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	Archive through November 01, 2004	25		11/01 09:20am
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DS, just a little feedback on Marc's ideas:

(Now, of course, I do appreciate all the work everyone is putting into this, and I don't want to sound the naysayer here, these are just my observations in the light of my (limited) F&E experience.)

I dislike the idea of giving specific races bonuses against other specific races. After all, in F&E, Klingon ships are drowning in ADDs, which give them a great defense against the Kzinti ships, but basically do nothing to Federation cruisers. There is no game advantage to that. Hellbore-ESG interaction doesn't get a special rule, and so on and so forth. It's just assumed into the backdrop, and if, in a free campaign, Lyrans go cloak-hunting with ESGs, or Gorn ships have to deal with the Kzinti drone wave, we just sort of assume the petty details all work out. Hence, special race-interaction rules really shouldn't exist unless they're backed by overwhelming support from the SSDs, and even then I'm leery of it.

Regarding your torp problem: Drones go from next to useless (speed-12) to useful (speed-20), and the Kzinti ships reliant on them are considered no better or worse than anyone else's equivalent ships, with no change when that enhancement comes in. They get a bonus when the drones upgrade to good (speed-30), but only on drone bombardment. Interestingly, the F&E ammo cost remains constant, even though the SFB ammo cost goes through the roof by comparison. If anyone in F&E deserves a special BIR bonus, it's the Hydrans, and the nod towards their awesome weaponry is that their ships have better base stats. That's probably the way to go, here.

As for ammunition races, we have plenty of Kzinti ships that run out of drones in a few rounds of heavy fighting early (heck, even late) in the war, but there are no special rules there. If absolutely necessary for game balance, you could charge 0.1EP per ship after the third battle round, and assume that they shuffle ammunition around the fleet in between rounds so that you don't have to track individual ships. I'd reccomend against that, as you'll end up with a race that can't stick it out over starbases, and that'll seriously cripple them in the long run. Alternatively, you'll need a very large amount of "attack factor shocked for the duration of battle" counters. The only thing is that you should realistically be able to shuffle these around like fighters, between rounds, and one ship with cargo boxes should be able to resupply the fleet (hold several, buy them off at 0.N EP each, whatever), so I don't know how relevant this should really be. We don't track Kzinti drone costs unless the ship is doing bombardment, and take a good look at how a Kzinti CV does damage in FY168 ... It's a question of game balance at the end of the day. Just give some drone bombardment ability, and you're in business. (it would be funny to see little frigates with a 2 in angle brackets, for instance.)

I really dislike the idea that provinces are 5 hexes for one race and 7 hexes for another race. That sounds like a record-keeping nightmare, and you'd need two boards. Instead, just give them less homeworlds and planets, and you'll get a cash-starved race. Another way to show a weak economy is to have them always start campaigns with N exhaustion turns "in the bank".

Random movement and supply is just wrong. Simply use political restraints on their actions. The Federation is a peace-loving race, yet it can declare war on someone if it wants to. The rules are set up so that it shouldn't have to, so that people declare war on them.

Do not add d10s to the game. Period. There's nothing wrong with a flat 10%, it's easy to calculate and the variance isn't worth another die roll. Every die roll just slows down the combat. At 10%, you're only getting a couple points anyway ... 2-4 most of the time, more if they assault a hardpoint. Variance on that just isn't very exciting. Assume the captains are using their ship's abilities at useful times, and that it all works out in the wash.

As for self-repairing ships, just cut the repair costs of the ships by 1EP, or by half, or something of the sort. Making it cheap is good. Making it free is a mistake.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 12:31 pm: Edit

the reason we assume that in a free campaign the petty details (i.e. gorn vs kzinti) work out is that we assume that in such a campaign the ship designers would adapt (more P-3's on the gorn for example) but the changes are lot large enough to change the compot numbers as shown in F&E

if you are going to charge kzinti ships for their drones, then you need to make the ships cheaper to start with

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Friday, November 05, 2004 - 12:36 pm: Edit

We shouldn't really have to worry about the Drex's ammo.

The have unlimit std loads, just limited numbers of Enveloping+Implosive (??, there was 2 versions of special loads I remember, not the standard 6-pt shots)

It's like worrying about TMs for the Maesron (drones), don't worry, it gets their if they are in supply.

