Ed, I agree. I'd leave the Hydrans with 12 Hydrid factors per year (even if all other free fighters are removed). I was proposing that if David is going to remove all free fighters, he adjust the cost of the Hydran hybrid ships so that they are somewhat cheaper.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 01:25 pm: Edit

The problem is economic exhaustion, when the Hydrans get exhausted their free fighters aren't changed so late in the war your costing the Hydrans some much needed income.

By Symon Cook (Symon) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 01:44 pm: Edit

Edward Reece:
"The Hydrans need their free fighter factors too much."

Especially when they get kicked off-map.

The Kzinti need them too for exactly the same reasons.

By John Smedley (Ukar) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 02:04 pm: Edit

Symon

The Hydran situtation is very different from the Kzinti. The reason is the Federation - the Kzinti will recieve 20 ep/turn from the Feds (plus some from the Gorns if needed). The Hydrans are on there own.

By Symon Cook (Symon) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 02:36 pm: Edit

John Smedley:
"The Hydran situtation is very different from the Kzinti."

Oh I agree it's much worse for the Hydrans, but even with Fed support, the loss of free fighters has a significant economic impact for off-map Kzinti. Equivalent to about 40% of income if I recall.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 02:48 pm: Edit

In general, it's harder to kick the Kzinti off map & keep them off. Their offmap is well positioned for counter strikes. Once the Hydrans are off, it's hard for them to recover.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 04:00 am: Edit

It will probably be harder to take capitals in F&E lite.
However, I will dish out some free fighters - just not very many.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 09:38 am: Edit

Only the Hydrans HAVE to have them, though the Kzinti will be hurting a little without them.
As a balance suggestion I would suggest giving the Hydran 12 Hydrids per year and the Kzinti, Klingons, Romulans and Federation get 3 per year.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 10:23 am: Edit

I'm going to go more "historical" than that. Joe's given me some values which say that SFB gives the Zin double the fighter production of the Klingons and hydrans. However, I will probably have to tweak in favour of the Hydrans, but not as much as you suggest (I don't want to go totally ahistorical - part of the objective of this exercise is to cut as few corners as possible).

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Dang.

Just accidently overwrote my main F&E lite OB file. I'll have to work from the one online here, which is pretty badly out of date. I do have a hard copy however.

Here are some play reports.

Lyran economics

Turn 1
Survey rolls 15
Lyran economics. 57.5EP
No carry over.

Builds
TGA,JGP,CW,2DW,2FF,HDW-cog,JGP-G
43EP
Conversions.
North, East, and south SBs DD->SC
Home SB CA->DN
Far stars SB CA->CC
13EP

total 56EP
Remaining 1.5EP
Salvage C turn 1 - 0.75EP


Turn 2
Survey rolls 30 (+2 included for PT)
Lyran economics 58.7EP (off map province + 2 neutral hexes)
+ carry over = 60.95EP

Repairs
13.5EP
Builds
DN,2CW,DW,2FF ,POL
35EP
Conversions
Home CA->DN
North, Far, South CA->CC
9EP

total 57.5EP
Remaining 3.45EP
Salvage C turn 2 – 1.25EP
Salvage A turn 2 – 1.25EP

Turn 3
Survey rolls 45 (+2 for PT)
Lyran economics 57.9EP (2 off-map prov, -2 raided prov, +4 neutral hexes)
+carry over = 62.85EP

Repairs
28EP
Builds
2BP,2CW,2DW, FF
24.5EP
Conversions
Not done yet

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:02 pm: Edit

Klingon economics


Klingon

Turn 1
Survey rolls -
economics. 71EP
No carry over.

