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	Archive through August 02, 2003	25		08/03 04:39am

DL, if you are referring to the 20-30-40-etc.....that's not exactly new?

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:59 pm: Edit

Ok
2 major = 10
1 minor = 3
13 provinces = 26
Total income = 39/2 = 19.5
3.9 (20%) are converted leaving 15.6 EP's
10 more are converted leaving 5.6 EP's

Bonus planetary income = 13 *.4 = 5.2
So the Hydran gets 19.1 XTP and 5.2 EP's per turn.
Ok thats 2 X ships and one other ship per turn, maybe an extra ship now and then. Lets call it 7 ships a year maybe 9 if they build smaller ships, thats nothing to write home about.

Lawrence, if need is the criteria you can wipe the entire proposals section clean. Its just an idea, specifically an idea to help out the alliance probably in exchange for something that would help out the coalition.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 11:09 pm: Edit

"Joe, for those 11 additional provinces does that take into account the recent changes that make provinces require more survey points the more you have found? "

Yes.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 12:33 am: Edit

Ed,

I used the wrong entry date for the Hydran X-ships, so I still had them at 75% instead of 50% econ. Even so, 2-3 X-ships a turn are still something.

On top of this, X-ships aren't the ONLY tool the Hydrans have. PFs are one. Sure, the enemy gets them, but how many PF tenders do you think will be devoted to the Hydran front? How many ships period?

Assuming they don't build frigates, the Hydrans will have 107 ships by Coalition T7, minus whatever they lose to DirDam. If they retreat in good order after drubbing the Coalition on the final capital assuault, they should still be somewhere around 70-80 ships. These ships should be harrassing the Coalition constantly.
In addition, once the shipyard is back online, they'll be producing 3-5 ships per turn. Over 20 turns, that's going to add up. If the Coalition have to devote an extra 65-110 SE (due to the Hydran fighters) to hold the Hydran at bay, that's a big chunk of ships. As much as they might want to, there is a strong chance that they will not do it, unless things are going well elsewhere. That gives the Hydran the chance to do something.

I also still not convinced that it is always so easy to get the 2 SB up. If the Hydrans are intact and haven't run off the map, they can at LEAST make you pay for it.


Joe

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 04:39 am: Edit

Joe, operating off of 5.6 EP/turn plus the 2 X ships they build how many PF's are the hydrans really going to afford? even if they don't convert the EP->XP they only have ~15.6 EP/turn to deal with construction/repairs/PF replacements

yes they can trade in some of their free fighters for PF's, and I guess since they aren't building ships to put them on it makes sense to do so

if the hydrans haven't been forced offmap they don't get the 50EP guild treasury. even if they don't want to go offmap wouldn't the coalition love to have them try and defend a minor planet after they have lost the capitol? it would seem that the coalition would just direct on ships and accept the extra damage from the PDU's until the fleet retreats and then let the damage fall to kill the PDU's

By Richard Abbott (Catwhoorg) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 07:10 am: Edit

CFant.

I have played 2 games to past 30 (one coalition win, one alliance win) plus an additional one where the Coalition won on 3 capitals (H,K and all 3 G) in the 20's.

All of these games where pre-expansions.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 07:51 am: Edit

"Joe, operating off of 5.6 EP/turn plus the 2 X ships they build how many PF's are the hydrans really going to afford? "

You are forgetting a few things

1) (502.615) allows PFs not placed on bases or PDUs (because they have ben destroyed and not replaced) to go into a pool, which can be used on PFTs of that race. That gives the Hydran 18 flotillas right off the bat (and there has never been an indication that these would have to be deployed on offmap planets or bases, but even then, that would leave 11).

2) Hydran PF deployment starts on turn 23, and X-ships are T30, so they have 7 turns to build up their PFT force before X-ships

3) Free fighter factors can be traded in for PFs at a 4:1 ratio. Whatever FFF are not used to make your ships can should be traded in. Pre- X-ship, I'm thinking the Hydrans build LM, RN, HR, NPF in the spring, and LM (for PAL; 701), DG, HR, NPF in the fall (60EP/year; attainable if the Hydrans save a few EPs here and there prior to PF deployment). That consumes 9 FFF per year, leaving 3 that get turned in 12 PFs, enough for your new PFTs.

