A place to list conjecterial ships that never made it into F&E and suggest their combat values.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 06:30 pm: Edit

OK, I'll start this show is the Federation NIMITZ-class CVN 72-fighter Heavy Carrier from SFT #9.

Let's see now. This thing is as big as a DN, perhaps bigger if we count up the internals, but it has no teeth of its own. Still, with four PH-Gs and a sky full of Admin / MRS shuttles, I'll be generious and give it the firepower of an FF. Let's call the basic numbers 4-11 / 2-6.

On to counting up an ungodly number of fighters:

24 x F-14c
36 x F-18c
12 x A-10

The standard Fed CVA carries 12 each F-14 and A-10 with a Fighter Factor of 15. {edit} Looking at Rule (302.352), the 12xF-14 count as 8 and the 12xA-10s count 7. Ergo, the CVN will have 16+18+7 = 41 fighter factors .... well above the Three Squadron Limit. Well, I guess that means that either the ship must hold some fighters back in reserve -OR- this ships needs some special rules. (Actually, I do have another idea, but I shall post that in a different topic!!)

Two ideas that come to mind for special rules for this unique ship are:

1) Simply allow it to fly all 41 fighter factors in a combat round, but no other fighters from other sources may be in the battle.

2) Or allow it to fly up to 23 fighter factors (two standard squadrons plus one heavier A-10 squadron) into battle and use the rest as a Close Fighter Escort (yet another idea I'll post in another topic): take the fighter factors NOT used offensively, divide by 2 (rounding down) and adding that to the Defense Factor of any one ship / base.


At any rate the F&E factors for the NIMITZ-class CVN should be, IMnsHO:

4-11 (41) / 2-6 (18) plus four SWAC counters.


Garth L. Getgen

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 06:41 pm: Edit

FYI

A squadron of 12 F-14 is valued at 8. That would put a squadron of 12 A-10 at 7, to fit in a CVA.

Thus, 16+18+7 41 fighter factors.

Overall, I like your proposal, and I think the CVN should be allowed to use the entire squadron in battle. The immense cost of this ship would limit its use.

What year would it be available?
Can it be converted from a CVA?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 06:54 pm: Edit

if it can't use all the fighters it had better get quite a discount on their purchace, remember that this will cost 12 free fighters + 58EP for the rest of the fighters not counting the cost of the ship

at this cost I don't ever see it being built without some special exception (similar to the hydran IC, but even more severe)

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 06:59 pm: Edit

Ya know, this ship could replace the Fed BB in the Fed reaction. Far more likely, and we could squeeze it into the history. IF we could get it made an offical ship That would be fun.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 07:19 pm: Edit

Kevin -- I was editing that when you corrected me!! (For those that missed it, I listed the A-10s as counting 9 for a total of 39.)

I sent ADB an SFB scenario idea once using this ship. In my idea, the Feds used it as a pilot training platform, and it was called into action to fend off a Klingon Swarm. I can't remember if it was SCV or SPP (probably SPP) that rejected it because the Feds would not find it cost effective to build and maintain a unique ship "simply" for training ... they would have used an AuxCV instead. {shrug}

At any rate, if you take this idea to F&E, it would mean that this ship cannot be converted from a DN/CVA or anything else. It must be built from scratch ... and there can be only one.

As to how to bring the cost down .... let me think about that some. In the meantime, I'm looking for the last printing of Mike West's Fed hybred-ships to post here. Another else have ideas what to post??

Garth L. Getgen

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 11:00 pm: Edit

Garth, I got some info on that ship. I forget where it came from, I think it was Will Culbertson's old site (that I cannot find anymore). Other than what you posted, here's what I had saved:

Special Build Rules: The Federation can have 1 CVN in operation at any one time. It can be built after the first CVA is built for the following costs:
Hull: 16+3 points for carrier conversion (counts as DN production)
Fighters: 41 fighter factors. Costs 58 points. Uses 2 turns off free fighter factors.
Building this ship excludes any other carrier, except one escort carrier and fast resupply ship, from being built that turn. The next turn, the free fighter factors are unavailable for use but carrier production returns to normal.
Escort Requirements: Because the ship had very little offensive firepower it was deemed necessary to increase the normal amount of escorts for this ship. Also, the Federation decided to convert one CA to an escort version to increase firepower. In addition, 4 other escorts were assigned to the ship, 2 large and 2 small as follows:
Y171-Y175: CE, 2ECL, 2DE
Y175+: CE, 2NAC, 2DE(or DWA)
It is possible that if this ship had been built, it could have been converted to a SSCS late in the war. In that case, it would have replaced the A-10s with A-20s or F-111s.