Builds
5D5,3F5,TGA
42EP
Conversions.
Home D6->D6S, D6->D6M, E4->E4R
TBS D6->D6D
19EP
Mothballs
2D6,2F5,3E4
7EP
Total 68EP
Remaining 3EP

Turn 2
Survey rolls 5
economics 71EP
+ carry over = 74EP

Builds
C8,LTT,3D5,3F5,2VP (uses all 4.5 free fighter factors),POL
48EP
Conversions
Home D6->D6D, D6->D6M, E4->E4R
NR D5->D5S
18EP
Mothballs
2D6,2F5,3E4
7EP
total 73EP
Remaining 1EP
Salvage C turn 2 – 2.4EP
Drones C turn 2 – 2.4EP

Turn 3
Survey rolls 9 (+2 for PT)
Lyran economics 72.4EP (+14 neutral hexes)
+carry over = 73.4EP

Repairs
20EP
Builds
5D5,3F5,B10roll
37EP
Conversions
Home D6->D6M
TBS D6->D6D
8EP
Mothballs
2D6,2F5,3E4
7EP
Total 72EP
Remaining 1.4EP

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:03 pm: Edit

Kzinti economics

Kzinti
Turn 1
Survey rolls 11
Salvage C turn 1 2.75
economics. 46.5EP
No carry over.

Builds
FFK,FCR,EFF,DD,2PDG
28EP
Conversions.
Home BC-+Cl+FF>CVgrp (2.5 free ftrs used)
Count CL->CLE
Marquis FF->FFK
Baron BC->CD
19EP
total 47EP
Remaining 2.25 EP
Drones A turn 12 stockpile
Salvage A turn 5.38EP
CEDS A turn 6EP
Drones C turn 2 – 8 stockpile
Salvage C turn 2 6.25EP
CEDS C turn 2 1EP
Remaining 6.88EP

Turn 2
Survey rolls 20 (+2 included for PT)
economics 42.5EP ()
+ carry over = 49.38EP

Repairs
16.5EP
Builds
DD,MEC,FF,FKE,POL,2PGB
24.5EP
Conversions.
Home FF->FFK
Count BC->CD
Baron CL->CLE
5EP
total 46EP

Remaining 3.38 EP
Drones A turn 2
Salvage A turn 2
Comconvoy turn 2 +5EP
CEDS A turn 2 -9.5EP
Drones C turn 3
Salvage C turn 3
CEDS C turn 3
Remaining

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:04 pm: Edit

Economics seem to be working just fine at 50% and reduced builds. They get alot more painful very quickly - the klingons in particular have some nasty dilemmas.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:05 pm: Edit

Battle reports.

(Brakets) = cripple.
_CL_ = destroyed
+X = compot from bases and drones.

Coalition Turn 1 Fall168 combat – A tactical error in Zin reaction allows the Lyrans to destroy 2 BATS. (I forgot about cunning retreats). In order of resolution (always)

0703
lyran 57compot vs BATS.
Z-BATS L-(CL) (2 rounds)
0904
Lyran 70 compot vs Zin 79 compot.
Z-_LAS_ L-(2FF,CW)
L retreat to 0803, pursuit fails.
0803
Lyran 91 compot vs Zin 53+18 compot
Z- _DF_ + sids L-(2CW)
Lyran 88 compot vs Zin 49+18 compot
Z- _SF_ + 12 ftrs + 2 SIDS L-(TGA-BT,DDG)
Z retreat and BATS dies for no further loss.
0902
Lyran 74 compot vs Zin 65+8
Z- _SAD_ +7fighters L- (3DD,CL)
Lyran retreat, no pursuit.

Lyrans retreat to their BATS line, Resvs (2, small) set up at 0705.

Alliance Turn 1 Fall168 combat – A Zin counterattack looks like a poor exchange for the Zin until the Lyrans realise on turn 2 just how big their repair problem is due to the halving of repair facilities. The Zin are unlucky not to roll well enough to cripple then destroy the BATS by DD. Both sides go high on the minus points most rounds, and the Zin have difficulty using their fighters. (they wanted to just stay 2 rounds, burning fighters).

