Not really. There is a Shipyard section that contains ships raw data.

Other than that can you better describe what you are trying to achieve?

By Van Rippey (Towerwarlock) on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 02:54 pm: Edit

I am seeking to develope a way to construct the ships using the new T20 Traveller system for the d20 system.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, June 23, 2007 - 05:16 pm: Edit

I'll defer to Gary Plana for that. I know he's working on PD Starships but I don't know of a way to do that.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 12:47 am: Edit

Van, I'm in the process of writing GPD STARSHIPS (working title, but very likely). Two major sections in it: The first has all the design rules needed, partly from the (currently) unpublished VEHICLES4e from SJG, and the remainder (rules for photon torps and other unique-to-SFU items) written by me.

Part two will be a bunch of examples, major or special ships for each race; Fed CA, Rom WE, etc.

Not sure when GS will hit the shelves, it will almost be in sequence after PD-FEDS and PD-THOLIANS.

As far as I know, there are no plans to do a similar book for PD20 or PD20M. I'm not saying that there never will be, just nothing currently.

By Van Rippey (Towerwarlock) on Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 06:17 am: Edit

Frack!!! Double Frack!!!!
Well if anything comes out for GURPS, I probably could convert it pretty easily. However, I have the G1 klingon gunboat deckplans and it mentions the stats for Megatraveller. If I could get those I might be able to swing something.

By Jonathan Lang (Dataweaver) on Sunday, September 23, 2007 - 02:29 pm: Edit

Steve Jackson Games just released GURPS Spaceships on e23. On a twice-over look, it appears that the spaceship design system given there could be used to do quick mock-ups of most SFU starships with minimal tweaking. Also included is an abstract space combat system which - while needing slightly more tweaking to account for the FTL speeds involved - appears to work quite nicely for the purpose of running a ship-to-ship combat in the middle of a roleplaying session.

By Andrew Marrington (Mazza) on Thursday, December 20, 2007 - 09:17 am: Edit

I have tried spaceship design with GURPS Spaceships and I think it would work OK with more SFU specific systems. The book is so generic that the range of genres of technology it allows you to pick for your spaceships means that there isn't much range within particular genres.

By Jonathan Lang (Dataweaver) on Wednesday, April 23, 2008 - 04:31 pm: Edit

I'm not so sure about that. The primary area where SFU-specific systems would be useful would be the weapon systems - especially some of the more unique ones like the PPD and the Webcasters. But the writers of GURPS Spaceships wanted to be sure that you could build spacecraft with a Star Trek vibe if you wanted to; and given that SFU has an understandably strong Star Trek vibe, a lot of the options that GURPS Spaceships included in this respect (such as personnel teleporters, force fields, and tractor beams) fit into place naturally.

Try this out: Pull out an SSD, and look at each set of boxes that it has. Then pull out GURPS Spaceships and see if you can find a system and/or option that's conceptually similar. You may be surprised at how much is covered.

IMHO, the biggest problem that you'll encounter in rendering SFU starships using the GURPS Spaceships design system is that you don't get a lot of flexibility on the sizes: every starship is given a Size rating ranging from +5 to +15 or so, and every two steps up count as an order of magnitude increase in the spacecraft's mass. IIRC, some SFU ship designs don't differ from one another by anywhere near that much.

The other issue that will crop up in converting things is that GURPS Spaceships scales ship systems relative to the spaceship size: A Size +12 ship will, for example, get three times as many crew quarters from the selection of a single "crew quarters" design element as a Size +11 ship would. This is part of what makes spaceship design so easy: "choose a size, then select 20 systems to fill it out" covers most of the design process.

By Andrew Marrington (Mazza) on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 12:29 am: Edit

I've actually already done what you suggest, Jonathan. GURPS Spaceships works really well to convert a couple of ships over, but there isn't much variety within the "Trek-like" category of technology, so once you've built more than a couple of ships, the capabilities of SFU ships built with GURPS Spaceships will be very similar.