CVN: (41)1-12/(21)0-6; CR10; YR171+
SSCS: s(44)1-12/(22)0-6; CR10; YR?; with A-10s replaced by A-20s
SSCS: s(47)1-12/(24)0-6; CR10; YR?; with A-10s replaced by A-20s and an F-18 squadron
replaced by F-111s

6CVN group: (41)26-44/(21)14-24 or (41)28-46/(21)16-24
6SSCS group: (44 or 47)26-44/(22 or 24)14-24 or (44 or 47)28-46/(22 or 24)16-24
CE: e7-8/e4; CR8; YR175+

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 11:28 pm: Edit

Eric,

A couple things I don't like about that. The biggest is the need to invent a second ship (CA-based Heavy Escort). By the way, what's its ComPot values??

I thought I was generious in giving the CVN the DN+ defense rating of 11 ... 12 is definetly too much. If it didn't have all that padding (shuttle boxes), I'd say it's only a 10.

On the other hand, perhaps my 4 Attack value is too much. But I'm sure it's beeter than a 1. With all those Admin shuttles, just think of how full the sky will be when the Scatter Pack release!! I'm willing to drop the attack rating to a 3 ... MAYBE to a 2, but it's got to be better than a 1.

Last point: the crippled Fighter Factor rating is wrong, me thinks. The CVA drops from a 15 to a 6, so I assumed that the F-14 bonus goes away for half squadrons. Ergo, the reason I made it 41/18. {shrug}


Garth L. Getgen

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 12:28 am: Edit

Garth, I don't have the SSD handy. That was some stuff I got elsewhere.

Crippled fighters, yeah, your way follows current standard.

CA-escort, don't know what SSD it is based off. I've seen links recently to a few. F&E stats are at the end of my prvious post under "CE" though I think the YIS is wrong since it previously listed CE available for Y171 under the escort group composition.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 12:51 am: Edit

remeber that the IC gets a O-compot rating of 4 and all it has are some P-1, also the tholian PC which mounts 4xP-1 and no other weapons gets a compot of 4

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 01:23 am: Edit

Eric,

Sorry, I missed the stats for the CE. Guess I didn't read the fully message.

David, Thanks for that info. The CVN has, as I recall, a pair of PH-1 and four PH-G, plus some ADD racks (tho me thinks they should be G-racks if this was reprinted) and a heap of shuttles. So, yeah, a rating of 3, maybe 4, is still in order. More so than a 1.

At any rate, I think we've beaten this one to death. Next ship, please!!


Garth L. Getgen

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 02:08 am: Edit

Another, "should be easy," one.

Kzinti CVC from SSJ.

Some others for later.

Heavy PFs (SSJ)
Gorn SSCS (SSJ)
Kzinti BCE (CL24)
Kzinti Improved Survey Cruiser (CL25) and Carrier
There was a Lyran SSCS somewhere
I'd have to dig out my StarLetters and SFTs tomorrow for more.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 02:37 am: Edit

Moving back to the CVN(N) for just a minute -

I made these based on someones numbers:

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 02:49 am: Edit

Moving back to the CVN(N) for just a minute -

I made F&E counters based on a 5CVN(N) group [CVN(N), CE, NAC, DWA, FFE). There are two versions, one is (41)22-38/(21)10-20 and the other (41)24-37/(18)11-19.

If anyone wants them, let me know.

By Robert Cole (Zathras) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 11:23 am: Edit

Federation DNP Diplomatic Dreadnought (SFT23)
Once the Diplomatic Rules are done, this would be an interesting addition.

Klingon C9J Penal Dreadnought (SFT23)
This is just sick . Imagine a honor duel or sacrifice with a DN...

Lyran DNT Dreadnought Tug (SFT23).
IIRC this ship would be capable of carrying 3 Klink-style pods. I think it sounds fun .

Kzinti EDN (or DNE as it was originally published) Escort Dreadnought (SFT23)
Obvious, and it would never be built, but imagine the capabilities.

Don't forget the Alliance Maulers (were these already done?) and Hydran-ized Feds.

