Archive through December 09, 2003
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Archive through December 09, 2003
Um, I doubt all these money calculations are really needed. Dale, get back in the lab.
Dale, I think David L is talking in 2003 AD dollar equivalents (or whatever the reference that GURPS uses is).
Alan, if you go back, David L, is assuming that his listed salary is (twice--overhead you know) the average crew salary. Remember that 25% of an APT's crew is security personnel--I don't see them as being highly paid so they should balance out the extra engineer or two.
It might be interesting to compare the mininmum crew sizes as well. For example, the armed freighters are a large multiple of their minimum crews while most of the standard freighters are at maybe twice the minimum.
Given the lack of use of automation seen in most warships (at least in terms of weapons--see the CL article on the Klingon phaser control room), it may be that there is a significant number of moderately priced crew members...
Dale, you're taking the money amounts just a little bit too literally. GURPS uses the dollar sign to indicate money in general. It doesn't necessarily mean real dollars, it could be credits, drachmas, or grozits depending on your campaign.
All it has to be is internally consistant within the SFU Universe. It doesn't need to be (and as you pointed out, probably isn't) tied to 2003 currency plus inflation etc.
David Kass:
I don't know. The "average" crew salary argument only works if all the listed ships have comparable skill set mixes and I still don't think that's likely. For example, if a tramp freighter can't dash (which Ken Humphries message from 04:51 PM on 03 December seems to confirm)then they may be able to get away with generally less experienced (lower payed) engineers than some APT that uses dash speed very frequently for high priority shipments. For all I know, moving at dash speed may also require a more experienced navigator.
Regarding security personnel, I read a newspaper story three or four years ago about some shipping companies that had been victimized by piracy in the seas around Malasia and Indonesia hiring ex-British Army Gurkhas as security for their ships. I seem to remember that the story discussed their salary and it was fairly impressive. No doubt the company was paying top dollar partly for their skills and partly for their reputations. (If you were a pirate and knew that ships of the XYZ line frequently had armed guards (most freighters don't) and moreover knew that the guards were Gurkhas, might you not at least consider not going after XYZ's ships?)
Ah. For some reason I had it in my mind that money in sci-fi campaigns was referenced (in terms of purchasing power) to late the eighties/early nineties USD. Now that I have gotten home and looked over my GURPS books, I see that's just not true. That'll teach me for typing without my source material present. Still, for what it's worth...I think 100-200EP GDP for a Major world isn't too far out of the question. (Ducks and returns to lurker status in this topic.)
Alan, part of what we are trying to work out is a set of figures that make dash possible, but almost never used (remember that the star navys are able to support about 1 in 20 ships useing dash at any time (if that high a percentage)
no normal ship should routinly be useing dash (the only exception would be a fedex type service who's primary buisness is speed, gee we have a ship that exactly matches that don't we 
)
Dale, in F&E a major planet produces 5EP/6 months (this isn't the GDP, it's the amount available to the military out of the GDP) so your guess is probably a little high, it's probably more like 50-100/yr (so the F&E income is 10-20% of the GDP, enough to ruin the economy after 5-7 years, and remember this isn't all of the taxes, only the amount that can be spent directly by the military)
Alan, yes there is error in the calculations based on the cost of the different types of crewmembers and the different mixes that they would have, my initial figure of $2k/month was based on a lawsuit I found via google where the chief engineer of a freighter was sueing the company for back pay (plus bonus, etc) this would work out to $24K/year and I am useing $50K/year to try to err on the high side since I am having this include routine maintinance.
if you are tracking sources of errors consider that weaponry will require more maintinance then cargo holds and be more expensive to begin with, the charts don't take this into account, they are just a first approximation to try and find figures that make it possible to
1. pay off the ship in an acceptable timeframe
2. make a profit
3. pay the crew
4, be more economical to operate at normal speed then at dash speed
5. avoid being so expensive that it's better to replicate then to ship.
I'd like to point out that the F&E EP available for the things available through F&E (units of some form or another) would hardly be the total spending by the military.
