes, with only 7 total sat ships to be replenished). No fighters, escorts for Feds.

Next turn can form: Z-SCS, 2 MAC, DWA, F-GSC, T-NCA, Z-BC, 3 Z-FFK, F-FF for compot 98. Replace an Int here, but the Dominator is not up to full strength. A smaller mothership is another option, but does not help the numbers much.

Overall, the numbers just get worse, as each route has 2 or 3 SCS's, and can put up new lines and the Andros just can not keep up. That is the problem, as there is just no chance for the Andros to be competitive.

Joe

By David Kass (Dkass) on Friday, March 14, 2003 - 11:25 pm: Edit

I'm not sure why the Andro doesn't have a full force the second turn. They start with a signficant sat ship reserve.

With a full force, the results would be similar to first round (ie dead INT for 6 more ships). Now what does the FTZ do for the third turn? Neither SCS has the escorts (or fighters) to go back on the line. They probably have to build a force around a BCH or maybe even a CC.

Perhaps the Andros should receive half their sat ship factors lost each turn to represent crippled sat ships (ie with fighter factors, they're either alive or killed, no crippled state). Or maybe just to make it easy, give them unlimited sat ships...

P.S. Note that I said 4 turns not 4 rounds. Or the time to kill all the satb and reach the Desacrator.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 12:56 am: Edit

I don't understand what the supply problem is (does this come from SFB?), the GP's will build MB and they will have a supply path for at least one race on each path and the others could be adpoted by that race (realisiticly they will stack MB's and have a military convoy on each path for each race on that path). They have strat moves and will send new ships every turn up the path. Even at full exhaustion their economic advantage is so pronounced they could just destroy ships and use the new arrivals to replace them.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 01:21 am: Edit

Repair and ship replacement problems are definitely from SFB (and I extrapolated to the lack of CEDS). These are due to the extreme length of the supply path (and the fact that it crosses the galactic barrier).

I was suggesting supply problems as a balancing factor. There are some limits on supply in the SFB OpUnity campaign (max total drone points, limited fighter/PF replacements).

Erik, I'm not sure why a lack of CEDS during OpUnity would be a problem in F&E as it is. It just makes carriers less powerful than normal. This gives a slightly different dynamic to the game, is that bad? I wasn't suggesting it for the Andro Invasion scenario.

By Joseph A. Mannino (Joemannino) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 07:42 am: Edit

I'm not sure why the Andro doesn't have a full force the second turn. They start with a signficant sat ship reserve.

OK, now I see. By U6.41, I thought there are no extra Sat Ships. Assigning all the bays in the motherships uses up all the SS for the time we played Op Unity. Then the same as a carrier, the SS could not be pulled from the forces not involved in the battle force.

With a full force, the results would be similar to first round

Agreed.

Perhaps the Andros should receive half their sat ship factors lost each turn to represent crippled sat ships (ie with fighter factors, they're either alive or killed, no crippled state). Or maybe just to make it easy, give them unlimited sat ships

That would also work to make the Andros more competitive. Like anything else, it'll need to be playtested once SVC says how he wants this to work.

Combine that with the proposed RTN ability to not attack the entire BF, and maybe the Andros get scary....

Being out of supply and downgrading the GP's forces is harder to justify, as MB's are built in each area as the GPs advance (U6.282).

Joe

By Greg Ernest (Grege) on Saturday, March 15, 2003 - 11:57 am: Edit

For comparing Unity ComPot totals, don't forget the SatShip 'PFs' from J2... That adds another 12 or 24 compot to your base. And that base could be a BATS, you know!


Sat Ship counters idea:

All we need are some SS coins.

When you begin to resolve the battle hex, pick the coins up to the limits provided for each mothership. This way, the maulers or scouts will be distinctly represented in each battle hex and can be directed upon individually.

Over time, the Andros used bigger and bigger SatShips which had more staying power. So on the Andro SIT, these different types of SS coins would become available for selection and use.

As for using SS to hold hexes, only Pythons and freighters have a DisDev. We don't do freighters much in F&E, so we can ignore them. The Pythons would have their own independent production rate, as they could be used as Raiders or province raiders.

But if we add cute rules for the tactical use of the DisDev, these little guys could become a real pain.

My biggest question strategically about the Andros has always been this: how do you account for any extra ships (like SS) just waiting at a base, or which are there to be repaired? Sure, you can only put 2 DisDev ships in the line, but what about the guys who just 'happen to be there'?

Example: An INT gets shot-up on the Andros turn and goes back to the nearest BATS for repairs. During the Galactic turn, they find the base and attack. The Andro player respondes by sending a Reserve of two other motherships to defend the base.

Under typical command rules, you might be able to include the crippled INT assuming it never uses it's DisDev (or if it has a DisDev when crippled). But what would happen here?

Also, will SatShips be able to OpMove without a Mothership? What if Mom gets DDed by a larger Galatic force? Will the SatShips be able to run away? Or are they "Slow Units", like an overloaded Tug or an Aux?

So many questions... so little time for SVC. :-)

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 05:37 pm: Edit

Unity was launched to stop the Andros from remounting their attack. It was found out that the base in the LMC was staging the assault into the galaxy. The Galactics decided to take the iniative & stop the Andros (at least for the time being). Additionally, the Andros have 17 mother ships and get 1 new one per turn...

Also, Unity is the perfect example for a single pool of ships for the Andros. That's exactly what happens in Unity. An Andro force could be at Area A of route 1 on the first turn and on the 2nd, could return to the LMC, then go all the way back down to the Milky way on route 2. In that same time, the galactics can move 1/4 of the way from 1 galaxy to another.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 10:48 pm: Edit

Ok - see if this makes a difference then.