The GURPS Spaceships system would be fine "as is" if you only wanted to build the party's spaceship and one or two threat ships. If spaceship combat is a more significant part of your game, however, then the SFU-appropriate material in GURPS Spaceships doesn't go into enough variety. Two ships with drastically different capabilities in SFB can end up surprisingly similar in GURPS Spaceships.

You're right about sizes as well, of course, and I think the weapons systems are where the need for more SFU-specific systems is most noticeable. I just think the same thing holds true across the rest of the system. The basic system is great, but because it is so generic, it doesn't provide much variety within a sub-genre (e.g. the Trek-like sub-genre), once you build a few ships.

Because of that, I think a great GURPS product for ADB to publish would be an expansion for GURPS Spaceships adding more SFU-specific material. Maybe that could be the product "GURPS Starfleet" we've seen mentioned in the existing books.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 01:33 am: Edit

That's what Gary's working on right now, IIRC.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Friday, April 25, 2008 - 09:11 am: Edit

Yep.

By Andrew Marrington (Mazza) on Tuesday, April 29, 2008 - 04:02 am: Edit

Yes, I had read that elsewhere, and I'm looking forward to it!

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Monday, April 13, 2009 - 06:11 pm: Edit

GURPS Spaceships 3 Warships and Space Pirates is now out:

http://e23.sjgames.com//item.html?id=SJG37-0122

Just downloaded it so I haven't read through it yet, but it does have the hex based tactical combat rules (which build on the basic combat rules in Spaceships 1). Also lots of worked example ships like the previous Spaceship PDFs.

It even has stats for the Intrepid class frontier cruiser, or GURPS take on the Enterprise.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 12:49 am: Edit

I've seen it the E stats might be coret or thee new Movie E, thats all.

By Nick G. Blank (Nickgb) on Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 04:13 pm: Edit

coret?

Yeah, which version is not clear, but it is a generic Trek type technology cruiser, warp drive, tractors, transporters, reactionless impulse drive, beam weapons, torpedoes, etc...

By Andrew Marrington (Mazza) on Friday, April 17, 2009 - 04:29 am: Edit

And after buying GURPS Spaceships 3, I am even more convinced that if you are going to pull out a hex map you might as well use FC for ship to ship combat. The Spaceships 3 rules look like they'd take at least as long as FC.

By Robert Saint John (Groknard) on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 01:44 am: Edit

There are many RPGers who would really prefer not to go into "wargame mode" and hop over to a new table to play out ship-to-ship combat in FC or SFB. The "SFB for Ship Combat" rules on 164 of GPD are interesting, but appeal more to those who already have and play SFB.

It's not just GPD, either. The same (IMO) weakness applies to PD D20M. PD's lack of role-playing oriented ship-to-ship combat rules -- where each player has an integral duty to carry out -- is one of the things that keeps PD from being embraced by many of those who enjoyed the FASA, LUG and Decipher games (and so many other SF RPGs like Traveller, Alternity, Thousand Suns, etc.).

It doesn't take a lot of rules or pages (let alone a whole book) to outline a narrative or hybrid narrative/visual system for starship combat where ships are given a simple set of stats and character skills are applied toward using them.

If the goal is to drive PD players to buy FC or SFB, well, I guess that works for ADB. But I'm not sure that's the best or most profitable solution. I know that I personally would prefer a generic "PD Starships of the SFU" type book that detailed 20 ships, gave guidelines to creating/converting new ones (including from FC and FB), provided stats for GURPS and D20M, and rules for role-playing ship combat. That would be a nice $25 book! Make it a hybrid visual version, throw in a single foldout hex sheet and counters based on what you already have, and I'll gladly pay you $35.

Maybe such a thing has already been considered (I'm still not sure what the product "STAR FLEET" for the two systems was supposed to be long ago. But I thought I'd throw in some thoughts from someone who comes to PD from a more RPG point of view. (And, yes, I *do* have and have played FC, SFB and other ADB and TFG SFU products; I just don't think they mix well into role-playing).

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 02:00 am: Edit

The tourney counter sheet could work for that.

