David L.

"Joe, I´m curious how many ships it takes to block that route. "


Well, if you do like me, you've got 4 reserve fleets between 0709 and 1009. 49 ships. Not easily accessible from Kzinti space, and requires a BIG commitment from the Hydrans to get close enough to be able to retrograde to Kzinti space.

On top of that, I've got my reserve at 1212 and 0411. Unless the Hydrans leave bread crumb ships behind, I WILL cut his fleet out of supply, and away from the capital.

I'll trade early Fed entry for that.

Joe

By John Smedley (Ukar) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 04:42 pm: Edit

Remember that the Klingons only have 2 reserve markers (max) in theater. The Home fleet and SR are not released (so TBS and NR reserves are all that is available). The Lyrans have 3 reserves, one of which is likely on 0411.

If the Hydrans enter Klingon space, things are a bit different. I didn't enter Klingon space at all.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 04:44 pm: Edit

The Klingons are released the instant that a Hydran enters Klingon territory. I believe the NZ hexes also count for that purpose.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 04:52 pm: Edit

John,

Right, and both Klingon reserves are at 1009, and two Lyran ones at 0709. 49 ships. Did the Hydran not move through the K-L neutral zone?

By Tony Barnes (Tonyb) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 04:55 pm: Edit

Joe, in that game, the Expedition went exclusively through Lyran space...

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 05:00 pm: Edit

"in that game, the Expedition went exclusively through Lyran space... "

K. So he still has to get past the Enemy's Blood, Far Stars, my 2 Lyran Reserves, and the 60+ ships strung between 0504 and 0906.

And the 2 Klingon Reserves at 1009 can still participate in any combat.

By John Smedley (Ukar) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 05:23 pm: Edit

A small correction of my earlier statement: The SR is released as soon as the Hydrans attack the Klingons or Lyrans. It must be on the SR SB, however, so it is still not relavent to this discussion.

Joe: Remember that the Coalition must still block the traditional expedition. I strongly considered this prior to choosing the Kzinti route.

I do think the expedition can be stopped. I'm not sure it can be stopped without the coalition curtailing it's turn 3 offensive.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 05:33 pm: Edit

I'm absolutly sure the expedition can be stopped, it's just a matter of diverting enough ships to the right place, the question is just how many ships and how much does that disrupt the rest of the coalition plans.

while it would be a significant change from the way the game has been played in the past I'm not sure it would be that bad of a thing for the turn 3 offensive into hydran space to be weak (it was after all a attack by the hydrans, they didn't know they would be free to invade)

on the other hand it may be that the right answer is a rule change that prevents the fast-ship-through-kzinti-space expedition fom working

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 05:34 pm: Edit

"Joe: Remember that the Coalition must still block the traditional expedition. I strongly considered this prior to choosing the Kzinti route.

I do think the expedition can be stopped. I'm not sure it can be stopped without the coalition curtailing it's turn 3 offensive. "

The Home, Southern Reserve, Western and Eastern Fleets are around for that. I based the bulk of the Eastern Fleet at 1813 (the pinch point), and the Home Fleet at 1212. There's over 125 ships, and two Reserve markers.

Certainly, the Expedition is possible (I've already worked out a plan that SHOULD have a pretty good chance of making it, and no, I won't post it). But if the Coalition sets up its forces with the expedition in mind, it shouldn't curtail anything.

Mind you, On T3, My reserves are likely to be somwhere that they can interdict the expedition (we are just finishing up Coalition T2 now)

Joe

By Eric Stork (Merchant) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 05:37 pm: Edit

The expedition can be stopped.

Joe says he can do it.

I've seen a setup by Pete that did it.

Not that hard.

By Joe Stevenson (Ikv_Sabre) on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 05:37 pm: Edit

"on the other hand it may be that the right answer is a rule change that prevents the fast-ship-through-kzinti-space expedition fom working "

I would only agree if there was a lot of evidence that this was happening "often". One data point isn't enough.

Tell you what. If Pete succeeds effortlessly, I'll change my view
(If anyone can do it, it would be him)

By John Colacito (Sandro) on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 07:10 pm: Edit

I'm all in favor of some kind of "Romulan Reaction" rule. Anything that would allow an otherwise fruitless game to continue is cool.

Bumping up Rom entry to 3-4 turns after the Feds enter would still give the Alliance plenty of incentive to try the Expedition. Then let the Gorns come in two turns after the Roms. Everyone is happy...

By Kenneth Jones (Kludge) on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 07:08 am: Edit

The biggest problem with an earlier Rom reaction is that many of the variant types are NOT available until T10.

I looked at this very closely in the alternative GW start involving a Kligon strike against the Tholians. Even letting the Roms come in 1 turn earlier leaves many things completely unavailable.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 07:48 am: Edit

Hey that's good Kenneth. Having to work without every varient in the book makes things interesting.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 04:27 pm: Edit

What about a simple option for the Romulans, with concequences.

The Romulans choice

The Romulans were being urged by the Klingons to attack the Federation earlier, what if they had? If the Federation was pressed hard the Gorn might have responded earlier, so might the Tholians.

The Romulans may attack the Federation on turn 8 if they do so however the Gorn will immediately declare war on the Coalition. Yes immediately means they can use reserve and reaction movement during Coalition turn 8.The Tholians will declare war on the Coalition to support the Alliance at the beginning of Alliance turn 10.

The Romulans may attack the Federation on turn 9, however if they do so the Gorn will declare war on the Coalition during Alliance turn 10. The Tholians will also enter the war against the Coalition joining the Alliance side at the beginning of Alliance turn 15.

The Romulans may attack the Federation or Gorn on turn 10 or later as normal.

