This should answer your question, Jonathan. Note that these are for ethnic Orions, not for Orion Pirates (who may be from any race).

[2.4.8.1] Orions (male) [6 Points]
o Attributes: +1 DX [10].
o Advantages: Cool [1], Cultural Adaptability [25].
o Disadvantages: Extravagance [-10], Greed [-15], Intolerance (legal systems) [-5].

[2.4.8.2] Orions (female) [6 Points]
o Attributes: -1 ST [-10]; +1 DX [10].
o Advantages: Cool [1], Fashion Sense [5], Pitiable [5], Very Beautiful [25].
o Disadvantages: Jealousy [-10], Lecherousness [-15], Uneducated [-5].

By John Sickels (Johnsickels) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 09:10 am: Edit

Since when is Lecheriousness a disadvantage, especially for females?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 01:17 pm: Edit

KZINTI FEMALES NON-SENTIENT. THEY ARE ABOUT AS INTELLIGENT THAN THE AVERAGE DOG.

SFU HAS **ALWAYS** SAID THIS.

IF THAT MEANS KZINTIS NEED TWO RTs, THEN I WOULD SUGGEST SOMEBODY GET OFF THEIR BUTT AND WRITE THE OTHER ONE, WHICH, BY THE WAY, THERE IS NO ROOM FOR, SO WE'LL JUST ADD A LINE SAYING THIS. OH, WAIT, IT'S ALREADY THERE AND HAS BEEN FOR SIX FREAKING MONTHS.

By Robert Gilson (Bobcat) on Friday, March 22, 2002 - 02:47 pm: Edit

KZINTI FEMALES NON-SENTIENT. THEY ARE ABOUT AS INTELLIGENT THAN THE AVERAGE DOG.

SFU HAS **ALWAYS** SAID THIS.

Works for me.

[2.4.8.2] Orions (female) [6 Points]
o Attributes: -1 ST [-10]; +1 DX [10].
o Advantages: Cool [1], Fashion Sense [5], Pitiable [5], Very Beautiful [25].
o Disadvantages: Jealousy [-10], Lecherousness [-15], Uneducated [-5]

Personally I would remove Fashion Sense and Pitiable and replace with HT+1. Higher HT is more helpful for the Sex Appeal skill.

By Kenneth Peters (Tzeentch) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 03:34 am: Edit

Well, Pitiable represents things like "puppy dog eyes" and so on - which I guess is debatable from their on-screen time. Fashion Sense is a bit iffy but why not, it seems to fit the concept ;)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 05:37 am: Edit

You guys do realize that since you're discussing orions in the topic for Feline empires that whatever you say or decide or realize or figure out isn't going to get done in GPD since you're in the wrong topic.

Hey, did I mention that reports in the wrong topic get ignored?

By Kenneth Peters (Tzeentch) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 04:00 pm: Edit

BAck to the subject of Kzinti...

I had proposed that Kzinti females had a identical template to the males except you add Presentient, Dull, and Innumerate. The version I saw of Gary's had Pheromone Control which looked like a really good idea.

I'm not sure if they would qualify for Bestial though - it's not something you usually add to "domesticated" animals (Dogs don't have it for example, but Wolves do). I imagine that they have been "civilized" enough that it's not necessary.

A dog is -5 IQ, I guess you could argue really smart dogs are -4 IQ but I find that unlikely (Chimps are -4 IQ as well). Animals make up for their low IQ (and hence really bad Sense/Awareness checks with high levels of Alertness and Enhanced Senses. I proposed IQ -3 (smarter then a chimp but dumber then a dolphin - don't get me started on the (IMHO) far too high dolphin IQ). I'm thiking this is actually too smart though, given the statements by SVC. How low do you think they should go before they enter the realm of unplayability (even worse off then the Seltorian Queens in some ways).

By Nathaniel Barnes (Ninetails) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 05:31 pm: Edit

Kenneth:

Given that kzinti females are, you know, non-sentient (the non-sentient vs. presentient debate is not one I feel like I can offer a useful opinion on), I don't see the need to make them playable as a PC.

By Nathaniel Barnes (Ninetails) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 05:49 pm: Edit

Comments on orion racial templates (with quotes for context) posted to General Discussions, as Steve the Cole's commentary.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 05:56 pm: Edit

Oh, I could go with monkey (-4).

By Kenneth Peters (Tzeentch) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:21 pm: Edit

Presentient (p. CI103 or BE117) means they can't be Literate (always have Illiterate [-10] in the SFU) and can only learn Easy mental skills. They can't learn any languages other then Gesture and Sign Language (so a female Kzinti could growl and hiss and so on but not speak in sentences). They can be tought to understand simple symbols. A dog, dolphin, monkey, etc are Presentient but they can have pretty complex social interactions and communications skills - they are not necessarily "stupid" or like a vegetable.