4) The Hydran fleet SHOULD still be onmap. If they are, they are (or should be) occupying a planet and a province. That's going to scrape up a few more EP. If the Coalition cuts off the route to the offmap (creating a partial grid), you attack to open up the route.... he's given you a perfect opportunity where he needs to fight you. You can attrite him.

I think I'm going to write a tacnote about running the Hydrans after the capital is gone.

Joe

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 09:36 am: Edit

"On top of this, X-ships aren't the ONLY tool the Hydrans have. PFs are one. Sure, the enemy gets them, but how many PF tenders do you think will be devoted to the Hydran front? How many ships period? "

Joe, its real simple and I have stated this before I think as the coalition that each turn enough force MUST be sent to the Hydran theater to keep them bottled up, everything else is discretionary.

Coalition jobs each turn (in order of priority)
#1 Keep the Hydrans bottled up
#2 Keep threats away from the coalition home worlds

If you let the Hydrans back in their homeworld they are just going to keep coming, that means that if you fail at #1, you are most likely going to fail at #2.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 11:27 am: Edit

Ed,

While I agree with you, I just don't see it happening indefinitely. If the Alliance are still in the war when CVBGs come out, it is going to put some serious pressure on the Coalition. Since it just suddenly turns on instead of phasing in, the effects are pretty dramatic, especially against the Roms. This allows the Feds to either devote more forces against the Klingons, or forces the Klingons to try and support the Roms, either of which make it harder (though not impossible) to cover the Hydran theatre properly.

Even in my most crushing victory (my opponest conceded the game on T17 when the Lyrans moved to attack the Gorns), the Hydrans still posed a serious threat, and we never totally contained them. They are just too powerful if they don't fritter away their fleet.

Joe

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 01:15 pm: Edit

If the Coalition has 2xSB, 10xPDU, and a moderate fleet (say 1-2 4EW scouts, 1-2 DN/BT, 1-2 maulers, no SFG, several LAVs & SAVs, no other specialty) defending the Hydran homeworld, the Hydrans will need around 1.5-2 times the number of ships to have a chance of recapturing the hex (IMHO).

When the Hydrans do come in, they're going to have 1 shot only to do it. If they attack & get unlucky rolls, or make some mistake that causes them to lose the hex, they'll take so long to recover that they'll become irrelevant.

Even if they do retake the hex, they should have a significant number of cripples/dead to recover from. If the Klingons & Lyrans divert some ships & 1 turns production to the theatre, they could very well retake the capital.

At ~30 EPs per turn after exhaustion, how will they repair their cripples and still build new ships? Will they even have facilities available to do repairs? How can they become a "race to be feared" again?

I'm not saying it's impossible for the Hydrans to retake their homeworld (although highly improbable). However, I do think it nearly impossible for them to do it in the manor they did historically (ie, with WOF type forces available after they retook the hex). Whether or not they succeed, their fleet will probably be unable to do anything else for several turns while they recover. Even after they recover, where are they going to attack? There are no planets or worthwhile targets in range of their systems (the whole 6 hexes from Hydrax problem).

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 02:20 pm: Edit

WoF had a rule about the Lyrans not being involved in Sector A, the Hydran theater. History of the General War states the Lyrans, when the Firewall bases were dropped, retreated to their original border following some type of cease-fire agreement.

So just take the WoF rule about Lyran non-activity and create conditions under when it kicks in.
A - Hydrans come on-map to some degree.
B - Hydrans retake the homeworld.
C - Something else.

Better than any economic rules. Once the condition is met, the Hydrans only have to worry about the Klingons.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 02:33 pm: Edit

One thing that has always bugged me is that the Lyrans are the only race in the game that leave/can leave their territory completely devoid of ships. It is not a thing that needs to be addressed really, but just does not make a great deal of sense. You would think that each governemnt would still need a "Piracy Patrol" or some such in case of emergencies.

By John Colacito (Sandro) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 04:48 pm: Edit

Tony, great post, I agree wholeheartedly, you summed up my thoughts on Hydran (post-Hydrax) difficulties perfectly.