Early Romulan entry:
If the Romulans choose to attack the Federation early then they may use their wartime build schedule from that turn forward.

Early Gorn entry:
If the Gorn enter the war early because of Romulan aggressiveness then the Gorn begin using their full wartime build schedule from that time onward. They may operate on a Limited war economy if they choose or may operate at a Full wartime economic level.

Early Tholian entry:
If the Tholians become active they start building at a wartime economic level and with a wartime build schedule.



Also an emergency for the Alliance if the Feds falter.

What about if the Earth falls, how about something for the alliance if the Feds get blitzed.

Should the game be called if the Coalition takes the Federation capital? I don’t think so but if the Feds fall they are going to need some help and their buddies the Gorn are just the ones to step up and provide it.

Gorn emergency assistance
This option is activated if the Federation capital falls before the Gorn have entered the war. The Gorn immediately go to a wartime build schedule and economic level. All Gorn fleets are released and may move freely in Gorn and Federation territory. The Gorn may engage any Coalition ships in Federation territory but may not enter Coalition territory until turn 13. (1 turn later then normal) The restriction on entering Coalition territory is removed if any Coalition unit enters Gorn space.

By John Smedley (Ukar) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 04:33 pm: Edit

Ed

You are attempting to make a balanced proposal (and a good one). The question is do we need a rule to help the Coalition stay in the game if they falter. If so, the rule needs to be pro-coalition (as it is intended to prop them up). If such a rule has a balancing aspect, it should involve VP penalties and the like, not offsetting advantages for the other side.

Perhaps both proposals could be tied together. If the Expedition succeeds, the Roms can enter eary without binging the Gorns/Tholians in immediately (the Gorn's don't see the need since the Feds are doing well). The Roms can choose to enter early anyway via your proposal, but this has consequences.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 06:09 pm: Edit

Ooops my bad, this was a rexycled idea. I forgot the premise that the expedition had succeeded.
I think if the expedition succeeds you could easily delay Gorn entry a couple of turns.

By John Colacito (Sandro) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 03:06 pm: Edit

Let's keep this topic alive, I like the idea and don't want to see it die.

How many of you guys are totally against this proposal? Why? Would you still be against the idea if it was an optional rule? Do we stick with JS's original proposal? Should there be a VP penalty? If so how much?

A summary of the proposal in case you have recommendations for a change:

- Roms enter 3(4?) turns after Feds do
- Gorns enter 2 turn after Roms
- Coalition pays 30 VP penalty

We could always do something silly like the limited war options of (602.4), (603.5) and (603.6) Maybe the Roms send the Tholian Squadron and new production into Klingon space.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:23 pm: Edit

I personally am against an early Romulan entry followed by an early Gorn entry.

Reason being that the Romulans are too busy trying to build their fleets up. To bring them in many turns early makes them even less prepared to fight a war that they are not prepared to fight in the first place. Same goes for the Gorns.

By John Smedley (Ukar) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Thanks for the voice of support!

You may be right that a 3 turn delay is more appropriate than a 4 turn delay (as I origionally proposed).

I would also note that this should apply only to a Hydran activation of the Feds, to prevent abuse by the coalition invading the Marquis to invoke this rule.

By John Smedley (Ukar) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:36 pm: Edit

Jimi

Desperate times call for desperate measures. If the Klingons are on their heels facing an alliance that has achieved ship superiority on turn 8, then the Romulans should definitely be thinking "now or never". Waiting till their ally is forced completely out of Federation space will make attacking more difficult for the Romulans, as they will be sholdering the burden of the offensive alone.

By Tim Losberg (Krager) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:37 pm: Edit

Such a proposal actually favors the Coalition and penalizes the Alliance for daring to run the expedition. As stated elsewhere Early Rom entry allows them to better manage their economy and will result in a much tougher Romulan Fleet.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 04:42 pm: Edit

Historically, the Klingons did push the Romulans into attacking. That is what all the K hulls are for, bribes to attack the Feds. The Romulans just don't have the ships with which to attack the Feds any earlier then they do, nor do they have the economy.

In my opinion, if you activate the Gorns even earlier then they are activated, will just see the Romulans fall easier, quicker, and the Coalition die that much faster.

Sometimes the war falls into a spiral out of control for one side. The expidition brings the Feds in early, an Alliance positive, Hydrax falls that much easier with many less ship losses, that is the Alliance negative to a successful Expidition. Also a successful expidition means less Coalition ships needed to keep the Hydrans bottled up.

By John Smedley (Ukar) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:14 pm: Edit

Jimi

I think you are underestimating the effect on the coalition of a sucessful expedition, and overestimating the negative effect on the alliance.

I would note that the expedition succeeded in both Return of the Cruiser and Back to the Front, and the Hydran capital has not fallen by turn 9 in either game. In BttF, there are 20 PDUs and 2 SBs over Hydrax, so I think it's fair to say it's not going to fall...

Do you have any data to support your contention that the expedition makes taking Hydrax easier? Remember that while the Hydrans certianly have fewer ships, the coalition must divert forces to deal with the Feds - therefor they also have fewer ships with which to attack the Hydrans.

By Douglas E. Lampert (Dlampert) on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 05:19 pm: Edit

Tim, who says the Romulans GET their full wartime economy, they are still surveying their ON MAP empire prior to activation, they are building bases on the new areas, they are upgrading ships to totally new tech. If they do not still do that stuff they are crippled.

Historically they WERE at a full wartime economy, and what you start with is all they could build, why do you assume player control will be a big improvement. Much of what they 'build' or start with is conversions of stuff sent by the klingons or pulled out of their sublight fleet. They still need to pay for those conversions or lose the hulls WITHOUT getting the full price to spend on other stuff, since they are not paying the full price.

DougL