This is a fundamental change to the game system, making economics, movement and combat all simultaneous.

Step 1 Economic: all active powers perform production and repair.

Step 2 Raids: each side will designate 1 raid at a time, alternating until all raiders have been placed. After which resolve the raids as usual.

Step 3 Movement: all active powers will move.

Operational movement: Beginning with the coalition each side (coalition/alliance) will designate 1 command ship, that ship and a number of other ships up to twice its command rating will begin movement. Neither fighters nor PF’s count in the total.

After the moving stack has completed movement play passes to the other side.

A side may choose to move as few as one ship, however once a side passes it may not engage in any more operational movement.

Reaction movement: Any ship that has not moved may use reaction movement. A ship or group of ships which use reaction movement may not use operational movement later in that turn. A side which used reaction movement may declare that move as an operational move on its next phase to move without passing

Reserve Movement: After all operational movement is complete Reserves may move as normal, except that the side which moved last must move all of its reserves first.

Combat is conducted as normal, if a planet, base or other fixed location is involved the side with the fixed position is considered the defender, in open space battles the side with the larger force is considered the attacker, measured in SE, use total compot as a tie breaker or the players may simply agree with each other which side is “attacking”, as a last resort a coin can decide.

Strategic Movement: Ships that have not moved may use strategic movement as normal, but it is done during the operational movement phase.

Step 4 Retrograde Movement: After combat all ships normally eligible to perform retrograde may do so.

Step 5 Designate reserves as normal, conduct field repairs etc.

+++++++++++++++++++++
Anyone thought of this before?

The most difficult part here is tracking which ships are eligible to form reserves. Can a ship which is attacked but does not actually move become part of a reserve fleet?

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 06:59 pm: Edit

we've thought about it and th biggest problem is going to be that the coalition has such a shipcount superiority that the alliance will have absolutly zero chance of breaking through to the coalition rear areas so there will need to be some very significant changes in the fleets

by the way if making a change of this magnatude I would change to phased movement as well.

6 segments

normal ships move one hex per segment, slow units move on even segments, fast units move twice on segment 6

reserve and retrograde movement takes place during the normal movement phase, these ships can move up to their entire movement allocation in a single segment, but when retrograding they stop at the base and cannot move until next turn

strategic movement would allow a ship to move up to 18 hexes per segment, but must end each segment at a base.

combat would also take place during the movement segments, up to 4 rounds of combat can take place each segment, and if that does not resolve the hex and nobody chooses to retreat you continue the movement segment (with pinning) and reinforcements could arrive)

unfortunantly I expect that such a drastic change will only take place as part of a computer version (and then you can add in hidden movement as well) and it suffers from the same problems as your proposal so there would need to be some very significant changes to the fleets to make either proposal work

By Tony L Thomas (Scoutdad) on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 07:14 pm: Edit

Edward, Our group has had a set of simultaneous movement rules for F&E for a while now. One of our players, Scott Hofner made the original proposal and has been constantly tweaking the results and improving playability. He eventually hopes to submit them to SVC; so while I'd love to tell you more about it, but he should be the one to do that...

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 09:26 pm: Edit

I put something like this together once for multi-player/Free campaign.

There were two real difference from what Edward had:

Operational movement and Reaction movement really just melt into one phase.

During Op/React movement, you either had to move a stack -OR- place a reserve marker. If you didn't do either of these, you passed and were done moving. After all Op/React was over, the stacks with the Reserve markers were moved.

While I think this sort of movement would make a multi-player/Free campaign work better, it would almost certainly completely destroy game balance in the existing game, as it has been balanced for I-move/you-move type play.

By Scott Hofner (Sshofner) on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 06:38 pm: Edit

Proposal for Changing F&E to a Simultaneous Movement System

Listed below is the basic proposal BG Murfreesboro sent to SVC. Our intention was not to change how the “official” game is played but offer an alternative way to enjoy the game. Ultimately, the discussions with SVC broke down due to the disagreement over CEDS. We believed that it was more logical to remove almost all of CEDS as you would effectively have back to back retrograde phases. The simplest/best course would be just to combine regular retrograde with CEDS retrograde and repair. SVC (though he may have agreed with that opinion) was adamant that there was to be ZERO changes to the retrograde rules. So we agreed to disagree and the proposal died there. Also, it talks about a movement sheet. That is nothing more then a simple spread sheet that had all of a races fleet names and extra spaces for single ships.

The main change is to operational movement. Both sides’ (and all in a free campaign) movement is simultaneous. All forms of movement would still conducted. Operational movement would be done on an impulse system. Reaction movement would be similar, but overhauled to fit into the operational movement system. Reserve, Retrograde, and Strategic movement would be conducted in the original manner.

