Doesn't work, David. You have to haul the fuel around and the cost of fuel burned to power replicators (and the cost of fuel to haul that fuel around) is more than zero.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 02:54 pm: Edit

Ok, I was thinking that the ships got their power from the antimatter in the engines (close to unlimited duration) and matter scooped from space with the ships being limited in how much power they could pull at any time (power distribution limits and control limits), but not having drastic duration limits

some modes of operation (dash speed, etc) are extremely wasteful and the ships need additional fuel to use them, but some level of normal operations can be sustained indefinantly

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 02:58 pm: Edit

I realized just after posting that last message that ships out of supply are limited to 1/2 speed so while I may be right the balance point may be well below normal operations, oh well

on the other hand the power nessasary to move a ship at warp speed may make the power nessasary to power replicators seem trivial by comparison (you need 500KW-H to replicate that thing, while the ships engines are currently running at 5000GW to move the ship so you are needing me to turn the engines up by 0.001% for an hour? no problem)

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 03:20 pm: Edit

There was an old story (I got it from a WW2 vet) that claimed that German and italian Prisoners of war, while in american custody, bitterly complained about the quality of the food they were given...for some reason they couldnt beleive that the US Army fed its own troops the same rations they were giving the POW's.

(Oddly, I have not heard the same accusation being made by Japanese POW's...)

With the power of the Replicator, one could think up all kinds of "designer" foods tailored to acheive all manner of effects.

(imagine some young ensign integrating a modified laxative formula into the foods produced for the Marines? or aphrodisiacs into the food replicators of the junior female officers?)

Or what about colors? All orange for Reformation day celebration? Red White and Blue for those ships named for american heros? or the national colors of any particular nation, like Yelow and Blue steak for Swedish vesels?

lots of opportunity for role playing interactions.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 03:25 pm: Edit

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lots of opportunity for role playing interactions.

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By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 03:32 pm: Edit

this is also an area where different empires will have different emphisis.

assuming that energy cost isn't significant for ships (but still high enough to prohibit it for bulk manufacturing) I could see klingon ships relying more on replicated food for the same reason that they have smaller berths, it's good enough to get the job done and crew comfort is a lower priority then some other things (like squeesing enough slack out of the system to produce one additional ship)

By Ian Whitchurch (Ian_Whitchurch) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 03:41 pm: Edit

David,

On that theme, I am reminded of a story about a certain naval engagement, somewhere in the north Pacific, back in the dying days of the Cold War.

The PLA navy, the JSF, the RAN, the RN and the USN, meeting in some point in the South China Sea.

To trade.

Vodka, cigarettes, bundy rum, sake, hershey bars ...

Our Heroes in the dinky Free Trader could run into something similar on any of the porous borders of the SFU - and with a civilian ship spotting a rendezvous between, say, a Klingon, a Kzinti and a Fed navy ship, well then they'd need to be cut in the deal as well.

Ian Whitchurch

By David Kass (Dkass) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 04:06 pm: Edit

Loren wrote:

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You aren't going to power a Replicator with solar cells!

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 04:56 pm: Edit

OK, portable...OK even more specific, HAND or VEHICLE portable solar cell collectors.

Actually I could see a hand phaser being enough to get some really important but small item out of a replicator.

BY THE WAY: In the Damage Control Departement there are replicators designed for making parts in emergencies and for temporary replacements. These repairs are temporary (and this fits with D9.0 repairs in SFB). For permanent fixes you need to use manufactured parts from your stores or from a base.

I would add as well (basically new material here): There is a reason that there is different sub-types of replicators. While it is possible to make one big replicators that does everything well whats the point? And while any replicators can be programmed to do anothers job it won't do it as well. Replicator units tend to be specialized. General Units do exsist and are typically those requisitioned by new colonies. These do it all but not as well (Jack of all Replicatoins). Hmm, in fact, slang for these might be Jacko's.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 06:02 pm: Edit

Loren-

your "Jacko's" idea sounds plausible and attractive (from a colony POV). Why not write it up as a "side bar" item and submit it with the article?

Even if there isnt room for it and the full article, it would make a nice feature for a future Captains Log entry.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 06:03 pm: Edit

OK, to end this argument, I'm going to say the following:

Replicator programmers know their limits and do not exceed them.

As a result there is little or no spoilage or waste, and the foodstuff created by standard replicator templates will last as long as regular food ... probably a bit longer, as it starts off being sterile.

The difference is in the details. For example, a specific French menu item might taste like it was cooked by Iron Chef French Sakai at TL13, by a Cordon Bleu graduate chef at TL12, and by Uncle Mannie from Brooklyn at TL10.

