Archive through November 19, 2006
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Prime Directive RPG: RPG PLAYTESTING:
Archive through November 19, 2006
Loren Knight wrote: Because at the time this GPD was the only SFU RPG and needed to appeal to all RPG markets as best as possible. It was also a desire to get people that were only interested in JUST SFU role playing something that required a minimal investement.
And it remains the one system in the PD line that is stand alone. If you want to buy just ONE book (asside from the racial source books)then GPD is the book to get.
OK... I can see that... to a point.
But let me see if I can clarify my position -- and if this is simply against the business model that ADB has decided to go, then please tell me and I will shut up. 
If I am going to get GURPS Prime Directive, in an RPG market where GURPS remains one of the top RPGs currently supported, does it not make sense that I am going to be a GURPS player?
If your answer to this question is no, then you are supposing (best I can tell) that GURPS Prime Directive can serve as an introductory RPG -- an RPG that would lure in new RPGers. And this is something I just do not see.
The idea of effectively saying if you want more, please go buy the GURPS Basic Set, where you will get a duplication of nearly 50% of the book you just bought... plus a whole lot more! seems, to me anyway, counter-productive.
At any rate, it was your choice. I do not agree with it, but I can live with it. It just means that a large chunk of my GURPS Prime Directive book is wasted paper, in my eyes.
Loren Knight wrote: BTW: The GPD 4e book is bigger than the D20 book by 10 pages.
OK... and? This is a very minor amount (about 5% of the overall book size). But, it just serves to strengthen my point. Reduce the size of GURPS Prime Directive by 10 pages; remove the GURPS Lite you have in there, and use that for more templates and other SFU material.
A win/win if I ever saw one.
Quote:If I am going to get GURPS Prime Directive, in an RPG market where GURPS remains one of the top RPGs currently supported, does it not make sense that I am going to be a GURPS player?
New players (trekkies perhaps) don't know if they will or will not. What makes sense to me is that there should be at least ONE system in the PD line that does not require any additional material.
Further, I'd have to review but there isn't that much GURPS lite stuff in the book. I'd bet the ten extra pages accounts for much of the GURPS lite rules that doesn't have a counter part in D20 or D6 (still upcoming).
GPD core book isn't going to change. There is a mess of them printed already (and on store shelves). Experienced players know what to skip over pretty easy and there is an abundance additional material in the racial source books. IF the GURPS lite stuff was removed then GPD would likely be 190 pages just like the D20 book. The basic source material needs to be (and is) identical in each system.
There is no additional material to be included in the Core rule books. I would note that GPD 4e ushered in quite a lot of extra material over the 3e book which was 176 pages so we already did some of what you want.
I cannot speak to ADB policy but I'm pretty sure it doesn't include redoing the GPD 4e book (which was a serious nightmare because A) ADB got screwed by the sudden chance to 4e just after publishing the 3e version and B) it took a lot of work to format it and make it better (which gave 3e buyers a reason to buy 4e just a year later) and get the not compleatly compleate 4e rules down.)
Well, I got my books back and so I can address this post. First we have:
Loren Knight wrote: New players (trekkies perhaps) don't know if they will or will not. What makes sense to me is that there should be at least ONE system in the PD line that does not require any additional material.
With this, I disagree. There is no need for any given system in this line to be "no other books needed." But if you insiste that there be one, then might I suggest FUDGE.
Loren Knight wrote: Further, I'd have to review but there isn't that much GURPS lite stuff in the book. I'd bet the ten extra pages accounts for much of the GURPS lite rules that doesn't have a counter part in D20 or D6 (still upcoming).
GPD core book isn't going to change. There is a mess of them printed already (and on store shelves). Experienced players know what to skip over pretty easy and there is an abundance additional material in the racial source books. IF the GURPS lite stuff was removed then GPD would likely be 190 pages just like the D20 book. The basic source material needs to be (and is) identical in each system.
OK... lets look in the book shall we?
A sizable portion of Chapter 2 (pages 27-35) is all 'generic GURPS BASIC SET material' -- that accounts for 9 pages.
Chapter 3 (pages 59-89) as well as chapter 4 (pages 90-103) is all 'generic GURPS BASIC SET material' -- that accounts for 44 pages in a smaller than normal font (meaning that this would have been a larger section of the book had the font size not dropped).
Chapter 5 (pages 104-125; as well as page 128 is all 'generic GURPS BASIC SET material' -- thaqt accounts for 22 pages.