0705
Round 1
L 97 vs Z 80+4
Z-_DF_+5 ftr (CLE) L- (3CW) + 8 ftr
Round 2
L107+15 vs Z 77
Z- _EFF_ +8ftr (CV) L- (2DW) + 3ftr
Round 3
L 104+15 vs Z 83
Z- _EFF_ (BC) L-(2DW,FF,CA)
Round 4
L 96+18 vs Z 83
Z _CLE_ +3ftr L-(2CW,DD)
Round 5
L 94+18 vs Z 77
Z _BC_ + 9ftrs (FFK,BC) L-(2CW)
Pursuit
L 58 vs Z52
Z _BC_ +ftrs L-(CL,CA)

Coalition Turn 2 Spring169 combat – The Count’s SB and Zin home are left high and dry as the hexes below are attacked. The Marquis saves 1504, while the home reserve tries to save the Duke’s SB at 1304 but in vain. There, the Zin decide to kill the D6M as their small fleet cannot really afford to allow a D6M to keep mauling ships. A painful turn for both sides, but it is the Lyrans who have the repair backlog.

1504
K 68 vs Z 63+18
Z_BC_ L-(2F5,E4A,F5L) 5ftr
The Klingons save their mauler for pursuit deterrance, but wanted 1 round to use up ftrs and pop a Zin ship. K retreat after one round, Zin do not pursue.
1604
BATS destroyed, no loss
1506
Planet captured, no loss
1405
BATS destroyed, (E4)
1205
BATS destroyed, (D7)
1105
Planet captured (2E4)
1004
BATS destroyed (SAV)
0701
BATS destroyed (2FF)
1304
Round 1 Lyrans spend a command point (they have the DN).
K 102+6 vs Z 87+42+4
Z (CV CLE EFF SF FFK) 12 ftrs
K (2F5,SC,2D5,TGP-SPSP,CW) 6ftrs.
Round 2
K 103+6 vs Z 84+30+4
Z _DD_ (mauled, no shock) (TG SC EFF) 6ftrs
K (2F5,SC,CL) 3 ftrs
Round 3
K 103+6 vs Z 76+30
K _D6M_ (DD)
Z _CL_ (mauled) 2 sids.
Round 4
K 96+6 vs Z 75+30
K (2DD,SC,CL,CW)
Z _SDF_ (on line), 4 sids
Round 5
K 97 vs Z 73+48
K (3CL 3FF) 3 ftrs
Z (2CLE,CLG), SIDS
Marine attack kills a G from the CLG protecting the SB.
Round 6
K 94 vs Z 67+48
K (2CL+FF+F5G)
Z (CVE+EFF) 15ftrs
Marine attack killes the last G on the SB
Round 7
K93 vs Z 52+36
K (JGP FF 2CL)
Z _EFF_ 2 sids, 6ftrs.
Z retreat fleet.
SB dies for one more (DDG).

Alliance Turn 2 Spring169 combat – CEDS allows the Zin to get their fleet up to scratch quickly. The Zin counterattack sucessfully.

1105
Round 1
K 98 vs Z 90
K (2DW,2DD)
Z (TGC-VV, EFF, CLE) + 18ftrs
K/L retreat Z decide to pursue
Round pursuit.
K 96 vs Z 48 (2 CV groups).
K _2DW_
Z (CLE,MEC,2EFF) 12 ftrs
Hmm – dubious decision, but K were lucky.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:09 pm: Edit

One rule I am finding that works very well is to make battletugs (of any type) have max CR9. Other tugs combos are max CR8.
This makes DNs very much more important.

The reduction was a way to effectively reduce command ratings a shade in line with the ship reductions in the OOB.

By the way, I'm not finding any problems so far with the execution of the scenario. It basically plays like faster F&E. I actually think it could be better once its balanced. So far, balance does not seem to be out too much.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 12:09 pm: Edit

BTW, I put in a few free fighters

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Tuesday, June 17, 2003 - 02:57 pm: Edit

Interesting David, keep up the battle reports as I'm following this playtest to see how she goes.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 06:22 am: Edit

Total casualties

Z- LAS,SAD,2DF,SF,SDF,3EFF,CLE,CL,DD,3BC

15 ships

Built FFK,FCR,EFF,2DD,MEC,FF,FKE (POL)

8 ships (maximum builds)

L/K have lost just a D6M and 2DW.

This is roughly what I would expect for a nation losing a war. They have units destroyed faster than they can be replaced. Meanwhile, the agressors take "casualties" (cripples), but can pull out units for refit and replacements.

