Subtopic	Posts		Updated
	Archive through July 23, 2014	25		07/23 09:29pm

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Quote:

dial-a-shipyard

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By Keith Plymale (Zaarin7) on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 09:25 am: Edit

Perhaps rather than rate it by specific ship types the rate could be done by hull size for replacement. In other words it should not cost as much for a size class 4 shipyard as it does a size class 2 or 3.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 09:35 am: Edit

Keith, MSYs have different costs for hull type. FFs are 10, DWs 15 and CWs 20.

By John de Michele (Jdemichele) on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 11:05 am: Edit

I think this is a solution in search of a problem. It adds a lot of bookkeeping for very little gain. And, if you can delete slips to save money, why can't you spend more to add more? After all, who wouldn't want to be able to construct another size class 2 ship? Or 10? Buying by the slip assumes that slips are all (or even a substantial part) of the cost of replacing a capital.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 02:07 pm: Edit

Perhaps this is the kind of option that might find more use once the Andromedans show up?

Historically, the ISC capital complex came under Andro attack in the early waves of the Invasion, due to the over-exposure of the core region (which the Concordium had thought secure from outside assault during the course of the Pacification). However, the Andros didn't manage to go so far as to smash the shipyards at Veltrassa itself.

But in a future game of Andro War in which an Andromedan player did succeed in destroying the ISC capital yard and hollowing out the core of Concordium territory, how might a rule like this affect the ISC player's ability to re-build a fleet yard in later turns?

(Depending on how the Invasion goes elsewhere, perhaps the same question may need to be answered for other empires also.)

By John de Michele (Jdemichele) on Thursday, July 24, 2014 - 02:14 pm: Edit

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Quote:

But in a future game of Andro War in which an Andromedan player did succeed in destroying the ISC capital yard and hollowing out the core of Concordium territory, how might a rule like this affect the ISC player's ability to re-build a fleet yard in later turns?

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By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 05:40 am: Edit

Does off map even apply to Andromedans?

STRONG: This has not been defined yet and will need to be addressed in AndroWar.

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 08:20 am: Edit

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Quote:

Does off map even apply to Andromedans?

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By John de Michele (Jdemichele) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 11:14 am: Edit

I think we're getting away from the main issue here. As I see it, there is one question that needs to be answered: Does the cost of replacing a capitol shipyard represent, completely or mostly, infrastructure, rerouting supply chains, shifting of non-military assets, and other 'out of game' changes, or, is it mostly the actual rebuilding of slips?

If the cost represents infrastructure management, then I think variable shipyard replacement costs does not make sense. We have a mechanism in place that's not dependent on off-map areas, that can handle partial replacement (i.e., Medium Shipyards), and that does not require too much bookkeeping.

If, on the other hand, the cost is simply to replace hardware, then we need to take into account the fact that everyone's build schedule increases for free (for now, at least), and that it seems pretty arbitrary to have to pay more for something that currently doesn't cost extra. In addition, if piecemeal replacement is ok, does that mean an empire can choose to change up their build lineup?

By Randy Blair (Randyblair) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 12:07 pm: Edit

Below, I have broken down production for each empire, based on slipways.
It makes sense to me that when an empire gains new production capability that it would be normally subsumed in the "behind the scenes" economics (read: out of the control of the player).
So, to construct it piecemeal I would think would be fairly straightforward.