Before the Navy builds ships, buys missles and does reaserch it has a raw budget of logistics and supplys, payroll and whatever. Then there is stuff like Emergency aid and grants to planets for forming deals and/or as part of treaties. This could be the larger part of the budget not accounted for in F&E.
=========================
As far a Dash speed is concerned, like I said before, there could be inherent dangers with that. Asside from standing out with a brighter warp signature and attracting pirates, the risk of breaking down and not being able to defend aginst pirate attack would be a good reason to not use dash speed.
A military ship is at far less risk. If it's engines break down there is any number of good solutions to repair them (having good supply for such things, better supply than a freighter would have) and can still defend it's self well having lots of weapons (compaired to a freighter).
The Fed Express can well be an exception being built with extrordanarally stable engines made for long term high speeds. But everything about the ship is built for that purpose so it is an anomoly.
So, freighters may not use dash warp not so much as it is more expensive per trip but that the engines weren't designed for it and the risk of losing everything is too great (perhaps in the 50% range). A freighter flies along at top speed sending out a bright warp signature that only a freighter would put out at those speeds(because it's little engines are working so hard to make speed that military ships cruise at) so the pirates just watch and wait. The freighter breaks down and the pirates swoop in for a free lunch.
Dash warp is'nt used because everybody knows you are in a hurry for something (if you're a freighter it's because you have something very valuable). Even millitary ships don't use it because it attracts attention. It wouldn't suprise me to learn that every time a Fed cruiser uses dash warp the Romulans, Klingons, three Cartels and the ISC know about it.
=========================
"Admiral, something is going on is sector 2315."
"What makes you think so?"
"We have reports of five Federations ships from five different sectors making way at dash warp speeds on vectors that all point to Sector 2315."
"Very well, send squadron...hmmm...War Squadron T15 and have their scout report it's findings."
=======================
Dash warp is non-discrete.
Loren, you may be right about the visability issue, but the risk of breakdown would be a significant change to the existing data (not saying that it can't be true, just that it's a change)
as for the visability problem, unless it's also more expensive to use dash speed everyone would do it (if the cost is the same, but you get there much faster you have more flexibility to react to changing conditions) so we still need to make sure that the numbers work out so that dash is more expensive
David Lang:
Right, a Major world has about a 5 EP expediture per year in peacetime for military uses. Well, at least. Yes, this is a minimum as there are other monies for research and logistics that are not covered. Now, the CIA World Factbook has US military expeditures for fiscal year 1999 (a good example of a peacetime economy) at 3.2% of the total American GDP. Applying this to a Major world gives a total GDP of about 150 EPs. Admittedly, this is one extreme end of the spectrum as the DPRK spent 33.9% of its GDP on its military in FY02, which is much more than the factor of two that F&E has between a peacetime and wartime economy.
Thinks for a moment...: Of course, you could construct a conspiracy where every empire's peacetime economy has majors producing 5 EP/year in military spending but where everyone's % of total GDP is different. Federation majors may produce 150-200 EP/year total, while a Klingon major might only be 50-60 EP/year (closer to Israel's %). Such an idea has no purpose in a economy of intersteller shipping topic, but it might be worth something later on.
David Lang: Ya, I see what you mean. More expensive is a natural assumption and part of that expense is probably due to the stress on engine parts (and perhaps hull parts too, depending on the unit type). You all have established that longer maintenance is required after a dash warp trip. The risk a freighter faces (in what I propose) would be a break down of a minor type but requiring a full stop for 20 minutes to 2 hours; more or less. In deep space, though, this is an eternity when pirates are about. So I'm not suggesting that they face a major break down requiring a tow or anything but in their position it is a high risk due to additional factors. A convoy would be even harder to maintain dash speed due to the possibility of a single freighter needing to stop to fix a problem and being left behind and to stop the entire convoy every time would defeat the purpose of using dash speed.
Military units don't use dash warp as a matter of doctrine, especially near enemy borders but not with in borders either as spies can more easily report movements.
