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	Archive through February 15, 2017	25		04/28 02:41pm

SVC, regarding the "That was harsh" comment. I apologize.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 01:50 pm: Edit

Nothing to apologize for. I think it was just a miscommunication and people thinking "dirt" meant "@#$%" instead of "clutter". I apologize for lack of clarity and my assumption that everyone got the reference.

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 04:08 pm: Edit

I thought it was funny.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Wednesday, February 15, 2017 - 05:18 pm: Edit

As the one who first used the term "dirt" in the context of the proposed Tholian photon rule, I can categorically state that it was used as referring to "clutter."

From my 13 Feb post: ". . . there is probably no point to adding the additional "dirt" to the game."

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Tuesday, April 28, 2020 - 02:41 pm: Edit

Steve Petrick, after reading through this entire thread, I have one exception to your view of F&E turns being a collection of actions over a span of 6 months. The issue of an enemy's being stuck in web will not wait months, weeks, days, or even hours. Under a base's P-4s the issue will be settled in minutes, and not very many of them.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Tuesday, April 28, 2020 - 05:58 pm: Edit

John Christiansen:

And the result is the same. The phaser-4s will not destroy a ship in a single turn, and the Klingons, Romulans, Lyrans, or Seltorians will rotate the ships (taking the damage on different shields) or pull the ships out of the web. There are also EW rules and scout channels to add to the EW rules. Basically it is not a case of the attackers sitting in web all the time and they do not enter the web without the advantage.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Tuesday, April 28, 2020 - 08:40 pm: Edit

SPP,

I have to disagree, I'm afraid. On multiple occasions I have seen the phaser-4s destroy a ship in one turn (one impulse, actually). A Tholian BATS has 8 phaser-4s an can alpha strike with at least 6 of them (8 in some circumstances). A base can lend itself ECCM (unlike a "normal" scout) so there is good chance those phaser-4s are firing with no ECM shift. Those 6 phaser-4s average 92 points of damage at 5 hexes. Subtracting 12 points (for firing through the middle web ring) leaves 80 points of damage, delivered in a single impulse. If the ship is a cruiser it will survive that alpha strike (though very badly damaged). But an F-5 will be vaporized.

Actually, if the F5 is putting pretty much every point of power it has available into a "brick" on the facing shield, it will probably survive as a gutted hulk that is so badly shot up it will be unlikely to play any further part in the battle. But throw in the 4 phaser-1s of a Tholian PC at three hexes (hiding behind the middle ring, shooting at an F5 on the trapped outer ring) and you're back to vaporizing the F5 in a single impulse.

And we still have two phaser-4s that haven't fired yet. Actually, with the base rotation rules, on certain impulses the Tholians would be able to alpha strike with all 8 phaser-4s We're now doing over 100 points of damage (even taking into account the damage reduction for the middle web ring) in a single impulse, just from the phaser-4s. Add in the phaser-1s from a couple of PCs and the Tholians can do a single impulse vaporization of a Klingon cruiser.

(Edited for spelling)

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 12:15 am: Edit

SPP,

The result is not the same. In addition to Alan's summary (never mind starbases), rules (512.314) and (512.32) come into play. These affect the flow of battle and future battle force compositions as the stuck cripples take up command slots.

What F&E lacks is any rule which penalizes the defender (Tholians in this case) for allowing enemy forces to rampage through their territory before assaulting the base.

By Greg Ernest (Gernest) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 09:27 am: Edit

John,

What Tholian space can you rampage through without attacking a base?

When I would put ships in the web, destroy them to resolve damage to put fresh ships in the line.

A few years back, someone wrote an article about how to take Tholia. There were massive casualties to the Klingons, but they won the day. Lots of salvage (which you only get when you win).

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 01:38 pm: Edit

Greg, my "rampage" comment is a response to SPP's comment in this thread on 02/14/17. The F&E hex is 500 parsecs across while a web wedding cake is 110,000 Km across. There're no consequences for Tholian ships to stay in the web while enemy forces are in the F&E hex. Those ships must come to the base to force the Tholians to fight or retreat. SPP is correct that in a F&E hex there can be months of maneuver and feinting going on, but once a ship is stuck in web the issue will be decided in minutes.

I believe you about the taking of Tholia without checking the CL.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 03:23 pm: Edit

I've taken the Tholian capital four times now in actual F&E games.

You will lose somewhere between 40-60 Coalition ships, depending on how the dice play out.

The key is to attack with about 150-175 (maybe 200) Coalition SEQ all at once and destroy every single Tholian base and capture the Tholian capital in one fell swoop. The capital assault is played last. If you do it any other way, the Tholians will rip you a new one.