DATA BEGINS

Federation Capital Shipyard

Y168F
1 LCD - DN activated

Y169S
1 LCD -
2 MCD - CVB, DE
1 SCD - FFE

Y169F
1 LCD - DN activated

Y170S
1 LCD -
2 MCD - CVB, DE
1 SCD - FFE

Y170F
1 LCD - DN activated
3 MCD - 3xNCL
3 SCD - 3xFF

Y171S
1 LCD - CVA
6 MCD - 3xNCL, 2xDE, ECL
4 SCD - 3xFF, FFE

Y171F
1 LCD - DN
4 MCD - CA, 3xNCL
3 SCD - 3xFF

Y172S
1 LCD - CVA
7 MCD - ECL, 2xDE, CA, 3xNCL
3 SCD - 3xFF

Y172F
1 LCD - DN+
7 MCD - CA, 6xNCL
6 SCD - 6xFF

Y173-4S
1 LCD - CVA
15 MCD - ECL, 2xDE, CC, CA, 10xNCL
12 SCD - 12xFF

Y173-4F
1 LCD - DN+
14 MCD - 2xCA, 12xNCL
12 SCD - 12xFF

Y175-8S
1 LCD - CVA
15 MCD - NAC, CC, CA, NCA, 11xNCL
14 SCD - DWA, FFE, 4xDW, 8xFF

Y175-8F
1 LCD - DNG
15 MCD - 2xCA, NCA, 12xNCL
14 SCD - 5xDW, 9xFF

Y179S+
1 LCD - CVA
15 MCD - NAC, CC, CA, NCA, 11xNCL
14 SCD - DWA, FFE, HDW, 7xDW, 4xFF

Y179F+
1 LCD - DNG
15 MCD - 2xCA, NCA, 12xNCL
14 SCD - HDW, 8xDW, 5xFF


Klingon Capital Shipyard

Y168-70F
1 LCD -
12 MCD - D7C, D7, D6, 9xD5
9 SCD - 2xF5Q, 3xE4

Y169-71S
1 LCD - C8
11 MCD - 2xD7, 9xD5
9 SCD - 2xF5Q, 3xE4

Y171-4F
1 LCD -
12 MCD - D7C, D7, D6, 9xD5
10 SCD - 3xF5Q, E4

Y172-4S
1 LCD - C8
11 MCD - 2xD7, 9xD5
10 SCD - 3xF5Q, E4

Y175-8F
1 LCD -
12 MCD - D7C, D7, D6, D5W, 8xD5
10 SCD - 3xF5W, 2xF5Q, E4

Y175-8S
1 LCD - C8
11 MCD - 2xD7, D5W, 8xD5
10 SCD - 3xF5W, 2xF5Q, E4

Y179F+
1 LCD -
12 MCD - D7C, D7, D6, D5W, 8xD5
10 SCD - HDW, 2xF5W, 2xF5Q, E4

Y179S+
1 LCD - C8
11 MCD - 2xD7, D5W, 8xD5
10 SCD - HDW, 2xF5W, 2xF5Q, E4


Romulan Capital Shipyard

Y168F
3 MCD - 2xSP, WE/KE (conversion)
1 SCD - SK

Y169S
3 MCD - 2xSP, WE/KE
2 SCD - 2xSK, 6xK4*

Y169F
4 MCD - 3xSP, WE/KE
3 SCD - 3xSK, 6xK4*

Y170S
5 MCD - SUP, 3xSP, WE/KE
3 SCD - 3xSK

Y170F
1 LCD - CON
3 MCD - 3xSP
3 SCD - 3xSK

Y171S
5 MCD - SUP, 3xSP, WE/KE
3 SCD - 3xSK

Y171F
1 LCD - SHR
4 MCD - FH, 3xSP
3 SCD - 3xSK

Y172S
1 LCD - KC9†
6 MCD - SUP, FFH, 3xSP, WE/KE
3 SCD - 3xSK

Y172F
1 LCD - CON
4 MCD - FH, 3xSP
3 SCD - 3xSK, [3SP>SPC]

Y173S-Y175S
7 MCD - NH, FH, 4xSP, WE
5 SCD - 3xSK, SEH, SN

Y173F-Y175F
1 LCD - CON
6 MCD - FH, 4xSP, WE
5 SCD - 3xSK, SEH, SN

Y176S-Y177S
8 MCD - NH, FH, 5xSP, WE
5 SCD - 3xSK, SEH, SN

Y176F-Y177F
1 LCD - CON
7 MCD - FH, 5xSP, WE
5 SCD - 3xSK, SEH, SN.