There are some other nifty one-off ships in SFT (Klink EC39, Kzinti TRI, Romulan DE) but I think this is a good start .

(With all the CVA(O) discussion going on, I had thought about starting a similar topic, but I was out of town this weekend. Ah well... )

⁴²

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 12:24 pm: Edit

No fair, Eric & Robert ... you didn't post the F&E stats for those ships!!! See the opening post: " ... and suggest their combat values."


Garth L. Getgen

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 01:43 pm: Edit

Hey, I'm trying to be fair and let other people play, too!

I do have a file of ship factors I did. Let me dig it up and see what's in there.

OK, conjectural only?

Desig.	SFB #	Factors	Product	Cmnd	Date	Base Hull	Conversion	Build/Sub	Salvage	Notes
Federation
DNP	(R2.J3)	9-12N/5-6	SFT#23	8	175	DN(2)	From DNG: 2	For DN: 16		Diplomatic
SCSA		10-12(6)P/5-6(3)		10	182	DN(2)				SCS, see (502.7)
SDSA		17-20(12)P/9-10(6)	R7	10	184	BB(2)	From BB: 5+16 From BBV: 5	For BB: 41+24		SDS
Klingon
C9J	(R3.J3)	11-12/6	SFT#23	9	168	C9(2)	From C8: 2	For C8: 18		Penal Dreadnought
EC39	(R3.J2)	11-12/6	SFT#13	10	?	DN(2)	From E3: 13	For C8: 16		Dreadnought
Kzinti
BCE	(R5.A2)	6-8n/3-4n	CL25	8	173	CA(3)	From CA: 1	For CA: 9		Heavy Escort
DNA	(R5.J3)	10-12n/5-6n	SFT#23	10	174	DN(2)	From DN: 1	For DN: 17		Heavy Escort
SBT	(R5.909)	9T[4]/5	SFT#19	10	160					Super Tug
Orion
OK6D	(R8.924)	6u[6]/3	SFT#26		165
OK6G	(R8.922)	6GG/3G	SFT#26		165
OK6H	(R8.925)	11/6	SFT#26		166
OK6V	(R8.923)	7(5)/4(2)	SFT#26		169
Lyran
DNT	(R11.J3)	11-12T/5-6	SFT#23	10	175	DN(2)	From DN: 4 From TGC/TGP: 6 From CA/CC: 10	For DN: 20		Dreadnought Tug
NDF	(R11.J5)	7/4	SFT#32	6	177	NDF(3)	From FF+DND: 0	Must Convert		Unique Ship
SSCS	(R11.924)	11-12u(6)PP/5-6u(3)P	SFT#9	10	197	DN(2)	From DN: 10+12 From CVA: 10 From SCS: 5	For DN: 26+12		SSCS, (1EW:11AF)(4EW:7AF)

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 03:20 pm: Edit

C'mon you guys I am disappointed. You mean no one out there has factors ready and waiting for a topic like this to present factors for the Rom Converted B-10, the B-10V, & B-10S ??

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 03:41 pm: Edit

Actually, I have got all the BBs, BBVs and SDSs done. I'll get them in a bit.

By David Porter (Davidp) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 05:02 pm: Edit

Eric,

The Kzinti heavy escort is the EBC/ABC and is in CL 24.

I think your factors on this are wrong. 8xPh-1, 8xPh-3 and 4xG-racks should make it a 7-8/4 ship.

The Kzinti DNA has 13xPh-1, 13xPh-3, 6xG-racks. I think it should be a 11-12/6.

Compare either in what they convert to any Lyran escort.