In SFB, in my opinion, casualties would probably be MUCH higher.

By Ted Fay (Catwhoeatsphoto) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 03:25 pm: Edit

Oh, and that assumes you attack VERY early in the general war - turn 10, 11, or 12. If you wait till turn 15 or later the cost is much too high because the Tholians are building more and better ships in this time period.

So, in F&E, you either UTTERLY wipe out the Tholians in one fell swoop EARLY in the game - or you just leave them alone. None of this half-measures fighting stuff that seems to have happened in the official SFU history.

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 04:01 pm: Edit

Or you fail to capture the Dyson sphere and they get all the salvage and repair a lot and build stuff (historically what happened).

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 04:13 pm: Edit

John Christansen:

Ted Fay was not talking about starbases, he was discussing battle stations.

You have to accept that the webs are not always up to strength. The strategic situation may allow the Klingons to get in an attack. The Tholians do NOT keep their webs up to strength all the time. Bases do NOT have full protection at 100% all the time.

The game is six months of maneuver. In which the Tholian base is either taken by surprise, or it is not, It either has large numbers of Tholian ships to assist in bringing up webs in defense, or it does not. It gets attacked numerous times because the Klingons are maneuvering around it and sometimes the Klingons are driven off.

Sometimes it is damage and you cannot see the damage from the space of what is done. (It has lost some of its phaser-4s, and some other systems, but not enough to show as crippled in Federation & Empire.)

In any case, it is six months of a turn, and the base may survive to be fully restored, or it may not.

By Alan Trevor (Thyrm) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 04:19 pm: Edit

One difference between F&E and the "historical" Operation Nutcracker is that in F&E the attackers will know exactly what the Tholian fleet has available. Historically, the Klingons knew nothing about the Neo-Tholians until they actually encountered them during the invasion. The Klingons would have believed the most powerful Tholian ship they would have to face would be the DP, the dreadnought with photon torpedo refit. The DP is a decent ship but it is really a BCH-level combatant rather than something that can go toe-to-toe with a C8K. Then they invade and find themselves facing Tholian webcasters; a weapon the Klingons haven't seen since the early years, and then only on much smaller, weaker ships; and Neo-Tholian dreadnoughts that can (approximately) match their C8Ks in combat power. An F&E player never has to deal with this sort of #@!*&%$#!!! surprise if he chooses to invade the Holdfast.

By John Christiansen (Roscoehatfield) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 09:11 pm: Edit

SPP, I'm not arguing any of that. I never did. We're not disagreeing on any of that. Alan did an analysis of Klingon ships stuck in the web of a BATS. I didn't check his math, but he showed they won't last long. My "never mind starbases" emphasizes that SBs would be even more lethal to ships stuck in web.

My specific point from my first comment is in my statement, "The issue of an enemy's BEING STUCK IN WEB will not wait months, weeks, days, or even hours. Under a base's P-4s the issue will be settled in minutes, and not very many of them." (Caps for emphasis)

By Richard Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Friday, May 01, 2020 - 09:58 pm: Edit

I think one thing to note is that in SFB you don't really get to see how pitiful the Tholian fleet really is, even after the Neo-Tholians show up.

In F&E it's much more apparent - without web rules the Tholians would get crushed quite easily.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Saturday, May 02, 2020 - 07:34 am: Edit

Two things to keep in mind when dealing with the Tholians in SFB. One, the scenarios are balanced to make the game for fun for each side. With few exceptions all scenarios are created to be balanced. Two, the Tholians are almost always on the defensive in both F&E and SFB. This dictates their tactics.

I see no reason to change the existing rules. Doubly so since the EW/Rescue rules where fixed.

By Steve Petrick (Petrick) on Monday, May 04, 2020 - 05:25 pm: Edit

Sigh.

Look, the base is there and reflects the Tholian strong point.

The Klingons over six months are conducting operations that they hope will cause the base to be weakened. Ships strike targets around and behind the base. Tholian units that are damaged take shelter in the base (or deeper in Tholian space). Klingon units (such as the notional F5 Alan Trevor is using) that are badly damaged do not make it back to the Klingon lines.

This is accounted for in the dynamics of the game.

The Klingons are not directly attacking the base during the six months, unless the Tholians invite them to destroy it. But the fact of the base is preventing the Klingons from moving supplies and other logistic take forward because the Tholians can take refuge in the base after hitting a supply convoy.

It is six months and at various times the Klingons may raid the base when there are not sufficient ships to keep the webs up to strength. The Klingons may attack convoys bringing up spare parts and fuel to keep the base operational.

But it is not a fact that the Klingons are ensnared in the web except for the fact that the base is there and they cannot leave it behind.