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 12:18 pm: Edit

Are those casualties through 2 complete turns?

Sure, the Kzinti should lose some ships - but they are defending fixed defenses. At this point, they should be doing more damage to the Coalition than they're taking.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 04:43 pm: Edit

They are

It's just that the coalition is dirdamming, taking cripples in exchange.

casulaties through 2 complete turns - look above to see just how the cripples panned out

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 11:01 am: Edit

updated OOBs with some small rules changes to make this work better.

KLINGON EMPIRE
Home
Admiral,C8,D7C,2D7,D7A,D6M,D6V,D6,3F5Q,2F5S,F5J,2E4A,3E4,TGA,FTL,2FTS,LAV,FRD,2MB,RESV
North and East (replace D6D with D6M for west)
Admiral,D7C,FD7,2D7,D6D,D6G,D6J,2F5Q,F5S,FV,E4A,3E4,TGA
TBS
D7C,3D7,3D6,F5Q,F5S,F5J,FV,E4A,3E4,TGA,RESV
SR (replace D6D with D6M for NR)
Admiral,C5,D7C,3D7,D6M,CVT,D6S,3F5Q,F5S,F5J,2E4A,3E4,TGT.SAF,SAV,FRD,MB,RESV
Mothball reserves
24D6,12F5,12E4 Activate at 2D6,2F5,3E4 per turn (1D6+1F5 limited war).
Imperial War reserves.
D7C,2D7,D6D,F5Q,F5S,3E4 – 3 squadrons. (+6D6 to mothballs).

2 battle,2drone,2VP2,2troop,3 Monitors
Mothball and IWR are activated as normal.
3 free fighter factors per year.
(F6 on turn 15-S178 and 18-S179)

Builds.
F168 D7,5D5,F5Q,2E4
S169 C8,D7,4D5,F5Q,E4 F169 D7,5D5,F5Q,2E4
S170 D7C,D6,4D5,F5Q,E4 F170 D7,5D5,F5Q,2E4
S171 C8,D7,4D5,F5Q,E4 F171 D7,5D5,F5Q,F5L,E4
S172 D7C,D6,4D5,F5Q,2F5 F172 D7,5D5,F5Q,F5L,E4
S173 C8,D7,4D5,F5Q,2F5 F173 D7,5D5,F5Q,F5L,E4
S174 D7C,D6,4D5,F5Q,2F5 F174 D7,5D5,F5Q,F5L,E4
S175/6 C8,D7,4D5,F5Q,2F5W F175/7 D7,D5W,4D5,F5Q,F5W,E4
S176/8 D7C,D6,4D5,F5Q,2F5W F176/8 D7,D5W,4D5,F5Q,F5W,E4
S179+C8,D7,4D5,F5Q,HDW,F5W F179+ D7,D5W,4D5,F5Q,F5W,E4
S180+ D7C,D6,4D5,F5Q,HDW,F5W F180+ D7,D5W,4D5,F5Q,F5W,E4


LYRAN EMPIRE
Red Claw
BC,CF,3CA,5CW,5CL,2DD,2DDG,SC,5FF,TGC,MB,RESV
Home
DN,CC,3CA,4CW,JGP,2DW,5CL,3DD,DDG,SC,8FF,TGP,MB,FRD,RESV,SAF,SAV,FTL,2FTS.
Enemy Blood
CC,CF,2CA,4CL,2DD,DDG,SC,4FF,TGC, MB
Far Stars
DNL,CC,2CA,4CL,2DD,DDG,SC,4FF,TGP,FRD

Scout pallet, battle pallett, assault pallet, 2 monitors
No free fighters

Builds
F168 CA 2CW 2DW FF
S169 DN 2CW DW 2FF F169 CA 2CW 2DW FF
S170 BC 2CW DW 2FF F170 CA 2CW 2DW FF
Then repeat S169-F170 as a 2-year cycle.