By John Hall (Fedf111fan) on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 01:55 am: Edit

you guys might want to check out this section
from the starfleet warlord play-by-mail section
that deals with the omega sector.
http://www.agentsofgaming.com/omegasl.zip
this is an excel spreadsheet that has info on all
of the ships plus a lot of new ones.

hope this helps
John Hall

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Sunday, November 07, 2004 - 04:11 pm: Edit

re: Year for major scenario.

I'd say the first major scenario for this would be around Y145 (Omega1)

This has everyone fighting over the disentigrating Maesron Empire (they are having a civil war), and creates a 3-way battle over their carcass. Thus allowing 4-5 players (FRA could be involved, or 2 people playing the Maesron).

Other scenarios could just be 1-2 front wars with the Maesron and their neighbors.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Monday, November 08, 2004 - 04:11 am: Edit

John

Those files are good. Pity that there are no descriptions telling you what all the headers mean. Just a little more info would make them really useful.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, May 31, 2009 - 03:31 pm: Edit

Well, it's been a while...


Looking back, I'm wondering if it might not be an idea to start off with the Superpower Wars of the Fourth Cycle as the first campaign to try and hammer out.


This would include the Probr-Trobrin war of Y164-Y179, which interlocked with the Koligahr-Vari war of Y165-Y177, along with others.

In the midst of this would be the Maesron 'new' Alliance (minus the Vulpa) - who since Y162 had Republic of Aurora ships assisting in patrolling Alliance space as a show of support.


Indeed, the era is a key one for the Aurorans, as the arrival of Kraknora and PX 123 turns the Republic into the Federal Republic. Also, the Klingon ships and weapons that arrived with Kraknora lead to disruptor-armed hybrid-hull destroyers, and the arrival of a Lyran ship in Y173 results in the operation of ESG technology on frigate and destroyer escorts.

(There's no word yet on what, if any, legacy PX 123 left, though.)


And just in time, too, as the FRA assist the Alliance in an effort to shut down the first attempt by the Vulpa to emerge as a separate power post-Collapse (something they'd try again in the Second Great War, and get right - third time's a charm! - as the Vulpa Confederacy in the Seventh Cycle).


In scenario terms, one could set up play for the 'four powers' who fight the Superpower Wars most directly (Trobrin, Vari, Probr and Koligahr) and include rules for the Maesrons, FRA and Vulpa, showing the troubles faced by those caught in the midst of the wider conflict.


Plus, certain historical events could be represented through special rules and in-game triggers - for example, the Vari would lose EPs from the Buffer hexes, given the renewed Hiver-Alunda war there, while the Trobrin would be obliged to re-deploy certain forces in Y176 in the face of Paravian activity.

Perhaps the most prominent such event - the Loriyill intervention at the Singer homeworld in Y174 - could be fought out, if one wished to add a Loriyill player. However, short of that, it may be sufficient to oblige the Koligahr player to lose EPs from Singer space once the Loriyill move in (since the war against the Loriyill took place after the Koligahr pulled out of the Superpower Wars anyway).


Picking the Superpower Wars allows for a good range of ships and empires (not least those of the FRA) without heading too far into wars which would need the first war cruisers to be built (seen at the end of the Second Great War) - let alone the X-ships and PFs of the Sixth and Seventh Cycles.

Plus, it keeps the conflict small enough to handle, yet big enough to be worthwhile.


Sound like a good idea?

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Saturday, April 09, 2011 - 09:30 pm: Edit

One thing that I started to idly wonder about when flicking through CL40; should any subset of the supercomputer rules in (5CC) be worth sieveing through in order to represent Drex CPUs in F&E?

Not that there'd be any pressing need for such a conversion any time soon, of course; but it could be an interesting thought exercise, at least.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Sunday, April 10, 2011 - 10:00 pm: Edit

No, No, Oh Please No!

We would need to keep it KISS.

Just incorporate the Drex CPU bonus (if there is one!) into their basic AF's.

That's my opinion.

By Richard B. Eitzen (Rbeitzen) on Monday, April 11, 2011 - 12:25 am: Edit

I would prefer more rule than just increasing their factors.