By Nathaniel Barnes (Ninetails) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 08:18 pm: Edit

Kenneth:

I don't know any suggestions from the backstory, either SFU or original Niven (I have _no_idea_ how relevant the latter is considered) that suggests that female kzinti are even so smart as presentient means. Of course, I don't know of any source that talks about them in any but the most vauge of terms outside 'The Ringworld Throne', which I can't really take all _that_ seriously as a source for SFU.

If _I_ were the God of SFU, I'd make all the kzinti females actively non-sentient, just to forstall anybody coming to me with plans for 'a female kzinti PC with a really Unusual Background' that's supposed to convince me to let them play one. But I'm well reputed to be a pretty fascist GM.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 10:40 pm: Edit

Presentient would seem to be too much, as it disallows any language skills. Ditto Beastial.

By Andrew C. Cowling (Andrew) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 06:35 am: Edit

Nathaniel, as I understand it, one of the "Man-Kzin Wars" guest authors came up with the idea that Kzinti females had been deliberately bred for stupidity over many generations, then Niven picked up and ran with the idea when he went back to the Ringworld.

It certainly does not have to apply to SFU Kzin, however. (I don't think the original plan with Known Space was for sentient females [you would need to ask their creator about that,though], but it did make for an entertaining story.)

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 12:05 pm: Edit

The 'bred for stupidity' thing is definitely NOT part of the SFU, nor will it be.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 02:34 pm: Edit

I firmly agree with SVC on this. Aside from the fact that I don't like the idea, remember the scene in RINGWORLD where it is "revealed" that the Puppeteers were breeding humans for luck, and Kzinti for docility? Remember Speaker's reaction to that? Multiply Speaker's reaction by several billion Kzinti and you'll see my point!

Kzinti Telepaths, on the other hand, are a lot easier to explain. Unlike the other 99.99% of male Kzintis, they are born with an atrophied gland (similar to a human's adrenal gland) and so Telepaths do not receive the +2 to ST, Hyperactive, and other hyper-aggressive tendencies that your average male Kzinti possesses. Males with this condition who survive to reach adulthood J almost always develop psionic abilities. This is built into the Kzinti RTs and so KTs will not have to take Unusual Background.

On the other hand, Kzinti Telepaths must take a disadvantage they may not buy off; they must take one level of Supersensitive (CI99) for every level of Power they possess. To balance this out, KTs have a number of other disadvantages which they MAY buy off (remember, under normal circumstances, disads that are part of a Racial Template may never be bought off). As the KT template costs -6 points, I don't see Supersensitive as being a killer disadvantage.

By Davyd Atwood (Blackelf) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 01:10 pm: Edit

I don't know much about GURPS mechanics; but it does seem to me that the line "about as intellegent as a dog" coupled with the stats for animals would let most GMs figure out what they needed for female Kzintis.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 02:28 pm: Edit

And every time their players argue with them over their interpretation, half of those GMs will email me, asking for guidance, while they are wondering why we didn't put such an obvious RT in the book in the first place.

They're going into the core rulebook. Period.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 03:13 pm: Edit

Only if there is room. Are we going to leave out Tholians to make room for Female Kzintis? That page is about five lines too long now (read: I'll delete five random sentences to make it fit) and that's without the ZFRT.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 07:45 pm: Edit

Once you get it into PM, I'll figure out what to trim. I always type in verbose mode anyhow, so I should be able to tighten up the text easily.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 12:58 am: Edit

When Kzinti men call their women "Pet" they really mean it! Purring probably needs no traslation. Its a universal thing.

By Hugh Bishop (Wildman) on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 12:28 pm: Edit

I think the Kzinti female idea should be that 90% of them are not literate and that Kzinti females that are part of the noble lines are literate and can be characters. I don't think the Sfb kzinti should work like Nivens kzinti. If you make them non or pre sentient you limit the options of the game too much. Make the limitations cultural not biological or genetic.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 01:36 pm: Edit

Hugh: I hate to be crass, but what the Kzinti women are (non-sentient, with the intelligence of a good German shepherd dog) is already in the history and CANNOT be changed. So your suggestion cannot be considered.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 03:03 pm: Edit

The Female Kzinti idea is totaly alien to us humans. Just as it should be. Its a challange. Since it is genetic it is not sexist. If it was cultural I would find it more offencive. Though it is a game. So I'd get over it.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 07:55 pm: Edit

I'm sure if a player really wanted to play a female kzinti who is sentient, that player could get the GM to go with an 'unusual background' sort of thing.