To address the "everybody uses dash speed" possibility I would say that yes, there is additional cost and wear to the ship there is that bright energy signature to deal with too. If that bright energy signature gives more info out to longer ranges about the size and type of ship then there is good reason not to use Dash as a normal thing.
As such, this could work to the Federation Express's advantage. Everyone scanning one moving at Dash speed knows what it is and doesn't bother to try and catch it. They know it wont likely break down and its cargo isn't likely worth the effort (though the cargo is probably very valuable there is much of it). There would be, of course, exceptions such as a Pirate or Enemy Raider that just happened to be is perfect position to force it to Tactical.
Oh ya, I was thinking too. At dash speeds a ship can approach secure areas awful fast. Perhaps faster than the various Governments are comfortable with. Therefore, to legally use Dash Warp you must file a specific flight plan and obtain a legal permit. This is an added frustration and so dash warp isn't used except in more rare cases when a permit is pre-granted (because is suites government plans). One example would be the FedEx and Military Ships would be exempt (but must provide adequate reasoning in the after action report).
So, it could amount to there being a Galactic speed limit that can be rescinded via permit.
These obstacles plus the added expense would be reason enough to minimize the use of Dash Warp particularly in the case of civilian units. There is less need to pin down an exact figure which seems very difficult because every ship would have different operating expenses/patterns. Even between freighters. Freighter A might be 58 years old with overhauled engines while freighter B might be brand new (and could either run better of worse than A). One ship might have a retired Starfleet Engineer while freighter C has a guy with a Black and Decker How To manual.
Oooops, way too long. :: END TRANSMITION::
dash speed is limited near planets, for pure self defense reasons, even noremal high warp is limited near planets (1 hour of normal warp can be covered in a second or so at high warp, less then that at dash so anyone comeing at high speed had better slow down or the automated defense systems will nail them)
however if you go back to my example of the pickup truck cross country trip, being faster could make the shipping costs MUCH cheaper, and if it was cheaper the permits to do so would be arranged (if nothing else the freighters run by the military would run at dash speed, they are trusted well enough and if the military could have one freighter w/crew do the work of several they would)
I really don't like the random breakdown approach to the problem, F&E has dash speed be expensive, but within the constraints of that expense it's routinly used so adding something so that makes it dangerous so that we can use that danger to limit you really causes problems.
remember for the freighters and armed freighters we can easily use cost to justify the reason to not use dash speed.
where we are having problems is with the ships that have fill capability engines, the APT, FT, and to a lesser extent the FDX (enough speed can justify a high cost for a small amount of cargo, but the APT anf FT carry to much cargo)
your breakdown explinations would help us in the area that we really don't need help in and they still don't help us with the problem areas
keep trying however (don't let me stop you ) but keep in mind what the problem areas are
All I'm trying to set forth is that instead of pinning exact figures, additional hindrances can make use of dash speeds more difficult to employ and relieve the burden of exact figures that can barely fit a few examples. Even with eh APT and FT there is likely a wide verity of conditions.
However, I must say that I agree that Dash Speed MUST cost more, not just because it has already been laid out that way but because the other reasons aren't enough. But additional expense may not be enough either. Some ships might be more capable than others. Private modifications might make use of dash warp reasonable if the business supports it. The obstacles I presented were to be in addition to additional operating costs (in maintenance and fuel).
That way, no matter what the condition of the ship there is still limitations in check. The permit idea allows for arbitrary control. Dash Speeds becomes unusual no matter the technology or circumstances.
Re. Defensive systems: Yes, high warp (and default dash warp) is limited around systems but that doesn't mean that ships running around at dash warp as a common thing isn't a problem and possible security threat. One ship approaching at Warp9 is going to be handled easily. But if any and all ships are then there is a real problem. Consider a freighter approaching at dash speed sending out a distress signal. "Please help, our engines are on overload. We can get them shut down. Mayday, mayday!" The freighter is not on a direct approach so every one is concerned. As the path reaches it's closest point suddenly the freighter turns and is upon the system in a blink of an eye. It's a SSF.