Now... this means that, with little or no effort, I have just made note of a total of 75 pages in a 200 page book that are filled with nothing more than material already in the GURPS BASIC SET. Other pages repeat GURPS BASIC SET material, but it is more scattered outside of these sections.
In other words, nearly 40% of this book is material that I, as a GURPS player, have already payed for.
This is, in my estimation, far more than the 10 pages you have estimated above.
Tell me; is the second column of Page 36 "Generic GURPS BASIC SET material"?
Is the second column of Page 37 or half the first column?
There are several illustrations through out that section, some actually important to playing (ship IDs)
Second column on page 35 is NOT "Generic GURPS BASIC SET material" but is SFU specific and I'm not sure but the stuff in the first column of 36 as well.
Pages 59 to 89: Mostly GURPS rules but some are tailored, in particular check page 72, Vulcan Psi Powers... not "Generic GURPS BASIC SET material.”
Chapter 5: I might be wrong but the RELATIVE EXPLOSIVE FORCE table on Pg. 118 has been modified for the SFU.
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Now, I was certainly hasty in not checking things out myself before suggesting that the extra ten pages may account for the GURPS rules stuff. But then it took me about ten minutes to point out the above and I don't have any "Generic GURPS BASIC SET material.”
One immediate difference in GPD4e and PD20 is that there are many illustrations in PD20 that are much larger that the same ones in GPD AND PD20 is done in a somewhat larger font. There are also more blank spaces.
PD20 has corresponding sections that are SFU specific but are also D20 rules for play. PD20 does have some minor additions such as the Telik Kreg illustration (with a data caption) on page 63. There are corresponding skill descriptions and Feats (tables and descriptions).
All in all GPD4e make far more efficient use of space than PD20 does.
The bottom line is that unless you count a few new illustrations there is no more background material in either publication.
Since I personally don't care to purchase all the expensive GURPS 4e stuff I am very happy that GPD4e can be played without them (there are others too). I have both versions (and will get a version of all core books) because I'm staff and a writer. I'm not the RULES guy but I do get the staff e-mails and know that all the core books contain the same background material. You are not getting ripped for material in GPD4e.
You might convince SVC to print a "GURPS Expert" series of the GPD4e books that leaves out all of the GURPS rules but that might not be his decision alone. Steve Jackson is happy with the current book and that is part of the equation. You might have to convince him too. You see, having the GURPS lite stuff in GPD4e is sort of like advertising for his company. If I was really running GPD campaigns a lot then I would be likely to buy many more GURPS products.
You will be glad to know that the majority of Racial Source books lack the "Generic GURPS BASIC SET material" that frustrates you. It's just the core books.
Look, it is apparent to me that I am upsetting you. This is certainly not my intent. And no, I was not attempting to state that every single word on all of those pages was completely generic GURPS Basic Set Material (although that may not have come across as clear as I had hoped). Let us assume that only about half of the material I cited is, in fact, actual duplicated material from the GURPS Basic Set (a figure, I think you will agree, is very, very generous). This still results in 35-40 pages of material -- 3.5 times to 4.0 times what you suggested.
In other words... I was simply stating that there is a lot more than 10 pages of material here that duplicates the material that I, as a GURPS player, already have. And that (if I am interpreting the posts you have made) the d20 version have nowhere near this amount of material duplication. I have also pointed out that, if the choice had been made, the d20 version could have been OGL and thus a stand alone RPG, instead -- no longer needing the Player's Handbook to use...
But, it is evident that (a) nothing I say here is going to change anything that happens in the future with this line; (b) you are not all that interested in what I have to say; and (c) it is becoming increasingly apparent that my continuing to say it is making me less and less welcome.
So, I will drop the point.
I will make the changes I feel need to be made for my home games and go on. I will continue to purchase the GURPS PD Race books (as I consider them to be very good values, well written, and good material).
Sorry to rain on your parade. But the only reason I brought this up is that I love GURPS, and I love Star Fleet Battles. Otherwise, why would I make the effort to raise my concerns?
KDL. Making the PD20 book not need the Players Handbook would have made it THREE times as large. There is a LOT of generic material missing in the PD20 book.
K.David, you've got a valid point, but it doesn't apply to everyone. You are lucky enough to have all the GURPS books, because you are a GURPS player who is entering the ADB world.
There are lots of people out there who, to Steve Jackson's regret, haven't bought GURPS. Many are people coming from the ADB fandom who have no interest in GURPS beyond playing GPD, while others just can't afford buying two or three hardbacks. Others are hard-core STAR TREK fans who are only now getting interested in RPGs. For those people, having a minimal edition of the rules in GPD3 and GPD4 saves them $80-ish that they just may not have, no matter how badly they want to spend it. THAT is the reason we reprinted so much of the GURPS ruleset in GPD.