F&E for Omega is not going to be simple no matter what you do.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:23 am: Edit

So here is an idea I have had kicking around in my head for a while--graft the Omega sector onto the basic rules for F+E, but as, essentially, a version of a 4X (Explore, Expand, Exploit, Exterminate) game from the get go. Given the background of the Omega sector, all the empires grew and shrank and expanded and collapsed, and everything was very fluid. Using that as the starting point for an F+E game that exists purely as a "start with a capital hex that generates some money, and go from there" seems like it would be pretty fun.

-Have a map of the Omega sector that has no national borders; just various "capital" hexes where players would start out, provinces, and planet hexes. The historical Omega "terrain" areas would still be there (The Void, Ryn Nebula, Galactic Rim, possibly the Iridani Cluster), but build the map so that planets (i.e. resources) are reasonably evenly distributed.

-Each empire starts out pretty much the same--all capital hexes generate the same amount of money and have the same stuff in them (something like a major planet with 8xPDU and a SB and a minor planet with 2xPDU) and the same build schedule (which might be, like, "you can build any ship you can afford to build", or might be a specific kind of build schedule). They start building ships, exploring, capturing provinces and planets, and continuing to grow.

-To give the game a little more flavor, each of the Omega empires would have a (reasonably balanced) special power or dynamic--the Alunda would be able to repair their ships extra cheaply; the Hivers would have little, cheap ships with hybrid fighters on them to bring them up to speed with everyone else (a Hiver CA could be, like, a 6 [2]/3 that builds like a DW for 4 plus fighters to make up for them getting directed so easily); the Kolighar would have extra defense against (or automatically kill some) attrition units; the Branthodon have trouble building large ships but make small ships quickly and cheaply; etc.

Such a game could hold any number of players (you set up the map with any number of "capital" hexes that can be starting spots for a given empire or just an extra major planet if not in play).

I'm not quite sure how the "5 people playing F+E all at once" turn dynamic would work out (in terms of who moves when and how that would impact things like reserve fleets), but I'm sure it is something that could get figured out. And I'm pretty sure that there is a home-brewed version of the game like this that folks have played (using regular empires) at Origins or whatever. But I think the basic background of Omega is perfectly suited for this sort of game, and the flavor of the various empires could make it fun and interesting.

By Jason E. Schaff (Jschaff297061) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:38 am: Edit

Peter:

Are you familiar with the "Early Beginnings" F&E variant developed by Jimi Laform, Tim Losberg, and others? Very much like what you are describing, but with Alpha-sector races and a generic map that needs to be explored.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:44 am: Edit

Yes--I mentioned it in the last paragraph (although not by name) :-)

I've never played it, but have seen it in action some. I'd think that such a game would certainly work, but some things would need to certainly get tweaked to balance things out--i.e. empires with maulers are significantly advantaged over empires without (which would require deleting maulers. Or giving everyone maulers). The Romulans are just better than everyone else, as they get cloaking devices on all their ships for free (which is presumably balanced out in the basic game by the general dynamic--although I don't know that it actually is), meaning that they lose vastly fewer province garrison ships than everyone else, etc. Like, I'm sure it could work, but would take a lot of re-jiggering of things.

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 10:30 am: Edit

To follow on from Peter's recent postings elsewhere, I have been thinking more about how the Omega hex map might one day be presented in an F&E context, not least due to my efforts at gathering what data exists for the various "lost futures" factions noted in Bruce Graw's CL36 article.


One long-standing issue I have had is just how much space the hex map covers, or ought to cover, on the SFU galaxy map. Since the Omega hex maps are each 64 by 31 hexes in size (as opposed to the 61 by 19 hex size of the current Federation and Empire map), I would argue that the shaded area of the Omega Octant should extend up to the edge of the Storm Zone in one direction, and about mid-way across the Phi Sector in another (which would have the effect of halving the "off-map" Zosman area, and of curtailing coreward "off-map" expansion as noted below).


Another issue stems from the five currently-published Omega maps themselves. It seems that the shifting borders shown on that map are a tad untidy, in the sense that they don't necessarily line up with the published timeline in some cases (not least in terms of accounting for certain species' home worlds).

While doing a "standard" set of provinces may be difficult, at least one would need to establish where the various major and minor planets would be - to include those which are erased from the map for one reason or another during the course of historical events. (Fortunately, handling those planets which are "added" to the map is made easier by there bring a "home" hex for the FRA.)