Minis are better but maybe more expensive than what some would want to pay (and mini's really need to be painted for that kind of fun).

I think the PD line needs some generic books for sure. The generic starship book sounds like the most needed (although, I've been wanting to see more ground forces data too).

Naturally, a major consideration is time. The SFU is a very consistant game universe and that require everything (for all the games) go though a bit of a bottle neck of a very few people. It's also a very big universe.

By Robert Saint John (Groknard) on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 02:26 am: Edit

Agreed on the tourney sheet. Actually, I like minis, though I trend more toward micro machines myself. I guess what I'm saying is "more choice". There's no reason that starship combat in PD couldn't be carried out in any fashion from pure narrative to full-blown SFB. Different groups are going to choose different ways. But give them guidelines. I think it's worth noting that a good chunk of D&D players will not play 4E for one single reason: they won't touch minis. To them, using minis, maps, counters and hexes isn't roleplaying (which is strange considering how the game and hobby started, but that's another topic...)

Also agreed on the need for more generic books. I really have to wonder if books such as Romulans, Klingons, and Federation really need to be system specific. There's very little system specific in them! I would think that it would certainly help get books out faster. Having said that, the core PDG and PD20M books are certainly different, and both better for it.

For the hypothetical Starships book, I would think the thing is not to let that "big universe" get in the way. Start small, a few ships from a few races (6 each from the top 4?), plus conversion rules. Expand later if it sells well. Stay light on fluff, because fluff is canon, and I suspect canon is a big part of the bottleneck, no?

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 07:55 am: Edit

Robert, part of the bottleneck is that I work a fulltime real life job. Part of that job requires community service (which must be done in my free time.) I also do a lot of proofreading on other products. I also need to eat and sleep and sometimes do things to make my living space habitable.

You are right on the non-game-specific portions of the empire sourcebooks. Still, it takes time to get the original right. It takes time to make sure all the parts in the original get changed over to the new system. You wouldn't believe how many times that PL (d20M) shows up (and in GURPS that is TL and each instance of it must be changed). You wouldn't believe how many times a throwaway sentence such as "Roll against X skill to resolve this" is in the text. You wouldn't believe the format differences between companies. SJG requires that titles be bolded and in italics. d20 games do not have that bolding. In short, it ain't as easy as it seems.

Robert, are you saying that the role of the characters on p. 147-148 of PD20M are not enough? Do you have another system in mind? Will that system yield the same results as SFB/FC? (The last question is a requirement for the SFU.) If you do, feel free to submit it.

Jean
RPG Line Editor

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 12:52 pm: Edit

I just want to be sure an explain that I mean nothing personal or negative when I use the term 'bottleneck'.

We fans and writers and pure in all the ideas and articles we want but it comes down to the time and efforts of a very few people, SVC, and Jean for RPG's (with some help from SPP but he's mainly SFB).

This regulates how fast RPG products can get done, even without considering other products. HOWEVER, this is how quality control happens. What is equally important as the great editing work Jean does, is the fact that SVC keeps his game universe consistant. All games are based on one background and all systems, although they use different mechanics, yield similar results (I.e., a Fed cruiser is a fair match with a Klingon cruiser in all game systems, including RPG.)

I think I still understand what Robert is looking for though. It think his idea might be served pretty well is a reasonably short artcle in a generic book.

I seem to remember that a generic book line was a possible part of the product line but I can't remember what is was. Sort of a Captain's Log for the RPG lines. Anyway, right now starship combat has two basic ways of being played out. You either use one of the SFU game systems (which are complete when understood and used) or you role play it out using the requirements of plot to makes decisions. This second part can be Iffy because player have different views of how that plot can and should be payed out. You run into situations like, "His ship can't do that!" The rules of SFB or FC dictate what a ship can do or not but the pure role playing approach has little or no such support.