I know this is reaching a bit but out of all the possible circumstances on all the planets with unregulated use of such speeds this or some variation could happen. Then what is the government to do? Attack innocent freighters because the captain is drunk or what ever?
I forgot to mention that even a fine military cruiser might encounter such breakdowns. In a mad dash across the Federation there could be the need to stop many times but just a mater of minutes and a military ship has advanced protocols for such times and a good supply of spare parts. Also, it is hardly defenseless. Not good game for pirates. So these short shutdowns are more a matter of routine but only on long dashes. This could be part of what makes X-ships generally faster. They can go for longer periods of dash speed than other ships (even Fast Ships though there isn't a level where this could be reflected. F&E isn't fine tuned enough to show the difference and SFB has really nothing to do with dash speeds. GPD would only need a short note.)
I think Dash Speeds should be universally regulated and permits must be obtained from the local government (Fed permits would not be accepted in the Klingon empire, etc).
Also, dash speed permits would be different for various ships as dash speed for some is normal high warp speed for others. And it fits; an APT or FT couldn't be as devastating as a Freighter could be so higher speeds are acceptable. Other large ships (non-freighters) are military so they pose less threat.
Mercenary ships might be out and out prohibited from dash speed except as part of a official military operation.
Pirates would never use dash speed except for very short bursts to pounce and nab a victim.
One more thing, if dash speed in regulated the use of dash speed could be used for counter intelligence. A ship dashing to one area might draw attention away from another (which is approached by cruise speed ships quietly). This because officially no one uses dash unless it's really important so there must be something really major at the destination, right? Riiiight. **wink**
Of course, that may really be the actual case.
Yikes, another long one. I get carried away.
I think therefore I post.
Loren: in your last post, you said "[Dash Speed] permits must be obtained from the local government" and then later "Pirates would never use dash speed except for very short bursts to pounce and nab a victim."
Um ... I notice you posted this at 1:30am. Do you want me to point out the obvious problem pirates might have in getting permits, or would you just like to rethink this post after you wake up?
This proposal is in addition to the natural added costs of traveling at dash warp that all ships incur.
Civilian Travel and the Flight Plan
Civilian ships typically must file a flight plan before every voyage (in all Nations). These are typically accepted as a matter of routine and are often filed electronically over sub-space communications. This is more a matter of safety so that if a ship doesn't arrive on time the authorities know something is wrong and know where to look.
Only in cases where a plan enters a quarantine area or a known danger zone (a war front, a monster rampage zone, storm zone etc.) is a plan scrutinized. Rejected plans can be re-approved if a legitimate reason is given for going there. 99.5% of Common Flight Plans (CFP) are filed and approved in minutes. All flight plans include a cargo and crew manifest.
Dash Warp Flight Plan (DWFP)
Civilian ships wishing to travel at dash warp MUST file a flight plan under this provision. An up-to-date maintenance approval record is a requirement (this reduces costs to the Navy by eliminating/reducing accidents and rescues of poorly maintained vessels). Captains usually choose one or a combination of pre-approved DWFPs (also a matter of safety) though a custom plan can be submitted. Custom plans are subject to further delay of up to a day but sometimes can be in as little as 4 extra hours. All DWFP's typically take most of a day to get approval. (Some races may take longer. Klingons might use this to delay a shipment further though this is not really a legal process). There is universally a fee involved with filing a DWFP that covers administration costs but may also include additional tariffs and taxes.
Deviation from a DWFP at Dash speeds can result in punishment via fine or possibly loss of the Captains operating license. (In some cases short imprisonment can also result though almost never in the Federation but more likely in other Empires such as the Klingons and Romulans).
Cross boarder DWFP's are mostly unheard of except in Contract cases with governments such as those commonly held by the Federation Express. Deviation from the pre-approved flight plans resulted in instant nullification of the contract and the ship with its cargo would be confiscated. The crew, after long interrogation might be released back to the nation of origin.