KZINTI HEGEMONY
Home
DN,CV,2BC,CD,CVE,CLE,CL,2DD,SDF,SF,FFK,2EFF,2FF,FCR,TGC,FRD,MB,LAV,LAD,FTS,RESV
Baron
CC,CVL,3BC,3CL,DDV,DF,SF,FFG,EFF,TGT,FRD,MB,SAS
Marquis
CC,CVL,2BC,BF,2CL,CLG,DF,SF,FFK,EFF,2FF,TGT,SAD,SAS
Duke
DNL,CV,3BC,CVE,CLE,CL,DF,SF,FFG,2EFF,FF,TGC,RESV,LAS,SAV
Count
CC,CV,2BC,BF,CLE,CLG,CL,DF,SF,FFK,EFF,2FF,TGT,RESV,SAV,SAD

4 carrier, 2 scout, 2 battle, 2 troop, 3 monitors
5 free fighter factors per year (bringing on DDV costs 3).
48DP drone stockpile.

F168 CL,DD,FF
S169 DD,MEC,2FF F169 BC,CM,3FF
S170 CV,MEC,CM,EFF,2FF F170 BC,CL,CM,3FF
S171/3 DN,2CM,3FF F171/3 BC,2CM,3FF
S172/4CV,MEC,CM,EFF,2FF F172/4 BC,CL,CM,3FF
S175 DN,2CM,3FF F175 BC,NCA,CM,DW,2FFK

ROMULAN STAR EMPIRE
Home
2Admiral,VUL,KE,5WE,FAL,SE,2KR,KRM,CE,SP,SK,2WH,2BHE,K5L,K5,K5S,3SN,3SNB.KRT,SAV,FTL,2FTS,
PWC - KC9R,WE->KE,SUP,FFH,SPB,SPG,SP,3SPC,SPF,2SKE,2K4
North
Admiral,KRC,KE,2WE,FAL,SE,CE,2KR,KRM,K5L,2K5,K5S,3SN,3SNB,3FE
PWC - SHR,WE->KE,FH,SPB,SP,SKB,SKG,SKF,3SKE,2K4
West
Admiral,KRC,KE,2WE,FAL,SE,CE,3K7R,2KR,KRM,K5L,2K5,K5S,3SN,3SNB,3FE
PWC - CON,WE->KE,SUP,SP,SPB,3SKE,SKF,SKB,SKG,2K4
Patrol
5WE,SE,4BH,3SN,3SNB
PWC - SP,2K4
Imperial War reserves - Mothballs
4WE,4BH,8SN 2ships/turn. + 2VUL (need conversion).

No pods, 3 monitors.
4 free fighter factors per year

F168 SP,2SK
S169 (4K4)(WE->KE),SP,SK F169 (4K4),SUP,SP,2SK
S170 (WE->KE),2SP,SK F170 CON,SP,2SK
S171 (WE->KE),FH,2SP,SK F171 SUP,SP,2SK
S172 (KC9R), FFH F172 SHR,SP,2SK
S173/5/7 FH,2SP,2SK,WE F173/5/7 NH,2SP,SK,SEH,SN
S174/6 FH,2SP,2SK,WE F174/6 CON,2SP,2SK,SEH,SN
S178 FH,2SP,HDW,3SK,SEH,WE F178 CON,2SP,2SK,2SEH,SN
S179+ FH,2SP,HDW,3SK,SEH,WE F179+ NH,2SP,2SK,2SEH,SN
S180+ FH,2SP,HDW,3SK,SEH,WE F180+ CON,2SP,2SK,2SEH,SN

HYDRAN KINGDOM
Home
LM,3RN,2LN,LNG,CR,2HN,SC,FCR,TG,LAV,FTS,2MB,2FRD,RESV
Exp
LGE,LB,3DG,3KN,CR,2CU,HNG,SC,TG,SAV
First
LM,THR,2RN,2LN,LNG,CR,2HN,SC,FCR,TG,SAS
Second
LB,THR,2DG,3KN,CR,2CU,HNG,SC,TG,SAS
OCS
LC,2PGS,2LN,CR,2HN, RESV

Carrier, battle, fire support, FCP, Assault, scout, 2 monitors.
4 free fighter factors per year (old colonies shipyard as normal rules)
1 free pegasus/even numbered year free – base hull only. You can choose variants, and
do not need to use conversion capability, but the conversion cost must be paid.

