Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through October 17, 2003	25		10/20 11:42am
	Archive through October 23, 2003	25		10/24 08:24am

Kevin, I don't think it will be quite as bad as you say (but it will be hard on CAs & CWs). You only get to kill them when you manage to successfully breach the line. Unless something in this thread has changed that I missed, that only happens if you role much better than your opponent and do more damage than he did. It would convince players to escort those carrier tugs in the reserves. That would tie up some battle group ships.

That might effect the alliance in the first 3 turns of the game, but after that, the Kzinti and Hydrans tend to be over their large fixed defenses where it would heavily favor them. It would hurt the Feds in their first few turns, but may help the Gorn over the Rom (with so many small ships).

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 10:53 am: Edit

Following your train of thought Daniel...

You think this will affect the Hydran's, Kzinti's, and the Feds in the early parts of the war. If this is the case then the rule may be heavily unbalanced because, as we all know, the beginning of the war can typically detail the outcome of the war. If the Alliance loses valuable heavy hulls early the war can quickly capsize into a major Coalition victory. If the Alliance is beaten early, then mid/late war matter not.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 12:09 pm: Edit

Actually, I think it would heavily favor the Kzinti and Hydrans from turns 4 until their capitals fall. Have you ever been able to outgun the Hydrans over their capital for more than the last couple of rounds before it falls? No. That will let the Hydrans hit more key units in the coalition back field. The same can be said of the Kzinti.

This idea strongly favors large fixed defenses. The attacker only has an advantage in locations where he can outnumber a defender who can't put a single decent battle line together. There are only a few times where the coalition can hit the alliance in multiple places where the alliance can't even muster a decent battle line for one round. Realistically, those are turns 2, 7 and 10.

On turn 1, the Lyrans can just barely outnumber the Kzinti in ships if they focus their forces on a few select targets and the Kzinti can easily maintain large battle lines for several rounds over fixed defenses making it hard for the Lyrans to blitz. The Kzinti generally does more damage too, as he’s commonly fighting at his bases.

On turn 2, the combined Lyran-Klingon attack would give them the advantage on this turn.

On turns 3 the Hydrans generally pick the Lyrans or the Klingons and hit that one race in mass. Having the numbers advantage the Hydrans would be the ones Blitzing the coalition. Coalition fixed defenses might hamper the Hydrans, but the Hydrans have the most powerful battle lines of the early war. If they want, they can match and even outgun their opponents at most BATs. The Kzinti are usually still falling back at this point so neither side has a Blitz advantage.

On Turn 4, if the Hydrans picked the Lyrans they then tend to defend in mass against the Klingons. If they picked the Klingons, they’re hoping to be half way to Fed space (or more) and if they’re not, they pull back to the homeworld real quick as their lines are overrun (nothings changing there). On the Kzinti side of the map, they tend to be pushed back to their major defenses, giving them the advantage of being able to Blitz the coalition attackers.

Turns 5 & 6 favor the defender.

On turn 7, the Klingons tend to throw a massive attack against the Feds, that’s not going to change, and the Feds generally fight for only as long as the boarder bases last, then retreat to save their ships. The Klingons would have a couple of chances to use Blitzing, but not against anything of much importance as the big important ships are all at the 3rd fleet SB, where the Feds would have the advantage on the line for the first several rounds.

Turns 8 & 9 depend on how much of the Fed boarder fleets survived, but almost all battles will be over alliance fixed defenses, giving the Blitz ability to the defender.

Turn 10, the Romulans will get a few chances to use Blitz against the Fed boarder fleet, but only at a few boarder bases.

No, I defiantly think that Blitzing as it is described currently favors the defender. Over the alliances fixed defenses the coalition generally won’t be able to do more damage and the current idea is that to Blitz you have to do more damage and role significantly higher. Hard to do when looking at multiple PDUs and Bases as well as a full battle line.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Thursday, October 23, 2003 - 12:41 pm: Edit

Daniel, I have to ask a question of you as to how you play the Alliance. As the Alliance player, how often do you direct on the Coalition? I find myself almost always letting the damage fall. Just because I did 90+ damage defending my homeworld, if I direct I just lost half my damage. If I'm trying to win the hex I find that I just cannot typically direct on the enemy. Also, even if I accomplish the requirements given in this proposal, I doubt that I will use this rule much as it will just end up getting 1, 2, or 3 more valuable ships crippled and/or killed. As a defender, you are usually outnumbered 2-1 (or worse) and to not only waste damage dealt, but to also lose another ship or 3 trying to 'blitz' is further insult to injury.

Would you, as an outnumbered defender, exchange a crippled cruiser to kill a cruiser? If you have 10 cruisers in the hex, and the enemy has 30 cruisers in the hex, you losing that one cruiser (10%) to his losing that one cruiser (3%) hurts you the defender much more (this is in addition to losing valuable damage dealt).