This is a near universal process though some races impose stricter regulations. Romulans and Klingons only allow pre-approved DWFP paths and Romulan DWFP's are only in deep space. Tholians do not allow any civilian dash warp travel at all, no exceptions.
Naval ships usually have a flight plan submitted to Naval Command but may only be a plan to patrol in a given sector. This is often a part of the acknowledgement of orders. Specifics of a patrol are not given (nor can they be as the nature of patrol is to react to any number of things that might happen. One never knows where specifically a patrol might take you).
Gary Plana: In California and wide awake.
I don't imagin Pirates would ever apply for permits. In this same post (or at least this thread) I mentioned that dash warp is far more "Visible" than standard warp. So pirates wouldn't use dash warp except in shorts bursts to catch their prey. They don't want to advertise their presence. The gratuitous use of dash warp speeds would invite investigation.
Loren, the example you gave is why the automated defenses would be completely unforgiving (better to loose a cruise ship once every 100 years then to loose a planetful of people to pirates) as a single P-3 •••• will destroy a DN at high warp, let alone dash speed it's easy enough to wipe out a fleet if need be
a normal ship can travel for ~16 hours at dash speed, at which time it has traveled 6 F&E hexes and has arrived at a base where it needs to spend ~8 hours on maintinance (and this maintnance requires more then just the ships crew)
the trouble with saying that it's government regulation is that there are some governments that may have something close to an exclusive lock on space travel and for them every ship would be a government ship and therefor able to get any permits that it needs. The tholians are closest to matching this historicly (altough at some points in history the definition of a Romulan Civilian Space presence was an oxymoron)
as we are working out costs that work I am figuring that they will also give us guidence on the costs of warships as well. I am sure that there is a campaign simmering in someones head where the players are going to be the pirates (or privateers) and will care about such things
The Tholians did allow FedX ships to operate within their space; SFB R1.11 in ADVANCED MISSIONS talks about a route to the Tholian Homeworld, which would be their dyson sphere. Routes also went from Fed space to Kzinti and Gorn territory, and before the General War also into Klingon and Romulan space.
David, please don't think I'm trying to detract from your work. I headed off the proposal with just that statement (in addition to additional costs). It's NOT just regulation that does it but both. Regulation gone too far isn't going to work but I imagin there would be some.
Regarding the security issue. It could be an issue it the problem became common place. That is if everyone was commonly using dash warp (which is the goal of everyone to prevent, right?) I'm saying that expense might not be enough but can be a large factor. Still, markets can adjust to pay such costs and technology can too. Expense AND regulation would keep it in check.
Once in a hundred years for destroying the freighter or cruise liner is acceptable. Tragic but eventually it is forgotten. But no government can deal with the public relations problems of it becomming more common (once a year). And that could happen if dash warp was common place. Given that market demands could adjust to meet expences and that such speeds stress ships (and thus increase accidents and costly rescues) I see regulation as a rational Government answer.
Ships at Dash Speeds could veer off to areas not allowed quickly too. Spies would travel though enemy space a high dash warp and the expense would be paid no matter what. But it would do for a spie to blatantly ignor local laws and bring attention to himself.
Regarding Tholians: Though I said "No exceptions" the FedX might be considered to be on Government Duty as the FedX is opperating under Government contract. Other than that civilian units are free to travel at high warp in Tholian space. But DWFP pemits are not granted to regular civilian units.
I covered the situation about the FedX and other races. Cross border DWFP are pre-arrainged contracts and allows the FedX free travel over borders. Joe freighter would get cut off in a big hurry if he tried to enter Klingon Space at dash speeds. The Klingons are not going to like some ones entering their space without a curtious "Hello, may I come in?" in any case.
If you want to Dash from Earth to Klinshi you would have to obtain a Fed permit to get you to the border then get another at the Klingon Border. It's possible this could be prearrainged but the Klingons would have to know and trust you and you would still be taking a risk that some Commander wont mistake you for an invader a blast you.