F168 TR,2HN
S169 PAL (act), HR,2HN,CU F169 UH,AH,RN,HN,CU
S170 DE,AH,DG,HR,2HN,CU F170 CV,AH,HR,TR,HN,CU
S171 DE,AH,PAL (act),HR,2HN,CU F171 UH,AH,RN,HR,HN,CU,TR
S172 DE,AH,DG,HR,2HN,CU (Peg) F172 CV,AH,HR,TR,HN,CU
S173 PAL,HR,LN,2HN,CU F173 RN,HR,CW,HN,2CU

UNITED FEDERATION OF PLANETS
Home
Admiral,DN,CC,3CA,2CL,CMC,3DD,SC,5FF,FFS,2TG,FTL,LAV,2FTS
PWC -(DN+CL+2DE->CVA+CLE+2DE), SWAC,2FF,2NCL (S171)
2nd
2CVL,COV
3rd
Admiral,CVS,CC,CA,CF,2CL,CMC,2DD,DE,SC,FFE,4FF,FFS,TG,SAV
PWC - DN (F168), (CA+DD+FF->CVB+DE+FFE) (S169), 2FF (S170)
4th
Admiral,DNL,CC,3CA,3DD,SC,CFF,2FF,TG
5th
Admiral,DNL,CC,3CA,3DD,SC,CFF,2FF,TG
6th
Admiral,CVS,CC,CA,CF,2CL,CMC,2DD,DE,SC,FFE,4FF,FFS,TG,SAV
PWC - DN (F169), (CA+DD+FF->CVB+DE+FFE) (S170), 2FF (F170)
7th
Admiral,CC,3CA,3DD,SC,2FF,CFF
Mothball reserve
6CA,18CL,18FF,3DD, activate CA,DD,3CL,3FF per turn (limited war CL+FF).

1Battle ,2carrier, Assault, Scout, 6 monitors
1 free SWAC on spring turn, may purchase one in fall turn.
4 free fighter factors per year
2 CLV can be activated max, but fighters must be paid for.

F171 CA,2NCL,2FF
S172 DN+,2NCL,2FF F172 CA,2NCL,3FF
S173 [CVA+ECL+2DE],CA,3NCL,6FF F173 CC,6NCL,6FF
S174 DN+, CA, 6NCL, 6FF F174 CA, 6NCL, 6FF
S175/7 [CVN+NAC+DWA+FFE],CA,5NCL,2DW,4FF F175/7 CC,NCA,6NCL,2DW,4FF
S176/8 DNG, CA, 6NCL, 2DW, 5FF F176/8 CA, NCA, 6NCL, 3DW, 4FF
S179+ [CVN+NAC+DWA+FFE],CA,5NCL,4DW,2FF F179+ CC,NCA,6NCL,HDW,3DW,2FF
S180+ DNG, CA, 6NCL, 4DW, 3FF F180+ CA, NCA, 6NCL, HDW, 4DW, 2FF

(FFB on turn 14-S177 and 16-S178)


CONFEDERATION OF THE GORN
Home
Admiral,CC,BC,3CL,COM,4DD,DDG,SC,2TG,FTL,2FTS
PWC - DN,HCD,3BD,HDS,(CL->LSC),(2CL+DD->CV+CLE+DE)
2nd
Admiral,CC,BC,CF,2CL,COM,4DD,DDG,SC
PWC - DNL,3HD,3BD,BDS
6th
Admiral,CC,BC,CF,2CL,COM,4DD,DDG,SC
PWC CM,2HD,3BD,BDS

Heavy battle, light battle, troop,scout, 3 monitors
2 free fighter factors per year

F168 BD
S169 HD,BDS F169 BD
S170 HD,BD F170 BD (CL->LSC)
S171 DN,HDS,BD F171 HD,BD
S172 HD,BDS F172 HD,BD
S173 DNL,CM,BD F173 (2CL+DD->CL+CLE+DDE),HD,BD
S174 CC,CM,HD,2BD F174 BC,2HD,2BD,DD
S175 DN,CM,HD,2BD F175 BC,2HD,2BD,DD

