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by Steve Cole (Stevecole) Friday, December 21, 2001 - 4:26 pm
A holding file for thoughts, questions, suggestions, and reminders about what might, could, or should be in the Kzinti-Lyran-WYN-LDR book (scheduled for 2003). State your case but do not expect answers in real time.
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by Gary Plana (Garyplana) Friday, December 21, 2001 - 11:10 pm
The Carnivons may end up in this book as well; there really isn't any other book to put them in, and the two races they DID interact with (Kzinti and Lyrans) are in here.
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by Steve Cole (Stevecole) Friday, December 21, 2001 - 11:49 pm
It is also possible that once we see how high the stack of material is, we'll end up with GURPS Kzintis (and WYNs), GURPS Lyrans (and LDR), and GURPS Carnivons (and Coyotes).
Point of reference, we once had a product idea for a game system. This product was called TOTAL WAR and was to be 72 pages, 432 counters, and $20. Well, we found the stack of stuff was too big, so we started dividing it up into two pieces. Then three. Then.....
Carrier War (324 counters, $20), Special Operations (324 counters, $10), Marine Assault (432 counters, $15), Advanced Operations (432 counters, $30), ISC War, QuickWar, WebWar, AndroWar, CivilWars, EcoWar,
.... need I go on?
This topic is and should be a place to collect notes and ideas and requests and reminders on the Kzintis, Lyrans, WYNs, LDR, and Carnivons, but if they end up in five different books, don't say you were not warned.
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by Kenneth Peters (Tzeentch) Saturday, December 22, 2001 - 10:58 pm
Hmm. I'm sure the striking simularity in concept with the GURPS Traveller Alien Races books hasn't escaped anyones attention. All the minor races could be clumped into collections similar to that done for Traveller: Humaniti.
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by Robson, Thomas E. (Darklorddread) Friday, January 04, 2002 - 9:07 am
I wish that the K9 & Bird Races survived in the main stream SFB, because one of my old budies playing Kzintis use to always ignore their traditional enimies (the Lyrans & Klingons) and go after my Romulan ships (because of the birds painted on the ships) in our massive non-historical battles (talk about waves or solid walls of drones comeing after your _ss). When ever I destroyed one of his ships I'd say "Bow wow mother ------ (this is many years before the K9 race was published.
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by Gary Plana (Garyplana) Friday, January 04, 2002 - 11:24 am
GPD is not set in any particular time, and both the Carnivons and Paravians have racial templates in GPD, along with about 38 other SFB races.
So if you want to run an Early Years campaign where they are still around, you can!
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by Steve Cole (Stevecole) Friday, January 04, 2002 - 12:10 pm
And if your GM wants you to discover that (in HIS campaign anyway) they ain't dead, knock yourself out!
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by Jonathan Lang (Dataweaver) Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 12:29 am
A thought concerning the Kzinti and Lyrans of the WYN Star Cluster: It's been stated that the reason that the WYN denizens of these two races get along while the standard versions don't is supposed to be an "officially never-to-be-answered mystery", or what another gameline calls a "canon area of doubt and uncertainty". Fine; I have no problem with this. However, I _would_ like to see the Feline Empires sourcebook propose a number of competing (and, if possible, contradictory) possible explanations which the GM can choose between or take inspiration from for his own campaign. Note that while it is clearly a mystery to the denizens of the Lyran and Kzinti empires how their WYN counterparts get along, it probably _isn't_ a mystery to the WYN denizens themselves (or it might be, which is another option to throw in). Regardless, you should probably address the issue of approximately when a feline in the Star Cluster is likely to lose the -7 reaction modifier - gradually over time, as soon as he swears alliegance to the Usurper, after being forced to ingest a mind-altering substance found only in the Cluster, etc. I'm not looking for final answers here; just suggestions to help the GM handle some of the finer points of the issue. As mentioned elsewhere, there are certain things which ought to be mysteries to the players, and there are _lots_ of things which should be mysteries to the PCs; but there's _nothing_ which the GM Must Never Know.
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by Gary Plana (Garyplana) Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 2:49 am
Write some up, the Steves and I will take a look at them.
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by Alex Chobot (Alendrel) Wednesday, January 16, 2002 - 12:44 pm
Here's a bit of a complex idea for a potential Why:
The Kzintis, Lyrans, and Carnivons were all races modified/engineered by one race long ago. Part of the engineering of that race included a deep-seated dislike of the other two and a strong drive to improve one's own race. Thus, at some primal level, an individual Kzinti, Lyran, or Carnivon is going to loathe a member of the other races and work towards the betterment of their own race at the expense of the other. The fequent civil wars are a product of the races' natural aggresive tendancies and their innate desire for racial improvement, as every side of a civil war believes they are acting for the betterment of their race.
How does this explains the WYN and pirate renegades? These are individuals who, for what ever reason, have had those deep drives fail or never form. They are left without the strong connection to racial pride and superiority (it may still be taught to them as they grow up, but it's not the instinctual drive it normally is). Without that, they are far more likely to go independent and act purely in their own interests. The loathing of the other two races is tied very closely to that sense of racial superiority, so that such individuals also don't have the primal loathing of the othe races.