Operational movement is to be broken down into six impulses. Each race has a movement sheet for each turn. See attached spreadsheet labeled Lyran Movement Sheet. The races’ fleet names are already filled in, speeding up the process. Any ships not in a fleet are recorded individually or in groups. The starting hexes are noted. It is not necessary to record the number and type of ships in a fleet as they are still kept in their respective fleet boxes. Then each player records their first impulse of movement (or an R if using reaction, see below) and then reveal to the opposing side when both sides have record all movement for the first impulse. The units are then moved on the map. Reaction may occur at this time. After reaction movement is conducted, this process is repeated five more times.

Ships that have an allowance of six hexes per turn may move one hex each impulse. Ships that have an allowance of less than six hexes per turn may move one hex each impulse up to the maximum number of hexes allowed. Ships that may move more than six hexes per turn (currently fast or X ships) may move one hex per impulse but may also choose a single impulse to move two hexes.

If a ship is eligible to move, it may be set for reaction movement. Instead of recording a destination hex in that ship(s) corresponding destination box, record an “R”. After each impulse’s operational movement has been completed and reactions are conduct, using existing rules for range and target eligibility. If there is not an eligible target hex then the ships marked for reaction are not allowed to move that impulse. After both sides’ units have been moved in an impulse, ship(s) set as reactionary secretly record their movements in the same manner of operational movement. Simply write the target hex next to the “R” on the movement sheet. Both sides reveal their reaction movement at the same time and then execute it on the map. The range at which a ship without scout capabilities can react is one hex. It may react to movement two hexes away with scout capabilities. The ship(s) only move one hex though. However, if the scout moves with the reacting ship, it would not lose its outer reaction hex as it currently does. A ship(s) could conceivably be on reaction movement for six impulses and react to six different eligible targets. Unlike current reaction rules, the reacting ship(s) only move one hex per impulse though (possible exception for fast ships).

During reserve movement, eligible reserve fleets would have their destination hex recorded secretly after all operational and reaction movement. Then reserve movement would be revealed and conducted. The only difference is that all sides conduct it at the same time. As of right now, opposing reserve fleets would not have any interaction with each other for simplicity. So as long as a fleet had a valid path at the beginning of reserve movement, it would always make it to its destination hex. That may be changed to increase realism if it does not over-complicate things.

Strategic and Retrograde movement procedures are the same, except done by all sides and simultaneous using the same procedures as in the Reserve Movement, i.e. only target hex is recorded. CEDS repair and retrograde is eliminated completely.

The last major change is to determining the order of the battles and who represents the attacker/defender in those battles. Strategic initiative plays a large role in being able to set the pace of an attack. The following rules help to facilitate that. Based on a historic schedule, sides alternate on determining the order in which battles are fought and who is the defender/attacker in those battles. See the table bellow. The side with the initiative, for that turn, gets to choose the first battle and who is the defender/attacker. After the first hex is resolved, then the opposing side selects the second battle hex to be resolved and who is the defender/attacker in that hex. The order continues to alternate between opposing sides until all battle hexes are resolved. The initiative for the turn can be modified by the application of a race’s Strategic Preparation Points (SPP). At the beginning of the turn, just prior to the commencement of the first movement impulse, each side secretly records how many SPP’s are to be used for that turn. The allocation of SPP’s used is not revealed until after Operational and Reaction movement is complete for the turn. A race is not obligated to use any SPP’s. The opposing sides compare the SPP’s spent. The side that spent the most has the opposing sides total subtracted from theirs. This generates a positive modifier to the initiative in their favor. If both sides allocate the same number of points, then there is no change to the initiative for the turn. An example: On turn two, the Coalition has the initiative per the schedule. The Coalition allocates one SPP. The Kzinti player spends three SPP’s. The Kzinti changes the initiative by two (3-1=2). The initiative would then swing to the Alliance. The first positive modifier on turn two for the Alliance would move the initiative to static warfare and the second positive modifier gives the Alliance the initiative for turn two. For every positive modifier past obtaining the initiative, that side gets to choose an additional battle before the opposing side has a chance to select their first battle. In the above example, if the roles had been reversed and the Coalition spent three SPP’s and the Alliance spent only one SPP, then the Coalition would have a positive modifier of two and be able to determine the order in which the first three battle hexes are resolved. This is a rate of one battle hex per positive modifier to the initiative. The max possible positive modifier is three. Each race receives two SPP’s per turn while at war (not limited) and not under economic exhaustion. The Klingon and the Federation receive three. Races that are at war, but under economic exhaustion, only receive one SPP per turn. The Klingon’s and the Federation receive two points while under the same conditions. As Strategic Preparation Points represent planning and preparations made for the start or continuation of an offensive/defensive initiative, any race may purchase additional SPP’s. Additional SPP’s can be bought at a rate of 5 EPs per point. Points are accumulative and are never required to be allocated on any one turn. The SPP’s allocated per turn are accumulative per side, i.e. if the Federation, Kzinti’s, and Hydran’s all allocate the use of one point each on turn seven, then the Alliance total for the turn is three SPP’s used. On turns of Static Warfare, the initiative is determined by each side rolling a single die. High die wins the initiative and that side gets to determine the first hex to be fought. The selection alternates normally from that point. Certain races may start with a pool of SPP’s as this represents prior planning for a major offensive.
Table for Base Initiative Determination-
Turn 1 and 2: Coalition
Turn 3: Alliance
Turns 4 through 11: Coalition
Turn 12: Alliance
Turns 13 and 14: Coalition
Turns 15 through 25: Static Warfare
Turns 26 through 31: Alliance
Turns 32 through 34: Static Warfare