Y178S+
8 MCD - NH, FH, 5xSP, WE
10 SCD - HDW, 5xSK, 3xSEH, SN

Y178F+
1 LCD - CON
7 MCD - FH, 5xSP, WE
10 SCD - HDW, 5xSK, 3xSEH, SN


Kzinti Capital Shipyard

Y168F
2 MCD - BC, CL
3 SCD - DD, 2xFF

Y169S
3 MCD - BC, 2xCM
5 SCD - 2xDD, 3xFF

Y169F-Y173F
6 MCD - CV, MEC, BC, CL, 2xCM
6 SCD - EFF, 5xFF

Y170S-Y173S
1 LCD - DN
5 MCD - BC, 4xCM
6 SCD - 6xFF

Y174F-Y180F
6 MCD - CV, MEC, BC, NCA, 2xCM
6 SCD - DWE, 2xDW, 3xFFK

Y174S-Y180S
1 LCD - DN
5 MCD - BC, NCA, 3xCM
6 SCD - 3xDW, 3xFFK

Y181S+
1 LCD - DN
5 MCD - BC, NCA, 3xCM
6 SCD - HDW†, 4xDW, FFK

Y181F+
6 MCD - CV, MEC, BC, NCA, 2xCM
6 SCD - DWE, HDW†, 3xDW, FFK


Gorn Capital Shipyard

Y168F
1 SCD - BD

Y169S
2 MCD - HD, BD
1 SCD - BDS

Y169F
1 MCD - HD
2 SCD - 2xBD

Y170S
1 MCD - HD
2 SCD - 2xBD

Y170F
1 MCD - HD
2 SCD - 2xBD

Y171S
1 LCD - DN
2 MCD - HD, HDS
2 SCD - 2xBD

Y171F
1 MCD - HD
2 SCD - 2xBD

Y172S
1 LCD - DNL
1 MCD - HD
3 SCD - 2xBD, BDS

Y172F
1 MCD - HD
2 SCD - 2xBD

Y173S
1 LCD - DN
1 MCD - HD
3 SCD - 2xBD, BDS

Y173F
2 MCD - CV, CLE
1 SCD - DE

Y174S – 179S
1 LCD - DN
5 MCD - BC, CM, 3xHD
5 SCD - 4xBD, 1xDD

Y174F – 179F
6 MCD - CC, BC, CM, 3xHD
5 SCD - 4xBD, 1xDD

Y180S+
1 LCD - DN
5 MCD - BC, CM, 3xHD
5 SCD - HDW†, 3xBD, 1xDD

Y180F+
6 MCD - CC, BC, CM, 3xHD
5 SCD - HDW†, 3xBD, 1xDD


Tholian Capital Shipyard

Y168F
1 SCD - PC

Y169S
4 SCD - DN, PC

Y169F
1 SCD - PC

Y170S
4 SCD - BW, PCE, AWT, PC

Y170F
2 SCD - DDS, PC

Y171S
5 SCD - DN, DDV, PC

Y171F
2 SCD - PCE, PC

Y172S
4 SCD - BW, PCE, AWT, PC

Y172F
2 SCD - DDS, PC

Y173S
2 SCD - DDV, PC

Y173F
2 SCD - PCE, PC

Spring Y174-Y177
5 SCD - DN, PC (or CA, 2xPC), PC

Fall Y174-Y177
4 SCD - DD, 2xPC, PC

Y178S+
7 SCD - DN, CW, 2xPC, PC

Y178F+
7 SCD - CA, CW, DD, 2xPC, PC


Hydran Capital Shipyard

Y168F
2 MCD - DG, TR
3 SCD - 3xHN

Y169S
1 LCD - PAL (activation)
2 MCD - RN, HR
3 SCD - 3xHN

Y169F
2 MCD - DG, TR
10 SCD - UH, DE, 2xAH, 3xHN, 3xCU

Y170S
1 LCD - PAL (activation)
4 MCD - RN, 2xHR, TR
6 SCD - 3xHN, 3xCU

Y170F
5 MCD - CV, DG, 2xHR, TR
9 SCD - DE, 2xAH, 3xHN, 3xCU

Y171S
1 LCD - PAL
4 MCD - RN, 2xHR, TR
6 SCD - 3xHN, 3xCU

Y171F
4 MCD - DG, 2xHR, TR
10 SCD - UH, DE, 2xAH, 3xHN, 3xCU

Y172S
1 LCD - PAL
4 MCD - RN, 2xHR, TR
6 SCD - 3xHN, 3xCU

Y172F
5 MCD - CV, DG, 2xHR, TR
9 SCD - DE, 2xAH, 3xHN, 3xCU

Y173S
1 LCD - PAL
4 MCD - RN, 2xHR, TR
6 SCD - 3xHN, 3xCU

Y173F – Y175F
5 MCD - CC, DG, 3xCW
7 SCD - LN, 3xHN, 3xCU

Y174S – Y176S
1 LCD - PAL
4 MCD - RN, 3xCW
7 SCD - KN, 3xHN, 3xCU

Y176F – Y180F
5 MCD - CC, DG, MHK, 2xCW
7 SCD - LN, 3xDW, 3xFF

Y177S – Y180S
1 LCD - PAL
4 MCD - RN, IRQ, 2xCW
7 SCD - KN, 3xDW, 3xFF

Y181F+
5 MCD - CC, DG, MHK, 2xCW
7 SCD - LN, HDW†, 4xDW, FF

Y181S+
1 LCD - PAL
4 MCD - RN, IRQ, 2xCW
7 SCD - KN, HDW†, 4xDW, FF

Lyran Capital Shipyard

Y168S – Y174S
1 LCD - DN
5 MCD - CA, 4xCW
6 SCD - 3xDW, 3xFF

Y168F – Y174F
6 MCD - BC, CA, 4xCW
6 SCD - 3xDW, 3xFF

Y175S – Y179S
1 LCD - DN
5 MCD - CA, NCA, 3xCW
6 SCD - 3xDW, 3xFF

Y175F – Y179F
6 MCD - BC, CA, NCA, 3xCW
6 SCD - 3xDW, 3xFF

Y180S+
1 LCD - DN
5 MCD - CA, NCA, 3xCW
6 SCD - HDW†, 4xDW, FF

Y180S+
6 MCD - BC, CA, NCA, 3xCW
6 SCD - HDW†, 4xDW, FF

By Kevin Howard (Jarawara) on Friday, July 25, 2014 - 01:41 pm: Edit

"If the cost represents infrastructure management, then I think variable shipyard replacement costs does not make sense."