Now taken from the Coalition side - early war.

Over any fixed defense point I will never get to use this proposal. Occasionally in the rare open space fight I will get to use this proposal. I would LOVE to exchange a crippled cruiser to kill an Alliance war cruiser or better. The alliance just cannot afford to replace lost ship hulls, while I generally can.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Friday, October 24, 2003 - 08:24 am: Edit

Daniel, I would disagree with the 'benefits' being with the defender - due to the linking of the rule to a dice roll difference.

Example

Turn 3 Kzinti Main Force 102 Compot (CV+CLE+EFF, CV+CLE+FKE, CV+MEC+FKE, DN, TGT+SP, 2 x DD, 2 x Drone Ships is 102, 4 EW, 1 Adm or CP used) - defending a BATS/Minor Planet (or major with 2 PDU's) is 120

Attacker is a 'strong' Coalition force with 100 Compot.

Kz roll a 1 and get 20% (24 damage)
Co roll a 5 and get 30% (30 damage)

The Coalition get to Blitz against the Kzinti, as rolled 4+ over the Kzin AND did more damage - with having more ships, they can use the 'kill that ships - I am crippled' type rule.

Even a SB battle could result in a Blitz -

Same 102 Kz line + 48 SB= 150

A Major Coalition Line (DN+Drone) 110 (not too high to be unlikely, even early in the game - 2 x DN/C8, D6M, 3 x CA, BG (3 x D5, 3 x F5), D6D, D6S(S), 2 x Drone Ships is 110 Compot with 6 EW, with an Admiral or Command Point being used) - This line can easily go to 115-120 (DW instead of F5, 3rd drone ships makes it 118)

Same rolls 1(20%) and 5(30%) equals 30 damage and 33 damage.

Again, due to the roll being high enough to create a 'Blitz', the extra damage the high roll does is enough to overcome the defenders advantage in combat.

So early war, the fixed defences don't protect against blitzing (except at the Capital planet) - Hydrans might be slight better off infront of SB's, but they wouldn't do a high compot line infront of a BATS.

So, the rule would benefit the side with more ships (and gets the lucky roll at the right time) - which means the rule IS Pro-Coalition in the first few key turns (they have the ships and both sides should get lucky rolls equally).

Paul

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 11:09 am: Edit

Paul, Your example is flawed. You didn’t count in the EW of multiple PDUs. And the coalition line you are proposing is not going to pop up very often in the first two turns because of the number of coalition targets in turns one and two. Too may places to hit and not enough Klingon DNs and maulers. On turn 4, you might get that big a force at the Dukes SB but your EW is easily matched with a minor drop in the SB's AF. After that, battle will likely be at the capital. The Kzinti capital isn't just an SB or a BATS or a couple of PDUs. It's a lot more frightening than that. It’s generally multiple PDUs with 4 EW plus the TGT+SP giving the Kzinti the EW advantage. And that's not at any location with a base. When you actually get to the capital, it’s an SB, plus a probable BATs, plus 10 or more, plus the TGT+SP for 10 or more EW. How are you going to maintain an EW advantage there? Put 4 D6Ds on the line? With out that EW advantage, you aren’t going to get the die role advantage very often. The alliance on the other hand, will. They don’t have to take advantage of it, but they can. Klingon DNs are in short supply early on. They’re one of the few coalition targets worth attacking by blitz and they’re the one that the coalition needs in order to have a good chance to blitz often.

Jimi,

Without a rule like this, generally only when free targets like SFG ships get used by the coalition or when an important coalition unit is in short supply. That makes it rare, but on occasion I do it just to surprise my opponent. On average its best to let the damage fall 99% of the time.
With a rule like this, probably only a little more, but it’s a bonus that will give me more chances to hurt my opponent than it will give my opponent chances to hurt me. That in and of its self, is an advantage as my opponent will have to consider even more carefully if it’s worth it to put that DN in the battle force even if I only rarely take advantage of.
As for open space fights, the coalition might get to use it in the occasional one round of battle for any pinning fights. But as it’s generally safer for the alliance to wait at their bases & planets where you won’t get that advantage unless they can pin your entire force out, you probably won’t see them giving you that opportunity very often.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 01:52 pm: Edit

die roll modifiers and BIR shifts are currently the same thing, please don't add anything in that really cares about the difference between the two.

By Paul Howard (Raven) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 08:01 am: Edit

Daniel - you mentioned that the Coalition can't get a many lines like that 'as there are too many targets on turns one and two'.

This works both ways - if the Coalition is attacking multiple locations, the Kzinti will either be spread thin, protecting the main targets and afew others - or covering just the SB's with any real strength.