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by Steve Cole (Stevecole) Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 10:16 am
Alex: Doesn't really work. Entire shiploads of Lyrans and Kzintis went into the cluster and somewhow got along, so the idea that these were rare individuals who chose to go there isn't flying.
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by Alex Chobot (Alendrel) Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 12:18 pm
Hrm, true.
Unless it's also something that can manifest on a gorup level. Once they start acting in their own interest, it "breaks" them from their greater sense of racial unity. I'm sorta envisioning a very low-level telepathic bond amongst each race, something either small enough and/or on a different enough wavelength that it can't be detected.
I had a brief idea of tying it to the effectos the WYN radiation zone, except that wuldn't explain pirates and the like from these races.
Ah well, just a rough idea to tossed onto the pile of "maybes" for this question [
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by Steve Cole (Stevecole) Thursday, January 17, 2002 - 12:24 pm
As one of many theories of why this happens, it could be a paragraph of an article. I don't buy it, but if we're going to do a competing theories article, that would be one of them.
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by Jonathan Lang (Dataweaver) Friday, January 18, 2002 - 1:18 am
Another could be a "there's something in the food..." line of reasoning; something about the WYN cluster affects the foodstuffs in a way vaguely similar to that colony world from the original series where spores were putting everyone into euphoria mode. A mild version of this could result in a tendency for denizens of the cluster to be more accepting of people that they'd normally despise.
Another possible theory: it's political; the Usurper made a deal with the first boatload of Lyrans to arrive, to the effect that any antagonism between the two races within the Cluster will be dealt with in the harshest possible terms. It turns out that the hatred was cultural in its source, so after a generation or so of "we're in the same boat, so we'd better learn to get along", they learned to get along.
Yet another possible theory: the Organians have taken up residency in the Cluster.
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by Richard Wells (Rwwells) Friday, January 18, 2002 - 2:55 am
Possible answers for the mystery would be very helpful. I find it extremely difficult to portray a character if crucial motivation are kept secret.
Other related issues that should be covered are:
How do Lyrans and Kzintis negotiate treaties?
What is life like on a captured planet? Can the conqueror walk through an occupied city without the entire population attempting to dismember him?
How much of the depiction is actually comic exaggeration versus how serious the innate hostility is?
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by Gary Plana (Garyplana) Friday, January 18, 2002 - 3:16 pm
I have this horrible image in my mind that I can't get rid of:
WEST SIDE STORY with Kzinti and Lyrans.
The problem isn't with the acting or plot, it's the singing.
Rowwwlllllll on a fence at 3AM ...
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by Jonathan McDermott (Caraig) Friday, January 18, 2002 - 3:32 pm
o/~ When you're a Kzin, you're a Kzin.... o/~
o/~ Meowria.... o/~
Er... sorry... reporting to the agonizer booth as directed. Do I get some time off for good behavior? How about if I scream in pain really loud?
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by Steve Cole (Stevecole) Friday, January 18, 2002 - 3:51 pm
It won't work. Cats cannot snap their fingers.
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by Jonathan McDermott (Caraig) Friday, January 18, 2002 - 6:02 pm
No? Curses! So much for the next Federation Theater Troupe smash hit....
Well, at the very least, I've gotten out of booth-time. =D Right? Right...? Uh... right, guys?
ObOnTopicRef: I agree, that a description of how the Lyrans and Kzinti deal with captured planets would be important. Do Lyran planets become hunting grounds for Kzin nobles? There's presumably a lot of hatred there, but would either side engage in pogroms? or would that just so completely enrage the other side that they'd not want to risk it?
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by Ken Humpherys (Pmthecat) Monday, January 21, 2002 - 1:28 am
Here is my view of the situation. The hatred is social/political. The description of Lyran society I've read in the C and R moduals reminds me alot of feudal Japan with emporer = shogun. Now there are some differences, but that is a good referance point. Kzinti on the other hand reminded me of pre-Revolution China with an Emporer and warlords/nobles. Both seem to share similar world views and religions but hate each other's guts.
To see an example of how Lyrans would treat Kzinti, and vice versa, just look at the WWII Japanese invasion of China. The Japanese came in and would wipe out entire villages. So yes, I do think there would be pogroms. The hatred is so strong, that today, Chinese businessmen refuse to do business in the japanese langauge. And, the Japanees refuse to do business in Chinese. So both learn English just to talk with one annother. (I know this because my parents are currently teaching english in China)
Actually the most probable stablizing force in the WYN cluster are the Orion pirates. I see both Kzinti and Lyran ex-patriots learning the Orion native tounge just to talk with one another. Truces between the two empires would have been fought out on the battle-field.
One side would come to the "border" and declares his grevance as he shoots up the enemy ship(s) nearby. The winner of the engagement (if any) would then delclare the redress required. You wouldn't take too much at once unless you had a major fleet backing you up and he had none. This kind of "jousting" would be happening all the time inside both empires between nobles. Only when a major offense (frex: killing the crown prince) would an all out war happen.
Strangly enough, draws would happen alot. Single ships would engage, both would be reinforced so both would withdraw to prevent someone else from getting the honor for a "rescue". Small duels would happen often but be inconclusive. The Lyran/Kzinti border would be moving back and forth continually in small, one system fights.
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