I wish I could keep these shorter, sorry. I posted the proposal because I wanted to log the idea and discontinue detracting from the work that was going on previously.
Actually, no. From R1.11:
"Operated by the Federation Express Company ... more reliable than government transportation ... the Federation Express ship is operated only by the Federation, but is not part of Star Fleet. It is a civilian ship."
I would consider this definitive.
Gary: I don't see your point. I accept (R1.11) completly. I'm talking from the Tholian PoV they view it as a Government operation since the FedX is operating under a contract for them. This allows them to make an exception to the "No civilians at dash warp in the Holdfast" without actually making an exception for a civilian ship.
Other ships might gain such Govermental Contracts but these, in the Holdfast, would be VERY hard to obtain. The FedX is small and poses little or no military threat. A freighter could easily be an Auxillary, SSF, or Q-ship. To allow such speedy approaches by large units would be contrary to Tholian practices.
All this per my proposal, that is.
Hey, a short one!
Loren, why would the casualty rates of liners get to something like once a year if dash warp was commonly used? note that high warp IS commonly used so you are talking about a difference of less then a second for the time the ship would take to get from the deadline to the planet (nd it's this small simply becouse high warp makes it so it only takes about a second)
Well, I'll define things as I understand them.
**We have tactical warp, when approaching a planet or when in danger this is used. Some units can't go faster. Top tactical warp (spd 31) probably stresses the engines a bit but nothing to great. The hulls can certainly handle it.
**High Warp: This doesn't necessarily mean top speed as it really refers to speeds above tactical. High warp would probably average out to normal cruise speed. For a Fed CC this would be Warp 6-7. A freighter would be less. Ships are designed to cruise for long periods with out trouble at these speeds.
**Dash Warp: Totally maxed out engine output. Engines not designed to maintain this for long periods. It is possible but there are risks that escalate with lack of quality maintenance.
If the sole reason people don't use dash warp is expense then both economics and technology would adjust to allow it because the benefits are great. I am trying to acknowledge that there are other factors in addition to expense that keep common use of Dash Speeds from happening. Of course it is not solely the speed that is the problem; a military cruisers high warp is a freighters dash speed. It’s the capability of the ship that is relevant (except for the top end of warp tech where no matter what ship you’re in its dash speed; i.e. warp 9.97).
Regulations would be put in place to keep things reasonable. Regulations AND expense then go hand in hand to keep Dash speeds uncommon and space travel safe (and reduce costs on the Navy whose must perform most if not all the rescuing).
David Lang: I'm a little confused by your question so my answer has some assumption to it. Forgive me if it doesn't fit the question you intended.
In a situation where the hundreds of thousands of civilian ships are using High Warp for normal travel you have the current level of accidents and breakdowns.
But in a situation where civilian ships are pushing their ships to the limits all the time you would have many more accidents. I used once a year as an example of "not often is still too much".
As I understand it the difference between high warp and dash speed is a big difference in time of arrival. The second part of your post, David, is difficult to decipher. Sorry, could you rephrase that?
rephrasing is no problem, let me make another try and throw out some speed numbers
| Tac warp 3.14 (SFB speed 31) | 31C |
| high warp 2.5 (shuttle) | 1000C |
| high warp 4.5 (freighter) | 5832C |
| high warp 5.5 (aux freighter) | 10648C |
| high warp 6 (EY ship) | 13824C |
| high warp 7 (ship) | 21952C |
| high warp 7.25 (fast ship) | 24389C |
| dash speed (ship) | 474552C |
| dash speed (fast) | 551368C |
High warp is a LOT faster then tac warp. the difference is much more the difference between high warp and dash warp
so to move from double the orbital distance of Pluto to the sun at tactical warp will take about two hours, traveling that same distance in about a second. at dash speed it's about 1/17 of a second
travel between star systems in completely impractical at tactical warp speeds, the ships ARE flying around at high warp speeds, which is pleanty dangerous if a ship doesn't slow when it should.