So either way - except where the reserves turn up, the Coalition will have an appropriatly 'matching' battle line to do the job - be it

1) A Small BATS busting force (say 6 ships) v a BATS an Frigate
2) A Main line force (say 24/35 ships in total) v a BATS/SB plus 15 ship Defending force.

In either case, the Attacker has an "equal" chance of getting a 'Blitz' - PURELY DUE TO THE REQUIREMENT THAT A DICE DIFFERENCE OF 4+ IS NEEDED. THIS WILL ALMOST CERTAINLY OVERCOME (EXCEPT AT THE HOMEWORLD!) ANY COMPOT DEFICIENCY.

EW - The Homeworld Planet (the other planets are fair game for Blitzing) is the only location, where in early rounds, it will be nearly (if not) impossible for the attacker to get a Blitz, should the defender ensure a -2 on the dice (as difference of 4 is needed, 6 v 1 will be a difference of 3) - the defender will have a big advantage and will only need to roll 2 higher (if there is a -2 on the attacker) to generate a Blitz, which is 'reasonably' possible on any given round.

Other planets/bases - Remember, the Coalition has a huge number of Scouts and can easily place one or two on the line

D6S plus 2 D6D's is 8 EW - so a SB can put up 6 EW and a Tug+SP will generate another 4.

The Attacker can ensure they have sufficient scouts to avoid a -2 shift - without any problems (just look at the number of SC/DWS's the Lyrans produce in the early turns of most games).

Major Planets with 4+ PDU's will give 4 EW, minors 2 EW. So the Coalition need to a place a D5S or DWS on the line to counter it - again not a problem.

So, I totally agree, in ONE LOCATION and one location only, the Attacker will almost certainly not achieve a Blitz, and the defender has a reasonable chance of doing so. (Only after most if not all the non SB defences are dead, will the attacker be possibly able to get more damage (even if they roll +4 or +5) than the defender, due to the large differences in compot (BIR 0 would be possible with 120 compot v 235!))

The rest, the attacker just has to take it into account.

Also remember, that any Alliance COUNTERATTACKS, will face any 'problems' which you beleive the Coaltion will suffer - and the Alliance doesn't
have piles of scouts to up their EW with.

The Way to stop a Blitz againt you, is to ensure you win the EW war (which I think most people will generally agree is even/fair with Coalition attackers v Alliance defenders....)...so it it down to the players to ensure they have local superiority!

So, I am not convinced that this would destroy the Early Coalition attacks - indeed I am still of the opinion that overall it is a Pro-Coalition rule.

By Daniel G. Knipfer (Dgknipfer) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 12:34 pm: Edit

Yes. There are times that the coalition will be able to Blitz into the alliance point advantage. But that point advantage will make it less often then if battle lines are equal and the coalition will have to get luck and have their best lines up at the right time in order to do so. The alliance will be over their fixed defenses where they will be much more likely to be able to achieve the requirements, forcing a change in coalition strategy to take the Blitz into account. That creates an alliance advantage.

The alliance only counter attack now in places where they can get at a target where the coalition can’t stop them. That won’t change. By default, they will have to have enough ships to prevent the coalition from pinning them out, so they are going to be able to generate their best lines for the one or two turns that they need to destroy their target before leaving so they won’t be nearly as disadvantaged as the coalition was on its attack. Remember, I said the coalition will get the advantage on turn 2 when BATs busting. The only real viable alliance targets are MBs, BATs and FRDs. There are very few times in the first ten turns where the alliance is stomping SBs. So the alliance will not be disadvantaged by fighting against an SB the way the coalition will.

Every D6D on the line is not providing drone support. Most other scouts loose compot. With PDU EW most battles will start with parity or a slight alliance EW advantage unless the coalition wants to stack the odds at that location. To do so, they will have to pull scouts from other targets until they can bottle up the alliance in their capitals. Every place they force an advantage forces them to give one up somewhere else. D6S are in short supply and CWS hulls aren’t available for the first 5 or so turns of the war. DWS and F5S don’t cut it against fixed defenses when trying to push for an EW advantage.

At no point did I say that this Blitz rule would destroy the early coalition attack. I said that it would be a slight alliance advantage. Alliance advantage does not equal coalition defeat.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 01:32 pm: Edit

It might be that it is a slight coalition advantage at the start, I'm not denying it, but, if the Coalition wishes to use that advantage, they are putting their quality ships on the line, for a chance to use the Blitz.

Thus, risk with benefit. If they don't choose to use the risk, they get no benefit, thus no advantage.

By Jimi LaForm (Laform) on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 01:40 pm: Edit

They allready put their quality ships on the line. If I was the Coalition I would LOVE the early war Alliance to direct on my quality ships. I can build more while they cannot afford to lose damage.