THOLIAN HOLDFAST
1st
CA,DD,3PC,SC
2nd
CA,DD,3PC,SC
3rd
CA,DD,3PC,SC
Home
DN,CA,DD,3PC,[3CPC],MB,Resv.
Neotholian 312th (turn 20)
Admiral2NDN,4NCA,6NCL

Troop, 2 monitor.
1 free fighter factor per year

S169 DN
S171 [BW+PCE]
S173 – F176
Peacetime - 6EPs worth of ships per spring turn, can be saved for larger ships.
Wartime
S17(odd) DN (or CA+PC) F17(odd) PC
S17(even) DD+PC F17(even) PC
S178 CA,DD,PC F178 CW,PC
S179 DN,PC F179 CW,PC.
And repeat.

The limits for subs/overall limits are now across double the time period. 1/turn is now 1/year. 1/year becomes 1/cycle. 2/turn becomes 1/turn. A cycle is a 2-year period starting on the odd-numbered years. Ships which are now limited to 1/cycle cannot be built/subbed/converted on subsequent turns (e.g. 1. if you sub a lyran CVL fall 172, you can’t sub another until fall 173 e.g.2. you can only sub a scout for a hull once/year).
Prime teams are only every spring. You can pay for one for 5EP in fall only. (exception Feds, who get a free one in Fall).
Each SB can do two 2-pt conversions/year or any minor conversion and a 1pt conversion. SBs doing more than 1 conversion/year must do both conversions on different turns. Capital SBs can do a major and 2pt conversion per year, or two minor conversions of any type.
Conversions are otherwise not limited except that they must conform to any overall limits on production, which are halved as outlined above.
50% economy. Exhaustion reduces you to 40% then 30%.

Suggested house rules to make all this more workable, reflecting reduced economies.
Repair rates are halved - BATS can no longer repair cruisers. B10s can still be repaired by SBs
FRDs now cost only 6EPs. Comconvoys only deliver 5EPs.
Maximum capital defence = 16PDUs. PDUs can only be placed 2/planet/turn max
Mothballs are activated at the normal rate.
Pods have the same limits, but you start with fewer of them. 1 set of pods per year. 1 tug per cycle.
Escort carriers only cost 1EP to convert from their base hulls.
Planets are devastated for twice the time period
Successful province raids now block all economy from the province next turn (planets unaffected).
Non-battle pods can only increase command rating to a maximum of 8.
Any combination of battle pods can command rating it to a maximum of 9.
(this is a mild reduction of command rating to reflect the fewer ships in the game).
B10s cost 4EP/roll, and require 50 points to complete. Sacrificing a C8 gives you 2 rolls for 8EP.

Note on free fighters
These have been intentionally put at less than half that of the main game, as I feel fighters lengthen the game. There has also been talk that it is too easy to build lots of carriers. However, the distribution of free fighters is more SFB rather than F&E. If one ignores SFB guidlines, then the following numbers of free fighters are recommended per year:-

Federation – 5, Klingon,Romulan,Kzinti,Hydran, - 4, Tholian -1, Gorn, Lyran -0.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 02:53 am: Edit

I've been thinking about this idea for a while now .... perhaps I should create a new topic for this, but I would like to see a "beer & pretzels" game (tho I don't drink) that could be played in a single night. However, my general idea is to scrap 90% of F&E and start over.

First off, cut the fleet size way Way WAY down. For crying out loud, the Feds start with 173 ships plus another 28 PWC. They have 30 CC/CA, 27 CL, 21 DD and 54 FF. That needs to be cut to about a third or so. Let's do away with carriers and other speciality ships, or at least severely restrict them.

Next, forget hexes ... more ships by regions. Playing around with it, I cut the map up thusly:

Lyran: 6 + 1 off-map + the LDR
Hydran & Kzinti: each 4 + 1 off map
Klingon: 9 areas
Federation: 13 + 2 off-map + Orion ... note that the Fed capital is two areas away from any border, all other races are one area from the border to any neighbor
Gorn: 6 + 1 off-map
Romulan: 8 + 1 on-map + 1 off-map, both unexplored (perhaps 7 + 2 + 1 ??)
ISC: 7 + 2 off-map
Tholians: 1 area ... can't do much with them.