The rules as a whole are not modified in an overwhelming avalanche of change, but there is a huge impact on tactics. Listed below is an incomplete list of items the proposed rules change would have a noticeable impact on:
• Deep penetrations will be much harder. It will no longer be easy to plan out the pinning of an opposing fleet then move past it to strike targets deep in the rear and have the order of battles and retreats completely preplanned there by guaranteeing secured retrograde paths.
• Due to the dynamic nature of the movement, it will no longer be a viable option to strip all of the ships from one area, use them in an attack, and then retrograde them back to defend the original area. The opposing side will be moving at the same time and be able to exploit gaps in fleet deployments.
• Carrier groups will lose some of their effectiveness. Under current rules, carrier groups get two retrogrades and two repair cycles for every one turn. This is no longer the case.
• The number of battles will be, probably, slightly less. Since there is only one movement cycle, the Alliance will be hampered more early on due to being on the defense. This will be off set by the Coalition fleets needing to be more evenly deployed along a front to prevent a gap from being exploited.
• As mentioned above, since deep penetrations will not be as viable of a tactic, molasses style attacks may also increase, bringing the number of battles up closer to the current rule’s level. This will also help the Alliance as they will be able to defend the outlying BATS more during the early turns.
• As there is only one of each phase per turn, as opposed to two, even with the extra writing/recording necessary, the game should move quicker.
• No longer will be possible to anally plan out all attacks. Attack plans will have to be much more fluid. Movements will be constantly interacting making the game much more exciting and involving for all active players.


Battle Group Murfreesboro

By David Lang (Dlang) on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 09:23 pm: Edit

Scott, H

overall it sounds pretty good

the one thing that seems overly complicated is the strategic inititive section. given that you will be alternating the selection after the first couple of battles anyway it seems like a lot of hassle for very little gain.

I really like your hidden simultanious movement system

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 02:36 am: Edit

Scott

I don't think there would be any exploiting of gaps going on. For instance, the Zin forces in the early turns will still be mostly around the SBs, and it will take a little time to move out to attack coalition bases - plenty of time for the coalition to react.

But really, this will stuff the Alliance brutally and make pin count everything. The only way the alliance can have any counterplay at all is to use retrograde judiciously to generate local concentrations of ships to strike from another direction. The coalition now has little reason to retrograde - alliance movement will be like moving though mud now the coalition can hunt down and chase any alliance fleets.
Furthermore, any alliance fleet now being stupid enough to try counteroffensives can't be defending the bases, which will get picked off much easier if the alliance use those tactics. Alliance fleets will find it very hard to redeploy except during the retrograde phase, and it will be easier for the coalition to cut retrograde - indeed, I can see that as the main function of reserve fleets now - ensuring retrograde.
I mean, suppose it was the beginning of opmove turn 3, and you wanted to move a Zin fleet (or elements of it) from the Barony to the Duke's SB? It wouldn't have a hope at all of actually getting there, and would probably be uselessly intercepted around 1503 - an open space battle being the worst of all.

Did you actually play this? I really can't see it working at all, despite the apparent elegance. It might help the alliance turn 1 or 2, because as you imply, the rear coalition fleets can no longer pin out alliance fleets to enable forward fleets to do deep strikes. But once the caolition has its fleet in alliance space, it's big, big, trouble for the alliance. If anything, coalition deep strikes then get easier.

HOWEVER.

1) If you play this system such that short battles can be generated after every movement pulse...
(max ?4 rounds, if neither side retreats, then simply move as normal next pulse or fight again)
and
2) you say that fleets cannot pin each other, (with maybe some limited exceptions), it could get interesting.