It may be that, in the long run, one (or more) of the current maps may need to be treated as rough approximations, with the "correct" locations and borders being determined if or when the time comes to work things out properly here.


When it comes to "off-map" areas, I would personally prefer there to be only two of those - one running along the eastern edge of the map to represent Zosman-occupied space, and another in the Void in order to account for the Souldra Black Sun. (This would tie in to my proposed revision to the shaded Omega area on the galaxy map, as any further coreward expansion would then be forestalled by the Omega hex map brushing against the nearest edge of the Storm Zone.)

In my view, this would suit the more unstable nature of Omega conflicts, in that most empires would have to stand or fall based on what they can claim (or hold) on the Omega hex map proper.


And as for the Iridani, it seems that the distance currently shown between the Cluster and the nearest edge of the Galactic Rim is an abstraction, since the Iridani OR-section has the distance as "about the same as the distance from the Drex home world to the Probr capital".

So it could be that either the Cluster is on the same plane as the galactic disc and is simply further way from the Galactic Rim in that broad direction. Or it could be that the Cluster is where it is shown to be along the X- and Y-axes, but makes up the distance by being further "above" or "below" the Z-axis.

(Being "below" the galactic plane would make it easier for the Iridani to send speculative long-range Quests to the LMC, since there would be a clear path between them without the Galactic disc getting in the way. That might also help explain why the Andromedans found the Cluster to be such a tempting target.)


Of course, it may be a long time, if ever, before any of this is given the kind of oxygen it deserves - and I might still argue that, of any known non-Alpha setting, it may be more practical to do the LMC first. But there's certainly bee no shortage of new and intriguing options when it comes to this region of the galaxy... even if it may need some tidying up before it can be delved into in more detail at a strategic level.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 09:32 pm: Edit

Peter and Gary,

I created the Omega maps (http://www.starfleetgames.com/historicaldownloads.shtml)

If there are changes that you guys would like to make let me know and I can modify them and send them back out.

I tried to use all the maps once to determine the "center" of each empire. Some of the empires it worked out very easily while other had no "core."

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Sunday, April 05, 2015 - 10:39 pm: Edit

I don't think it would be a good idea to try and suggest any changes to the Omega hex maps, or to propose any specific locations for various species' home planets, until or unless ADB is in a position to put an official detailed hex map together.

Similarly, though there is a map which had been worked up as a part of Ken Burnside's pre-production LMC material, some of the details on that map (particularly in how it handled Chomak space) were definitively nixed as not being SFU-compliant. But even though there are less controversial proposed details on that map (one might hope), nothing from that map, or from any map other than the basic one published in Module C5, can be considered official until, or unless, ADB makes it so.

Actually, one thing I'm really hoping to see in a future Triangulum module (should one ever be printed) is a proper planet-and-province map of M33, akin to the Paravian and Carnivon maps presented in Module C6. I'd like there to be at least one non-Alpha setting in which we can say for certain where the various faction capitals can be found...

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Tuesday, April 07, 2015 - 05:57 pm: Edit

A) Ken--those are cool maps!

B) That being said, the thing I'd most like to see (as noted above) is just using the Omega sector as a non-hostorical F+E game, designed from the get go to be a game of just "Explore, get some provinces, get some money, make more ships, explore more, get more provinces, etc." As such, there isn't really a need (for my money) to make national borders or anything for the version of the game I'd like to see. Just "capital hexes" (which are just starting points) and provinces that have occasional planets in them to capture. Presumably, such a map would be reasonable balanced, in design, such that wherever you started on the map, you'd have pretty much equal access to space. The only variables would be the specifics of the empire you took (see above; something like the Alunda being able to fix ships cheaply and the Hivers having only small ships but they all have fighters on them, etc.)

By Gary Carney (Nerroth) on Wednesday, April 08, 2015 - 04:41 pm: Edit

For what it's worth, I would prefer to initially focus on a particular historical campaign with a smaller sub-set of historical Omega factions, and then try to build outward (or forward in time) from there.