Of course, we are talking about someone with Engineer/TL (replicator) 20 and Cooking 20 skills, which is what the professional replicator programmers have (except for that one company that advertises that it's soup recipes were programmed by Julia Child who has 26/26 skills).

An ensign that was programming laxatives into the marines dinner, not having those skill levels, might end up poisoning them all instead.

Loren, got the email. No problem.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 07:58 pm: Edit

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Ok, I was thinking that the ships got their power from the antimatter in the engines (close to unlimited duration) and matter scooped from space with the ships being limited in how much power they could pull at any time (power distribution limits and control limits), but not having drastic duration limits

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By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 08:29 pm: Edit

Gary, did you see mine and SVC's post. That solved the issue entirely.

You post brings it back around to a problem, I think. If replicator food is every bit the same as regular food then that impact comerce. ANd ships have kitchens and people like real food better. I really think that food, like everything else replicated needs to remain consistant with what the article explains. I hope you didn't change that.

I really thing that once everyone reads the article it will all be very clear. The difficult thing is to discuss it without giving away the whole thing.

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 09:09 pm: Edit

One thing people have forgotten is intelectual property.


If I write a programme to cause the replicator to make hamburgers I have the right to charge a fee to everybody who makes that hamburger.
I also have the right to set that fee and I might set that fee to be free or not.


That being said maybe people buy chairs because they don't want to pay the royalties but replicate a beer because the programme has fallen into public domain.

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:11 pm: Edit

MJC, you assume that intellectual property rights are the same in the SFB universe of year 205 (or so) is the same as it is in 2004 AD.

You failed to justify how your hamburger replicator recipe is unique and different from generic hamburgers replicated out of public domain data base.

As loren pointed out Salt is "Sodium Cloride"(sic) so there would be no royalties due (one would think) for natural occuring compounds.

That said, I'd like to see you enforce your "intellectual property rights" against the Klingon empire... my guess is, that there wouldnt be enough ash or soot left of you (or your attorney) to analyze, much less pay a royalty to.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:16 pm: Edit

MJC, your kinetic enrgy example falls apart becouse the math it is based on assumes you can't go FTL

as far as intellectual property goes, remember competition, if you make a program to make a hamburger and want to charge $1000 per hamburger someone else will make one and charge less and you will make nothing.

when you add to this many years and many planets worth of people chooseing to release them for free and the fact that a good replicator operator can scan an object and make a program for it you have enough competition that the cost of the programs will be pretty close to free. I expect that buying libraries of replicator programs will result in paying more for the packaging and storage media then for the programs themselves (although with so many options available there will be a market for libraries of programs where you aren't paying for the programs themselves, you are paying for the expertise in selecting the dozen best hamburger programs out of the 10,000 that are available)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:27 am: Edit

Scanning an item and making a copy is not terribly difficult. The computer does much ofthe work. But the product is less than inspired. Generalize routines are applied and do not take into account the very small specifics (as they change from place to place, item to item etc.)

To create very high quality materials take a lot of work, many deep subatomic scanns and its usually not worth it. In most cases you just want a quick usable copy.

HOWEVER, quality makes ALL the difference in a replicator program. Quick scans of an object for a program that is to be distributed just will not do. These programs take very hard work and require very extensive knowledge of Sub-atomic physics, and a certain flair of creativity. Most people with this knowledge will apply themselves is better paying jobs (some few will work for companys designing relicator programs). Indeed some of the best programs come from those rare types that started it as a hobby and took many years to get it just right. These sorts of programs are protected and sold. THere are packages for cheep but those programs are less than the best. Some of the best a protected Company/State/Military secrets.

It runs the gambit just like our computer programs today do. I can get pretty good Word Processors for free or even cheep or I can spend $300.00 on one. There is package deals or separate. There is probably even an OEM Bundle with each new replicator (that like todays computers, help sell the Replicator).

So ya, there may be hundreds of Hamburger programs out there but there is probably one you really like and if its expensive and you have the money you'll pay.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:34 am: Edit

Not really, Loren.

Real food is cheaper, so if you're close to a source of supply you're good. On the other hand, if you are on a deep space exploration mission and your last supply line ended thirty systems back, you have to eat what you can replicate.

Hmm ... maybe that's the reason behind a Small Exploration Freighter ... all that cargo is food for the crew!