By David Slatter (Davidas) on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 03:00 am: Edit

Edward

I view your proposal as more workable than scott's, but you need to work on several things.

1) What's to stop the coalition (or any side with a pincount advantage) moving ships one at a time, forcing the alliance to move something? That way, the alliance will either be all moved, or will have resigned itself to just reaction movement before the coalition has moved even half its forces.
In effect, each turn will be like a coalition turn, and the alliance will never get its strikeback. If the alliance does foolishly try a strike, the caolition will still have at least 50% of its fleet remaining to totally hammer the strike, and also to kill the bases that alliance fleet should have been defending.

2) Have you thought about what the reserves will be doing? They will be used offensively much more frequently to try and get a decisive advantage at a location. I would suggest that during reserve moevemnt a side can declare a reserve "defensive", which means it must start in home (not allied) space and can only reserve to battles in home (not allied) space. Defensive reserves move after normal reserves, in the same order between the sides.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 02:17 pm: Edit

DaS

Well I had it so that the side which passed operational movement first would move their reserves last which I hoped would make up somewhat. Also something I had not thought of was who determines what order all of the battles are fought? I think the side that passes first should also get that advantage.

Yes I thought of the reserves and I really didn't have a problem with them being used that way.

By Scott Hofner (Sshofner) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 06:11 am: Edit

David L- The strategic stuff is not very complicated, just poorly explained. It is very important to bridge the gap between the proposed change in the movement rules and the original combat system. It is only important for the first few battles, after that it automatically alternates between sides.

David S- You only focus on the first couple of turns. Between 3 and 7 the Marquis's area will be very important for the Kzin. Everthing that the Klingons use to defend against kzinti incursions from that area, is less they can use over the capitol. After turn 7, the fronts become very long. Also, lets face it the first half of the game the Alliance is on the defense. This system alow them to better defend outlying defenses, even border BATS. That will cost the coalition more in ships and strageic resources then the limited Alliance counter attacks can traditional produce.

By Lawrence Bergen (Lar) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 03:56 pm: Edit

The Murfreesboro Group has done extensive work on this idea. I experienced an awesome discussion where I witnessed Mike, Tony & Scott give a very detailed description during an Origins luncheon and even more during our game this past year. (YET ANOTHER reason to attend the Conference!!)

This medium is no good place for the real details of how this "new" game would work, but to actually hear them in person was very cool indeed. It seems to have many of the details taken into perspective. That was however 2 products ago (and a CLog) so several other wrinkles will need to be looked at I am sure.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water on this it has some very nice upside that could result, if nothing else, a new more advanced version of the game we have come to know and crave.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Tuesday, December 28, 2004 - 04:28 pm: Edit

DaS
One other thing that helps the alliance out is the simultaneous production so they get to put their ships on the board before the coalition begins moving. This helps alot as its a fair amount of ships that the coalition will have to pin when they are attacking, ships that they would not normally have to deal with yet.

By Christopher E. Fant (Cfant) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 11:47 am: Edit

Gahg. I remember back when something like this was suggested for Rise and Fall of the Third Reich. It was a bad idea then, its a really bad idea now.

By Scott Hofner (Sshofner) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 03:04 pm: Edit

Edward R- It's more then just production. It is also when fleets are released. For all of the Alliance races, minus the Hydrans, there would be more existing ships moving then before. For instance, the Kzinti's would be able to move the Home, Count's, and Duke's fleet starting on turn one. This would allow the Home fleet to come in play during the Lyran attack on turn one. Yes the Alliance would have a harder time doing the limited counter attacks that they are capable of now, but they would be able to mount a much stronger defense of thier outter fixed defenses.

By Chuck Strong (Raider) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 03:39 pm: Edit

Since this be an alternate rules set, I would not mind seeing developed as it would not have an effect on how the current, standard game is played.

By Edward Reece (Edfactor) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 06:26 pm: Edit

Thats true about the fleet release status, you might need to not release the Kzinti homefleet until turn 2 otherwise the Lyrans are not going to be able to attack at all.

By John Kasper (Jvontr) on Wednesday, December 29, 2004 - 11:27 pm: Edit

>>> It was a bad idea then, its a really bad idea now.

I'd agree for a two side game. Try playing a free campaign F&E with 5 or 6 players. The current move system really breaks down.

By Scott Hofner (Sshofner) on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 06:03 am: Edit

Edward R- I would disagree with that. The Hydran attack is not going to be as powerful for the same reasons. And ultimately the slow down in the Coalition attack will be offset by the Alliance's reduced ability for counter attacks in the first 15 turns or so.