David Porter

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 05:08 pm: Edit

Desig.	SFB #	Factors	Product	Cmnd	Date	Base Hull	Conversion	Build/Sub	Salvage	Notes
Federation
BB		20(4)/10(2)	R5	10	175	BB(2)	From BBV/SDS: 2	Special Rules [36]		Battleship, base hull
BBV		17-20(15)/9-10(8)	R7	10	177	BB(2)	From BB: 2+22	For BB: 38+30		Heavy Carrier
SDS		17-20(24)/9-10(12)	R7	10	180	BB(2)	From BB: 5+40 From BBV: 5+18	For BB: 41+48		SDS
Klingon
B11		22(4)/11(2)	R5	10	178	B11(2)	From BBV/SDS: 2	Special Rules [36]		Battleship, base hull
B11V		19-22(12)/10-11(6)	R7	10	179	B11(2)	From B11: 2+16	For B11: 38+24		Heavy Carrier
B11S		19-22(6)P/10-11(3)	R7	10	181	B11(2)	From B11: 5+4 From B11V: 5	For B11: 41+12		SDS
Romulan
ICV		21(12)/11(6)	R7	10	177	BB(2)	From KCN: 2+16	For KCN: 38+24		Heavy Carrier
K10R		21(4)/11(2)	R7	10	175	B10(2)	From K10V/K10S: 2	Special Rules [36]		Battleship, base hull
K10V		21(12)/11(6)	R7	10	177	B10(2)	From K10R: 2+16	For K10R: 38+24		Heavy Carrier
K10S		21(6)P/11(3)	R7	10	182	B10(2)	From K10R: 5+4 From K10V: 5	For K10R: 41+12		SDS
KCN		21(4)/11(2)	R7	10	175	BB(2)	From ICV/TCS: 2	Special Rules [36]		Battleship, base hull
TCS		21(6)P/11(3)	R7	10	182	BB(2)	From KCN: 5+4 From ICV: 5	For KCN: 41+12		SDS
Kzinti
BB		20(4)/10(2)	R5	10	175	BB(2)	From BBV/SDS: 2	Special Rules [36]		Battleship, base hull
BBV		19-20(12)/9-10(6)	R7	10	177	BB(2)	From BB: 2+16	For BB: 38+24		Heavy Carrier
SDS		19-20(6)P/9-10(3)	R7	10	181	BB(2)	From BB: 5+4 From BBV: 5	For BB: 41+12		SDS
Gorn
BB		22(3)/11(1)	R5	10	175	BB(2)	From BBV/SDS: 2	Special Rules [36]		Battleship, base hull
BBV		20-22(12)/10-11(6)	R7	10	177	BB(2)	From BB: 2+16	For BB: 38+24		Heavy Carrier
SDS		20-22(6)P/10-11(3)	R7	10	182	BB(2)	From BB: 5+4 From BBV: 5	For BB: 41+12		SDS
Tholian
NBS		14-20(6)PW/ 7-20(3)W	R7	10	180	BB(2)	From NBB: 5+4 From NBV: 5	For NBB: 41+12		SDS
NBV		14-20(12)W/7-20(6)W	R7	10	179	BB(2)	From NBB: 2+16	For NBB: 38+24		Heavy Carrier
Hydran
MNR		20(9)/10(4)	R5	10	175	BB(2)	From MNV/MNS: 2	Special Rules [36]		Battleship, base hull
MNS		20(9)P/10(4)	R7	10	178	BB(2)	From MNR/MNV: 5	For MNR: 41+18		SDS
MNV		20(15)/10(7)	R7	10	177	BB(2)	From MNR: 2+12	For MNR: 38+30		Heavy Carrier
Lyran
BB		20P/10	R5	10	175	BB(2)	From BBV/SDS: 2	Special Rules [36]		Battleship, base hull
BBV		18-20(12)/9-10(6)	R7	10	177	BB(2)	From BB: 2+24	For BB: 38+24		Heavy Carrier
SDS		18-20(6)P/9-10(3)	R7	10	178	BB(2)	From BB: 5+12	For BB: 41+12		SDS

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 06:14 pm: Edit

Alliance mauler factors are in CL26.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 07:12 pm: Edit

Kzn BB...Is this a Kzn SSCS?

:-)

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 09:51 pm: Edit

Long, long ago, I tried my hand at designing a Federation Battleship, but I put the emphasis on making it a really heavy carrier instead of just a big ship. From my efforts, I learned two things.

1) I really suck at designing SSD's.

2) Somebody beat me to it with the CVN.

So I wholeheartedly agree with CFant when he says:

Ya know, this ship could replace the Fed BB in the Fed reaction. Far more likely, and we could squeeze it into the history. IF we could get it made an offical ship That would be fun.

By John Wyszynski (Starsabre) on Sunday, June 08, 2003 - 10:03 pm: Edit

The Federation SCSA should be 11-12(14)P/5-6(7)P as it has 2 squadrons, F-14s and F-18s plus the PFs. Nastiest SCS in the game. The SDSA has the same load out of fighters and PFs.

The Kzinti BB is a different beast from the SSCS. The SSCS is closer to 14(6)PP*/7(3)PP (where * is scout marking).