Andros can redeploy freely between routes. The Galactics can pull a ship out for 1 turn & transfer it to a different route. That indicates that it takes longer for a Galactic Power ship to redeploy than an Andro over the RTN.

Stewart,
I'm not sure that I said anything that countered that, but I didn't intend to. It's very uncommon in Unity for the Andros to reconfigure sat ship hangars (at least from what I've seen).

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, March 16, 2003 - 11:46 pm: Edit

One thing with using the "routes" or whatever. The game as played ends up with tons of ships that just aren;t there according to history.

The Andros must be able to "hit and fade".

I would think that the Andro player would have a seperate map, on this map the RTN network is kept track of i.e. positions of BATS,SatBases etc. As long as a mothership can get to the RTN, then it can get back to the LMC Starbase and get refilled/swap, etc.

What if the Andron can "retro" along the RTN during both their phase and during the opponents phase. And that is only if they choose to stay on the map for the galactics to attack them.

I would think that the Andros can strike and then disappear, as long as there is an RTN node within retro range of their battles. So, they fight, retro, then they can strat all their ships if they wish along the RTN. This would give them a huge advantage, and thus more of a threat. You never know what or where they are going to appear and strike.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 21, 2024 - 01:00 pm: Edit

It might be worth establishing exactly which ships are historically noted as having taken place in Operation Unity - or, indeed, to clarify which ones are specifically noted as having been left in the Alpha Octant instead - so as to be able to draw up as accurate a Unity order of battle as possible.

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In the case of the Federation, two X1-ships are named as having been sent to the LMC: the CX NCC-1776 USS Bunker Hill (which served as the flagship of Star Fleet's Unity task force) and the GSX NCC-1821 USS Sakharov.

Beyond this, it's suggested in the R-section data for the Federation NASX that one of these classes might have been part of the initial expedition, yet apparently was withdrawn prior to reaching the LMC proper. In the "standard" timeline, exactly which ship of this class is as yet unknown; per the Darwin story in Captain's Log #54, the NASX sent as part of the "dark future" timeline's Operation Codominion was NCC-1686 USS Oppenheimer.

Per Module X1R, it's noted that the X1-ships based on "peacetime construction" builds of "wartime construction" designs have a lower endurance level than X1-ships based on hulls that had been "peacetime construction" designs from the keel up. Thus, no NAXs were assigned to the Unity task force; while the DWX is noted as "not having a large presence in Operation Unity".

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As for the Klingons: it's noted that the DX Kumerian was the flagship of their Unity task force; it was accompanied by the FX Barbarian. Both units are depicted in the (MSH9.0) Joint Operations scenario from Module C5, which is set in the LMC in Y202.

In keeping with the Federation example, the issue of endurance levels also adversely affects the potential for Klingon X1-ships based on "peacetime construction" builds of "wartime construction" designs to be sent to the LMC. Most such units in Module X1R are specifically noted as not being selected for use in Operation Unity; one partial exception is the D5PX Rover's Redoubt, which is noted as having been used to ferry gunboat flotillas to front-line task forces on numerous occasions.

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In the case of the Romulans, it's noted that a NovaHawk-X command cruiser was assigned to be the flagship of their Unity task force. However, the R-section data in Module X1R does not specify which one of the named ships of this class this actually was.

It is noted that the SparrowHawk-CX Blood Vision was not assigned to the Unity task force, as it had been assigned the survey (SPSX) mission within the Alpha Octant by this point in time.

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Per their respective R-section notes in Module X1R, neither the Lyran Empire nor the ISC sent any of their X1-ships to the LMC as part of Operation Unity.

The (SL300) Backstabbed By A Thief scenario from Captain"s Log #43, set in the LMC in Y205, lists the ISC CS Equality and DD #672 as being active there at that time. Although it's not specified as to whether or not these ships had been part of the Concordium's Unity task force, or were deployed to the Cloud at some point thereafter.

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The above is far from a complete list, but should at least help begin this process - on the of chance that anyone else here wants to take a look also...

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Monday, October 21, 2024 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Also, as noted in both Module C3A and in the aforementioned Darwin story fiction, the "dark future" counterpart to Operation Unity was called Operation Codominion.

Unlike the case in Unity, Codominion was launched by only four Alpha empires, along only two axes of advance: the Federation and Klingons went along one of these routes, whereas the Gorns and ISC took the other. (By the time Codominion was being launched, none of the other Alpha empires were in any sort of shape to take part in this campaign.)

Codominion was launched in alt-Y203 and appeared to go well at first, but ultimately never made it as far as the Lesser Magellanic Cloud. This was for two main reasons: the first, due to the emergence of more powerful Andromedan units (such as Devastator and Devourer battleships) along the routes themselves; and the second, due to the lines of communication being severed by Andromedan forces still at large within the Alpha Octant proper (which, presumably, would include any Andro units being deployed along the third RTN route to and from the LMC).

By alt-Y205, only about 30% of the ships sent on Codominion had made it back to the Alpha Octant, with most of those being severely damaged.

If only to act as a fateful corollary to the historical Operation Unity campaign, it might be useful to keep the events of Operation Codominion in mind - or, perhaps, to one day offer a Codominion variant of the historical Unity scenario, for players to one day consider.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, October 21, 2024 - 03:05 pm: Edit

Gary, this topic is a place for me to move old posts I am not ready to sift. You are flooding the topic with so much noise you are actually stopping conversations, not contributing.