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 12:55 am: Edit

some of the people who start off as a hobby and tinker for years will sell the stuff to a company for a modest amount (and the company will make more), but there will also be people who continue to do it as a hobby and release it for free for the reputation benifit.

just like programming today. there are a lot of people writing very good programs and releaseing them for free. in some cases these programs are better then you can buy, in other cases they aren't but their presense drives down the cost of basic infrastructure components

so common, everyday replicator programs should be cheap or free, but if you need something extremely specialized it may not be

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 01:27 am: Edit

Gary, that's true but the food is replicated as needed.

David, I would agree with that for the most part but high quality replicator programs aren't quite like a nice Anti-Virus in C++. I wonder if those people making free programs would be making them if they had to do it all in machine code with an 8 year physics degree.

Yes, even then you would get some people doing good and even great stuff for free but no enough to hurt the market. No one person will be able to create very many programs in a life time so that sort of thing would be rare. Linux is good stuff and dirt cheep. But Windows (hard to believe as it is) has a better reputation. People go to Microsoft because they don't know any better....er know what to expect. They don't want to worry if what they are buying it top quality.

And so Replicator programs are a commodity and big money.

Replicator builders pay people. The military has a very sizable budget. Some companies make a living on designing them. Corporations have in house designers for their products. There is, in the Federation and other Empires a standard that the Product can display such a UL/RSA and the IGEES6824/RPQ rating.

UL/RSA = Underwriters Laboratory/Replicators Standard Annex

IGEES6824/RPQ = Inter Galactic Electronics and Engineering Standards version 68.24/Replicator Program Quality rating 1.0-5.0. Ratings below 4 are typically not displayed. Ratings below 3 are not suitable for market in any way. Ratings of 5 are rare and of the highest quality. Ratings of 5.1 to 5.9 are things that break new technological ground is superb ways. These are super rare and are always the subject of great media attention.

Hee, hee. I can't stop!

By David Lang (Dlang) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 01:51 am: Edit

Loren, even just one or two programs releaed for free per person in their lifetime multiplied by all the worlds over a lengthy time period still leaves a legacy of a LOT of free programs

I'm not saying that there aren't special ones, but unless the item is very new or novel I would expect that there will beenough competition to drive the prices WAY down

and the lower prices do have a way of cascading to other areas (just like nobody used to care about software at $2000/machine, they spent $50k on the hardware and another $10K on the OS (plus $5k/eyar on maintinance) so a software program for $2k didn't receive a second look, but now that you buy the server for $2k and the OS is free people look really hard at a vendor pitching their software for $2k)

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 02:39 am: Edit

Well, that's just the thing. During the SFU timeline the replicator goes through 4 TL advancements. So does programming and even though there are lots and lots of people on many worlds there won't be some many making Replicator Programs. Some worlds would have only a few that make stuff pertaining to their own world.

It would be the volume of sales that would make them affordable not freeware. Look at our situation today with programs. There are tons of freeware out there compared to our population and the software market is fine. Freeware is not supported well in most cases and not serviced and not reliable. What if your freeware programs ruins my Replicator. Now I'm really paying through the nose and I'm sure that will void the warrenty. Remember these things are transmuting and reforming matter at the atomic level. A bad program could even be dangerous. Programs that don't void your warrenty need to be cirtified. Cirtification cost money. Hence, programs will need to cost money.

I'd guess the only free stuff would be old programs and the ones that come with the Replicator.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 03:27 am: Edit

Maybe instead of one do-all device, replicators are only allowed for a limited range of uses. Food producing replicators are incapable of producing industrial solvents. Spare parts replicators can not produce anything recognizable as a food item. That would reduce the chances of an error producing a fatal result. Early military replicators might be able to have those flaws with the expectation that one will use the replicator only in a situation where death is likely anyways.

Spare parts replicators in the commercial sector might get the programs bundled as part of the cost of purchasing the equipment. (Edit: I mean buy the warp drive, get every program needed to replicate parts for maintainence.) This could leave those who scrounge for parts needing to find a matching replicator program. This might place a crimp on the more criminally minded since the authorities could watch for unusual requests for spare part replication programs that match recently stolen parts. Recycling a pirated freighter's warp engines might be difficult if each engine model has a very limited production run requiring specific support so few will ask for replacement programs at any time.

By Ian Whitchurch (Ian_Whitchurch) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 08:32 am: Edit

MJC,

No Vilani In The SFU. This Is Not Negotiable.

Remember, we need to stop replicators destroying trade and commerce. Everything else is secondary.

David Lang.

Dont do more damage to the Laws of Conservation of Energy than we need to. After all, they underwrite economics ie trade and commerce, so see above.

Ian Whitchurch

By michael john campbell (Michaelcampbell) on Wednesday, December 08, 2004 - 08:56 am: Edit

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Remember, we need to stop replicators destroying trade and commerce. Everything else is secondary.

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