"I think I'm going to write a tacnote about running the Hydrans after the capital is gone. "

Joe, please do so, make it an article if you have the inclination, I'd love to read some more of your ideas because I just don't share your optimism and would like to be convinced otherwise.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 09:31 pm: Edit

"If the Coalition has 2xSB, 10xPDU, and a moderate fleet (say 1-2 4EW scouts, 1-2 DN/BT, 1-2 maulers, no SFG, several LAVs & SAVs, no other specialty) defending the Hydran homeworld, the Hydrans will need around 1.5-2 times the number of ships to have a chance of recapturing the hex (IMHO). "

While that's true, the trick is to keep it from happening.

Joe

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 09:54 pm: Edit

Joe, the piece that I am missing from this puzzle is how the hydrans manage to maintan the on-map presense you are describing.

it would seem to me that the undamaged portion of the fleet that drove the hydrans off the capitol would suffice to drive them away from any other on-map location.

unless the coalition strips the hydran theater immediatly after sacking the capitol they have a few turns where they can pin the hydrans away from the capitol and get defenses started there, and with much of anything beefing up the fleet there the hydrans will losse more then they gain by trying to get in there to prevent additional defenses being built.

since the coalition will be able to force 4-5 rounds of combat for the hydrans if they want to get into the captiol (two at the capitol, one approach, one from ships that react out from the capitol and possilby another one or two if the coalition positions a fleet closer to the offmap area to intercept them on the way to the capitol) the hydrans will loose at least four ships to get to the capitol and kill a tug setting up a MB (or base upgrade) and a PDU being deployed (assuming they have enough SE to get there at all)

the coalition fleet that sacks the capitol is a lot larger then the hydran fleet, even after you remove all cripples and other casualties it's still probably significantly larger (if it wasn't the hydrans could stay and fight and destroy the invading fleet instead of retreating and loosing the shipyard)

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 10:08 pm: Edit

That's not really accurate.

See, the trick is that dead Hydran fighters regenerate. So, yes, the Hydrans can be chased away, BUT their fleet will be completely refilled with fighter factors. At the same time, the Coalition has dead/crippled ships.

Ask Tim Losberg about this. We played in Winds of Fire, and the Hydrans were dramatically outnumbered. The Klingons managed to recapture Hydrax, because Tim put all of the Klingon GHQ forces in the Hydran theatre.

His first turn (26), we fought an epic 20-something round battle. And the Hydrans were forced to leave. But except for the ships that Tim directed on, the Hydran fleet was basically intact.

Meanwhile, the Klingon fleet, which was not directed on, had a bunch of crippled/killed ships.

On the Hydran turn, I went into the Capital again, and we fought something like 10+rounds. And again, the Klingon fleet got plastered. The Hydrans still had to leave, but it was pretty obvious that I was going to be able to recapture the Hydran Capital on turn 27. And it should be noted that the Klinks started the scenario with a dramatic ship advantage -- maybe Tim remembers the exact figures.

That is what an intact, non-crippled Hydran Navy can do. Yes, the Coalition can direct on you... but at the same time, you are pummeling him. And this is at the same time (in most games) where the Klingons have to start dealing with the Federation, so they cannot reinforce this front to the same extent as they did pre-Fed entry.

The key is DON'T cripple your own ships. Run away when you fighters are gone. Hide behind your carrier groups when necessary to avoid losing too many cruisers.

And there is another way to prevent those bases from going up on Hydrax... but I'm not going to reveal it (after all, I have to use it against Joe).

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 10:37 pm: Edit

"And there is another way to prevent those bases from going up on Hydrax... but I'm not going to reveal it (after all, I have to use it against Joe). "

Hehe. I already know what it is.

Joe

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 10:50 pm: Edit

Oh, please tell me

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 11:07 pm: Edit

Ahh, I forgot about the fighters getting used up during the assault and being replaced

By John Colacito (Sandro) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:00 am: Edit

Pete, Joe,

You guys are making it sound too easy. All this mysterious talk, hints and innuendos as usual. Ya pricks.