(Incidentlly, this is also a good deal for SJG. As people discover how good the GURPS system is, they may also want to explore how it works in other genres. It's a definite win-win for both ADB and SJG!)
The other books we publish (like KLINGONS and ROMULANS and so forth) include a minimal amount of rules and other material printed in those SJG hardbacks -- maybe one or two pages total. When you get around to it, you'll see that for yourself!
So yes, there is a lot of material in GPD that duplicates what you already have. That will NOT be the case with all of the other books that we print for GPD, and by extension for PD20 and the other game systems we eventually license.
(And before anyone asks, I have NO idea what is going on with PD6 or PD-Hero or the other systems beyond what SVC has said. I just work on GPD and background material.)
K. David Ladage
OK, I'll take a breath too. Really what it boils down too, my whole post, is that once you remove the rules portion of PD20 and GPD (though different rules) and take into account that GPD has a smaller font (more data on each page)and less/smaller pictures and less white space you have the difference of the ten pages.
The total pure background material is vurtually the same.
But like I said, you might ask SVC for an "Experts" GPD version but I can tell you it WILL be a smaller book (you just won't have to wade through the GURPS lite rules). What I suspect will be of considerable more use to you is GURPS Federation, coming soon. Since GPD is sort of Fed centric this should be all that background material you've been craving.
As I said, I do not want to harp on this. It was never my intent to seem too critical here, just trying to understand a choice that was made.
Now, if I read this correctly: There are lots of people out there who, to Steve Jackson's regret, haven't bought GURPS. Many are people coming from the ADB fandom who have no interest in GURPS beyond playing GPD, while others just can't afford buying two or three hardbacks. So, pointing them to the freely available GURPS Lite would not have been an option? OK, barring this, I can see your point. But this is not the case with the d20 version -- where they are forced to buy a $30 hardcover book in order to get (essentially) and this is how you roll up the six attributes...
Now, you explain that having a minimal edition of the rules ... saves them $80-ish that they just may not have is why you reprinted the GURPS material so aggresively. I can respect that. I do not agreew with it, but I can respect it... if the same consideration in other systems had been taken. Which, by your own admission, was not taken.
Look, if you want a you do not need any other rule books edition of this game, fine... use FUDGE. It was practically tailor made for such considerations. And it is just about the perfect introductory RPG. 'nuff said.
Oh, and where you state that The other books we publish (like KLINGONS and ROMULANS and so forth) include a minimal amount of rules and other material printed in those SJG hardbacks -- maybe one or two pages total. When you get around to it, you'll see that for yourself!... I have them. I like them. I have said as much. I think they are wonderful books. I will be getting the whole collection.
Loren wrote: OK, I'll take a breath too.
No problem.
Again, if I did not love this stuff so much, I would nto bother to give my opinions. Sorry if it came across too critical.
K. David Ladage:
Well, you have to go back to when the commitment was made which was during GURPS 3e.
At that time there was ONLY going to be the GURPS version. It was THE prime choice not just for the good systems but Steve and Steve are friends. Originally, Prime Directive was it's own role playing system. So it's reintroduction based on the GURPS system was a great thing as there was a huge market full of GURPS fans. Including the GURPS Lite was part of the plan to make the game available to non-GURPS fans right off the shelf.
I've never heard of FUDGE but there is no way that FUDGE was going to be chosen as the ONE game engine of choice over GURPS.
The GURPS 3e went the way of the dinosaur and ADB took a serious blow as a result. The only choices were to drop the line or convert to 4e.
As you know we now have 4e which benefitted very well from the experience of 3e. GPD 4e got some valuable additional material (which encurraged people to buy again) and all the errata and typoes integrated. GURPS was still the only system. Shortly after (perhaps just prior to pulication) the plan to expande PD into multiple systems was announced to the staff.
GURPS remains a superior systme to many. I see no ecconomic value in scrapping what's been done. Would you say FUDGE is a superior RPG system to GURPS Lite? If not then why should PD have less than the best as it's stand alone system. What system should we give people who just want to fool around with PD? When they ask the guy at the game store if the role playing system is any good what will be the answer that sells the book. I suspect that the GURPS version will get more possative feedback to the customer. The costomer will see dozens of GURPS books and what he learns in GPD will be of use if they want to move on. How many FUDGE books are there? Are they as well done as GURPS?