One example could be Operation Hammer Blow of Y92-Y95, with the Mæsrons' decisive campaign aimed at ending the First Great War in their favour. Another could be the Mæsron Collapse in the Third Cycle, with a rapidly-disintegrating Alliance/Empire torn apart through internal strife and external invasion. A third option could be the Superpower Wars of the Fourth Cycle, with the first Vulpa insurgency running effectively in parallel to the larger-scale clashes between the empires ringing what remained of Mæsron space.

Of those three, Hammer Blow might be the easiest to play out, since it has the fewest number of empires and two clear sides to face off against one another. The multi-sided mess which the Civil War and Collapse devolved into would allow the Probr and FRA to join the fray, but might be dependent on there being viable multiplayer rules done up for F&E at some point. The Superpower Wars might provide the best middle ground, and have newer technology items thrown in to boot - though more data may be needed on the Vulpa insurgents in order to make this era work.


Even there, you'd have scope to show some of the distinct quirks of the participating empires.

The Mæsrons would likely have multiple capital hexes (one each for the Tazol, Wallimi, and Vulpa, plus the potential for a fourth if the proposed "Mæsra Prime" concept were ever picked up on). Unlike the Federation and ISC, the Alliance never quite consolidated its navy into a single entity, which could pose some interesting challenges and opportunities. Indeed, one option could be to allow up to three Mæsron players (one for each of the three major species), though such a setup would be a per-requisite for campaigns set during the Civil War and Collapse.

The Vari would go even further off the deep end, since each cell had its own shipyard, and each was independent of the others prior to the Vriss rise to dominance during the Seventh Cycle. So there would be no "primary shipyard" to work with, though one could imagine not every cell' yard output would be available (since there would be a need to keep watch on other fronts).

The Koligahr may be easier in terms of working from a primary shipyard at their home world, but perhaps there could be some interesting quirks to consider due to their unique construction methods. A Superpower Wars-era Solidarity setup might have to abstract out those forces committed to the Singer/Loriyill campaign, at least as an interim measure.

The big question for the Trobrin is just how many planets exist across Imperial space on which they can establish "open-air" colonies, and what range of non-native environments the silicate Trobrin species can endure. It doesn't seem like they are intended to be as badly off in that regard as the Tholians, but it remains to be seen whether their unique biology would have an impact on their running a star-faring civilization.

If one were to feature the Probr in a Mæsron Collapse or Superpower Wars scenario, they'd have their own way of doing things to consider, based on the erector-set mentality used for their starship construction. Perhaps a Probr player might have a certain number of hulls and wing pairs they can build each year, with which they'd have to work out exactly which classes of ships (and in what numbers) they'd be able to build, repair, convert, and/or upgrade each turn?

Then you'd have the FRA, who would have a role to play by themselves (by ending off the Trobrin in Y149) and alongside the New Alliance (when intervening in the Mæsron Civil War, and later sending forces to help patrol Mæsron space in exchange for protection against Superpower incursions).

And while the Vulpa were more willing to see themselves as "Mæsron" (albeit on their terms) prior to the Civil War, the insurgents of the post-Collapse era seem more intent on going it alone - as made manifest through the rise of the Vulpa Confederacy in the Seventh Cycle. The problem here is that one would need to know more about what the Vulpa insurgent forces look like in SFB terms before they could be properly accounted for in F&E.


In the long run, should these "central" belligerents prove viable, one could then shift one's focus to other regional conflicts (Hiver/Alunda/Branthodon, Drex/Ymatrian/Worb, etc.) while building up to larger-scale conflicts later in the timeline - not least the Andromedan and Souldra invasions of the Sixth Cycle.

By Ken Kazinski (Kjkazinski) on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 10:37 pm: Edit

Thanks Peter. I created a hex overlay for each of the maps and worked from there. I think I have most of the map right.

By Peter Bakija (Bakija) on Thursday, April 09, 2015 - 10:47 pm: Edit

Gary wrote:
>>For what it's worth, I would prefer to initially focus on a particular historical campaign with a smaller sub-set of historical Omega factions, and then try to build outward (or forward in time) from there.>>

That is certainly a way to go. But I don't know that there would be enough interest in a historical Omega strategic game to really justify such a venture. It seems like if Omega was used as the basis for a free flowing 4X kinda game, at least that would have an interesting hook. But that is just me, I'd imagine.