So I can see a need for a starship combat guide. This guide would reference existing articles on bridge crews and deck plans, and the ship guides of each empire book. But it could also include some thoughts from the writers input guide that discusses how to write bridge crew action (instead of just the Captain and XO). It could briefly discuss tactical issues between clasical opponants so RPGers know what should be expected when a Fed cruiser meets a Klingon D7. A simplified Master ship Chart for RPGers might be handy. It could include the basic hulls from SFB/FC, their balance factors (BPV), their crew divided into Officers, Enlisted, and Security in real numbers.

The Starship Reference Chart would include maneuver class. This would be the ships turn mode plus its generalized combat speed rating. Speed ratings would be F=full speed, M=medium speed (EY ships, some Roms, Aux?, Free Trader etc.) and S=slow (freighters etc). A plus mark after any of these would indicate the ship has exces power over the norm and can fire more weapons. A minus means the ship has extremely limited power like a freighter.

This SRC could replace a lot of detail writing and be pulled diretly from the MSC for much of its data.

Would I write it? I could. But there is probably a number of SFB players that could do pretty well. I have a full plate myself but could find time to participate.

I think once enough information is put out on enough ships, it will become a simple matter for players to use that example and extrapolte data on other ships using SFB/FC information themselves so I think data on a half dozen ships from the major Empires in the core book would do (or at least the ships listed in the Emprire books). Not the 2000+ ships from all of SFB. No way.

By Robert Saint John (Groknard) on Saturday, June 06, 2009 - 05:20 pm: Edit

Jean's workload understood and taken to heart from the other thread. These posts weren't meant as personal attacks. There's simply a lot of discussion about PD taking place due to renewed interest. Some of this is off-topic anyway. I will say this: Jean, I was never saying it was easy. I am a technical writer in RL, and write game material on the side. I do believe everything you say. I was simply suggesting ways that it might be easier, not easy.

In answer to Jean's question: "Robert, are you saying that the role of the characters on p. 147-148 of PD20M are not enough?" It's definitely a solution, but one that still refers the user to SFB/FC. I'm suggesting that there might be a way to take what's written about the roles, and abstract it further so that the boardgames aren't required. I think Loren gets what I'm saying. And I think Jonathan Thompson had some ideas which he may have even submitted at some point on this subject.

I do have some ideas, but I get the impression you hear lots of ideas that never get formally written or submitted. Earlier this week I started plugging ships into a spreadsheet that would provide abstract stats: offense rating, defense rating, hull, move, turn and so on. Ideally, they preserve the capabilities of SFU ships when compared to and pitted against each other. Any of the 2000+ ships and their characteristics could be plugged into the formulae and provide "role play" stats.

The difference is that these ratings would be used as modifiers against character skill tests, not the other way around. What I've yet to test are the things that would make the system unbalanced and broken: specifically, a group of characters in a Federation Light Cruiser should not be able to easily take down a a pair of Klingon C8 Dreadnought no matter how skilled.

And, ideally, such a system would work as-is for GURPS, D20M and others with minimal (if any) adjustment. One single generic PD Starships book.

Too early to say whether this is totally pie-in-the-sky or even of interest to others, so I won't say more unless I get serious enough about it to take it further.

By Sean O'Carroll (Terryoc) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 03:05 am: Edit

IIRC GURPS has or had a quick method of resolving characters involved in big battles. Just can't remember where I saw it or the details. IIRC it involved a skill check modified by whether your character was being normal, brave or cautious. Severe failure resulted in injury, death or capture (more likely if you were brave, less if you were cautious), big success meant winning big (more likely if you were being brave). Etc.

By Jean Sexton (Jsexton) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 07:02 am: Edit

As for abstracting data to create a starship battle, we do suggest that on p. 149 of PD20M. You could probably use the combat system from SFB Galactic Conquest and use the information in that same book about Legendary Officers (with the GM deciding on how legendary a PC is, perhaps allowing reduced bennies). Yes it would require the purchase of two additional books--G3 and the SFB GC RB--but you wouldn't be re-creating the wheel.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, June 07, 2009 - 10:01 am: Edit

Jean, is there a GCRB sample PDF? Something that gives you the basics? (I have no clue how it works.)