And lastly, what system do you want newbies going to? FUDGE instead of GURPS? I mean, isn't it better for GURPS that D20 requires the expensive PH? The D20 market is pretty big so it's worth it to tap into that market but for the most part only experienced D20 RPGers will buy PD20. But anyone can pickup GPD and play it for 25 bucks and some dice (and you don't need a giant dice bag either!).
KDL said
Quote:But this is not the case with the d20 version -- where they are forced to buy a $30 hardcover book in order to get (essentially) and this is how you roll up the six attributes...
Incorrect - any skill or feat description in the Players Handbook is not repeated in PD20, nor are rules on how to use skills, how to move, how to fight, etc. The PD20 rules require the Player's Handbook.
Andy Palmer wrote: Incorrect - any skill or feat description in the Players Handbook is not repeated in PD20, nor are rules on how to use skills, how to move, how to fight, etc. The PD20 rules require the Player's Handbook.
Ah. I do not have the d20 version (although I may get it just so I can compare the two)... I should have left that part out becasue I seriously do not know what is in that book.
KDL: I try to reply to everyone's posts here. There really aren't other good venues for people to post to, so it's only polite for me to take the time to reply. Anyhow, don't worry about it.
One consideration about reprinting rules is the licensing agreements thatare needed. SVC got a very liberal license from Steve Jackson re that for GPD. While I don't know the full details, the contracts for the other game engines were nowhere near as good (from our point of view).
And as Loren mentioned, GPD was a done deal long before anyone thought about doing D20, etc.
Work on GPD3 started back in 2001. Maybe if we were just now today getting around to doing GPD, we might do it differently, with the core book being all content and no rules. Or maybe not. Who knows?
No problem, Mr. Plana. I will try to be more contructive, and less critical in the future...
Loren Knights wrote: Would you say FUDGE is a superior RPG system to GURPS Lite?
As an introductory RPG? Most definately.
GURPS Lite is, to be honest, lacking in many ways. The system from GURPS 3e to 4e changed enough that they really needed a bit more material to do GURPS lite justice. But Steve Jackson limited it to 32 pages... and so GURPS Lite is what it is.
FUDGE is a superb and quite simple little RPG engine that is available via a free license, much like OGL / d20 is. More can be found out about it here:
http://www.fudgerpg.com
I used to volunteer as the webmaster over there; but I have not been working with the folks over at Grey Ghost for a while now. However... I would love to volunteer to do the work on a FUDGE Prime Directive book for you, if you like... it would be a lot of fun!
Now that's an idea! But it ain't for me. I suggest sending Steve Cole and E-mail making the offer. He's really too busy right now but you guys can then plan to talk it over after Origins.
Prime FUDGE... Sorry, I couldn't help it.
I still think that GURPS is the better way to go since there is such a good system to go to if you want to expand. I think newbies will feel more comfortable investing in GPD because they can know it's a quality system. Sort of, brand security.
But it certainly would be good to have choices and I don't see a problem with adding FUDGE to the list of PD RPG systems. Not my choice to make though.
I just sent an email... we'll see.
KDL: "it is becoming increasingly apparent that my continuing to say it is making me less and less welcome."
No one should feel "unwelcome" on this board. (Well, there are a couple people, but they brought that upon themselves.) Please feel free to express opinions ... that's what this board is all about. Of course, you do need to know when to simply agree to disagree (as you and Loren did) and move on to other ideas.
Garth L. Getgen
So what GPD products are currently in playtesting?
Federation, Tholians.
And the term is development. They use the established gurps rules and do not take much traditional playtesting.
Sorry if I'm harping in the wrong thread but does anyone know whts the next planned release for any of the Prime Directive systems?
(Not saying anything about the d20 version since I used to play d&d most and as a result am trying to learn Gurps 4e due to comparing the 2 and I'm saying nothing further!)
Feds and Tholians. Two different books. Really.
Any idea when?
I've got mainly manuel work to do to finish the bulk of PD Tholians. I have several art pieces and some fiction to create but 98% of the planing is done.
Main History is done and I'm working out the Seltorian ancient history now.
Very early '07 should have the work in SVC's hands and he might set a release date then.
Thats good news, have to admit would definitely like to know more about them especially as the original episode that introduced them made them just as fearsome as the borg except in making them a truly alien race whereas the other was just an evolution of technology gone way wrong...
Fortunately I guess the Andromedans will correct that oversight...
Hmm makes me want to take another look at PD d20... sigh have to figure out Gurps 4th edition first.
Take care and all the best!