I disagree. If Washington DC were to be captured and the Federal government had to move to Philly, there would be an extensive move and set-up cost in terms of equipment (moved and/or lost), manpower, redirection of communication, and so on. The cost would be enormous.

If my house burned down and I had to rent an apartment while switching my address to a P.O. box.... well, that'll be devastating, but it just won't cost as much as replacing Washington DC.

Variable costs by size of the capital make complete sense, and not just by the size of the shipyard. It remains unproven, however, if it's really needed in the game or not.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Wednesday, April 12, 2017 - 03:27 pm: Edit

Under the dial-a-shipyard plan you could "remove" a FF build before Y178 and the associated cost but not lose any production capacity as you can build a FF from your schedule at a starbase under (431.5). In this case production is permanently moved to a given number of starbases to match the difference. In Y178+ the number of DWs is limited to your replacement shipyard capacity of DWs. Although starbases could produce them closer to the front, if money is available to build them.

The trade off is that a given turn's production could increase the number of FF hulls produced. These hulls would be lost unless you had a number of starbases equal to the number of FF hulls gained in the schedule to take up the slack.

Starbase FF and DW production retains the restrictions on variants that may be produced there. Although under the current rules a standard FF or DW could be built then converted to a carrier there using part of the starbase's conversion capacity.

Existing MSYs (450.1) continue to add to a given turn's production or conversions as they do now. If a given empire has not build all of their allowed MSYs, then they can build them to their limit within the limits of the MSY's rules (450.0) themselves, e.g. location.

By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Thursday, June 29, 2017 - 07:13 am: Edit

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Quote:

Here's a thought for balance on this. The replacement cost is the equivalent of higher construction cost of 1 turn's production in the year that the capital is lost.

E.G. Kzinti capital is lost in Y174.
AO construction schedule is
Y174F-Y180F: [CV+MEC+DWE], BC, NCA, 2xCM,
2xDW, 3xFFK. Total = 24+6+4.5+8+6+10+8+9=75.5
Y174S-Y180S: DN, BC, NCA, 3xCM, 3xDW, 3xFFK. Total = 16+8+6+15+12+9=66

The Fall total includes 12 EPs for the fighters of CV.

This is 14.5 EPs less than the 90 EPs (15*6) of (511.32).

The Klingons are 109.5 EPs for Y172.

Edit:

Builds are base hulls listed in the schedule. No substitutions or downgrades.

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By Thomas Mathews (Turtle) on Monday, May 03, 2021 - 05:58 pm: Edit

A quick note from the Empires of the Dead game between Bill Steele and myself. I paid 80.5 EPs to replace the Hydran shipyard using the above approach. Unfortunately, I don't have any data available for near term effects of said cost vs the 90 EPs under the current replacement rules. Data would suggest the change would be minimal.