The planets and bases all have to be reworked, of course.

Ships would be able to move two, perhaps three, areas per turn. Moving off a planet to the area it's located in is free; moving from an area to an enemy planet is one movement point. Crossing the border / Neutral Zone costs a movement point unless you control both sides of it.

I'd kind of like to see simultaneous movement somehow, rather than the current "Klingon Moves / Kzinti Watches" system. I'd like to "borrow" a few ideas from VICTORY IN THE PACIFIC ... ships can move one or two areas, then declare they are "patrolling" the area to "control" it; or they can move into a third area to attack/raid but will not control it afterwards. All ships must return to the NEAREST friendly base / planet at the end of each turn.

Do something to cut back on battle-fleet size, such as "there can be no more than twice the flagship's command rating of ships in an area".

Find ways to simplify combat, tho cutting fleet sizes back will do that. I'm thinking that there should be no more than three combat rounds per area.

Find ways to simplify economics ... cut out as much as possible. I'm thinking that if the game's time scale was changed to one turn per month, then repairs can be free BUT only at a rate of one point per month. Likewise, each race will have "X" number of slipways in their shipyard that can buld new ships at a rate of one point per month. On the other hand, that'll cut many years off the war, no??

Also, perhaps if the Lyran, Hydran and ISC were cut off the map, and get the rulebook down to 32 pages or so, the game might appeal to non-SFB Star Trek fans.

Again, if anyone wants to continue this idea, I can move to another topic.


P.S> I picked up a game at ORIGINS that looks kind of fun. It's called FLEETS: A Game Of Galactic Conquest. I wonder what it cost them to make the little, plastic ships .... it'd be Way Cool to do "F&E Ultra-Lite" with plastic ships, you think??


Garth L. Getgen

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:35 am: Edit

General point on F&E lite

The 1-year old pan-galactic monster (my son mark) in a bout of unexpected strength, managed to wreck my playtest of this.

However, as far as things got (alliance turn 3), the game was playing excellently. Suddenly, the Zin started valuing every ship they had. The coalition would be forced to a somewhat slower tempo, but had managed to knock a few PDUs of the Zin capital hex turn 3, as well as doing over the Duke's SB turn 2. The count's still stood, but the reduction in ships had not slowed the coalition chronically.
The Hydrans, while not under as much pressure as usual, had been bottled up nicely by the coalition and did not attempt the expedition. I had, however, spent 3 hours working out how the Klingons were supposed to stop the expedition.

Reserves were much more powerful, as they represented a bigger fraction of the fleets. I liked this.
The reduction in command rating was a massive change for the better. With DNs (and lyran BCs) now being the only CR 10 ships, the Lyran command ship advantage manifested quite nicely, and DNs suddenly took the preeminance they were always supposed to have.

But then, I have a personal vendetta that battletugs can be so much cheaper than DNs, yet have the same compot and command. Their slight fragility is offset by their cheapness to repair.

As far as I got, I really was enjoying this game.

Oh well, I'm just going to have to play on the computer from now on (gamebox) if I want to do a big scenario (there is a limited amount of table space I can defend from my son as my house is small).

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:40 am: Edit

Garth

I think we should keep all ideas to substantially shorten F&E in the same thread. Your idea has a lot of merit, but the problem is that it will almost be an entirely new game. Perhaps you could try your hand at some OOBs?

One thing I have considered is to remove the multi-system capital hexes - just have one system with 2 planets or so. That will reduce economics and speed up things. Another thing could be to reduce all SBs to BATS and BATS to BS (except the capital) Removing the multi-system hexes will allow a substantail fleet reduction, as you will not need as many ships to defend your capital (say, 15 instad of 40 or so).

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 09:54 am: Edit

"Another thing could be to reduce all SBs to BATS and BATS to BS (except the capital) "

I guess I'm not sure why this is necessary.

Joe