The Hydrans will have about 150 fighters max turns 6-7. That’s a staying power of 4-5 rounds. The Coalition will have some fighters of its own and an EW shift in their favor as well, this will mitigate your damage. Sure it will be painful but a dedicated Coalition player can eventually push you far away enough from the capital to set up the defenses he needs.

There are other scenarios as well. What if you are cut off from the off-map during the turn Hydrax falls? Your fighters will not get replenished for at least a turn and you might have trouble even getting into supply for combat with your reduced movement rate. Off-map reserves won’t help during the initial turn as you were in supply over your capital before it died.

There are other tricks to setting up defenses in a captured capital but now its my turn to be secretive... ...I'm not giving my opponents any ideas. Oh wait, maybe I'll tell you my secret if you tell me yours?

Seriously, I do agree that the one thing the Hydrans have in their favor is timing. If they go down turn 6-7 then the Coalition will have be hard pressed to push the Hydrans off-map while blitzing the Feds. This might be the good reason to delay (or speed up?) the Hydran conquest or even <gasp> take the Fed invasion a bit slower.

By John Colacito (Sandro) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 12:12 am: Edit

You know, speaking of off-map reserves...how exactly do they help keep the OC connected to the capital?

Ed- sorry for hijaking your topic.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 01:05 am: Edit

Sandro,

You have to understand. We are ni the middle of a game. If either of us lets on too much of what we know, or what we think the other guy knows, the outcome could be greatly affected.

I'll be happy to tell you what I'm talking about via e-mail. Send me a message and I'll reply.

"You guys are making it sound too easy."

It isn't easy. It's just that many of the people here are saying it's impossible, and that just isn't true.

I've posted the first part of the Hydran strategy in the TacNotes section. I'm not sure when I'll post the follow up. If I post it soon, it will be missing a few things, so I'll have to repost it after we hit that part of the game. Or I might just wait and post the whole thing at once. I'm not sure.


Joe

By Pete DiMitri (Petercool) on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:57 am: Edit

San:

You guys are making it sound too easy. All this mysterious talk, hints and innuendos as usual. Ya pricks.

Thanks, I love you too. Seriously, when have I ever held much back from you? I don't think it's easy, as Joe said, I just don't think it's impossible.

The Hydrans will have about 150 fighters max turns 6-7. That’s a staying power of 4-5 rounds.

Not necessarily. Most Coalition players direct every round. This extends the staying power of your fighters. If they aren't directing, then you leave after 5 rounds without a scratch.


The Coalition will have some fighters of its own and an EW shift in their favor as well, this will mitigate your damage.

1 -- Sure, they'll have fighters. But how many? With 2 other fronts, how many carriers you think they are going to have there.

2 -- They can still only put 18 on the line at most, and you will be scoring 30-40 points every round.

3 -- Don't be so sure that they will have EW superiority. Hydrans have the Scout Tugs, PGS, and LNS (at turn 6).

Sure it will be painful but a dedicated Coalition player can eventually push you far away enough from the capital to set up the defenses he needs.

Maybe. But only if the Coalition is continually reinforcing the front. And if the Coalition is doing that when they are dealing with the Feds, this is a good thing for the Alliance.

And there is that other way...

There are other scenarios as well. What if you are cut off from the off-map during the turn Hydrax falls?

Well, you've got to plan for that and prevent it from happening. It is possible to do so.

Off-map reserves won’t help during the initial turn as you were in supply over your capital before it died.

They can still help dude. Think about it. It's been made easier with CO.

There are other tricks to setting up defenses in a captured capital but now its my turn to be secretive... ...I'm not giving my opponents any ideas. Oh wait, maybe I'll tell you my secret if you tell me yours?

It's only a secret from Joe, and he may know it anyway. Like I said, I pretty much tell you everything.

Seriously, I do agree that the one thing the Hydrans have in their favor is timing. If they go down turn 6-7 then the Coalition will have be hard pressed to push the Hydrans off-map while blitzing the Feds. This might be the good reason to delay (or speed up?) the Hydran conquest or even <gasp> take the Fed invasion a bit slower.

Yup.