Archive through December 14, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Prime Directive RPG: NEW KINDS OF RPG PRODUCTS:
GURPS Prime Civilians:
Archive through December 14, 2003
a couple data points to cover today's discussions.
1. the cost for dash warp has been published, it's 10% of the cost of the ship per month of use or 5% of the cost of the ship for retrograde or 3% of the cost of the ship for a retreat. once something is published we have to live with it unless we can definantly state that it's not possible to make things work with those numbers. we aren't at that stage yet.
re: use of nuclear propulsion today and it's applicability to the SFB universe.
today there are so many people who are nuclear phobic that it doesn't matter if it makes economical sense or not, it's just not going to be allowed.
also if you have space travel with engines that will get you up to a reasonable fraction f lightspeed then you can destroy planets fairly easily, and adding a anti-matter warhead to the projectile just complicates things without doig much more damage.
as far as regulations go the example of truck speeds came up, but I want to point out that that's a USA only item, other countries have very different speed limits for trucks. this illistrates the problem I have with regulations, why should the ISC follow the same regulations that the rest of the alpha sector follow when they didn't even know they were there and when they find them they are considered crazy folks, why would you alter your regulations to match what the crazy folks do?
and what about the LMC or Omega folks, do they have the same regulations? what about the Tholians and the Selts?
the andros don't use dash speed, they use something in between (warp 15 which is 216,000C faster then high warp, but not as fast as dash and can be used routinly)
and what about the Xorks when they show up from the other side of the galaxy?
trying to say that all of these have similar regs just doesn't make sense to me, and I don't think anyone really wants there to be any chance that someone does use dash routinly.
Alan, a ship may be designed to be able to use dash, but not have enough supplies to do so (common in SFB senerios where one side is 'short on supplies' and not allowed to disengage by acceleration)
Loren, military units do not routinly use dash speed. they probably use it more then anyone else, but during the height of the general war the federation (with a fleet of probalby close to one thousand ships) could let 15 of them use dash speed for the entire 6 month time period routinly (and up to another 15 if they decide to invest the equivalent to 5 FF's), they could have 4-5 fleets of 12 ships use dash speed for a day to be battle reserves and rush into a battle, and many more could use a short burst of a few hours to retreat or retrograde back to a base.
note that of that entire list only the reserve fleets arrive from useing dash speed and immediatly go to work, all other use is either a tiny retreat or ends at a base.
this is limited enough that I don't think we need to say that the military ships have any more efficiant use of dash speed, the military just budgets for a certin amount of it's use.
Gary, what's the modular cutter used for? if it's in-system work then it may have a shuttle grade high-warp engine
remember that PF's have engines that produce high tactical warp speeds, but are slow and/or short ranged strategicly (and come to think of it, about the same as fighters)
There have been times in the past where civillian freighters where faster than military ships. Let us not analogize too heavily around now-think. Define how the the technology works and produce a commerce system that fits.
Regarding warp engines: Might it be possible to seperate the various features out from a more comphrensive future construction system? The ship would include only those features actually needed for the intended usage. If cargo hauled at dash speeds becomes prohibitively expensive, freighters won't use dash speed and most freighters will have warp engines that can't do dash speeds. In-system cargo haulers might only have small tactical warp engines but the various high warp (and NTW) systems useful for effective intersystem travel will be omitted.
This could also by extension permit minor races spawned in campaigns to have respectable tactical capacities while preventing development of competitive strategic movement. Or at least delay the impact of the new home grown campaign race until after the PCs do their thing.
right now we have so few engine packages that I'm not sure it makes sense to try and break them out further.
also it's not that clear how the different parts interact with each other.
for example the NTW ships go high warp 4.5, the EY ships go high warp 5.5, did the high warp drive actually change or did the addition of tactical warp capability have a synergistic effect with the existing NTW engine to boost it's speed?
also while a race could get away without dash capability, if you loose high warp capability then you are talking a VERY small race (it will be lucky to be more then a couple systems worth)
also most freighters DO have engines that won't do dash speed, and are 1/3 the speed of military rated engines so this is already in effect, we just need to juggle the numbers to show WHY it's this way.
Concerning freighters hitting planets - Has it ever been determined if a ship traveling at warp is actually "moving" from a relatavistic point of view? If it is actually stationary or moving at impulse speeds inside a moving warp bubble, and if the warp bubble can't actually hit a planet for some reason, the impact from the freighter wouldn't be nearly as bad.
David Lang: Most of what you say I agree with. Something I should have made more clear is that the Regulation I speak of is a general representation. Certainly the laws would be different from Race to Race but like so many things in SFB, some things are the nature of the beast. Players should have to deal with a broad array of specifics on somethng like regulation so I proposed that one must, in general, register a flight plan, if there is anything very unusual such as entering a restricted zone of flying at dash speed the plan will be subjuct to further review and possibly additional taxes and fees. How this actually is implemented is up to the GM. So minor guidlines like I presented would show some basic differences in the process. Xorks would probably outlaw anything fast and anything non-xork probably can't dash. Many Omega ships are slower and might no have this problem, they probably have different regs.
Regarding Freighter Dash: Sorry, I thought freighter dash was simply a freighters maximum speed and would be around Warp6 something. I see now that in F&E this would work to define it as Dash since Dash allows specific movement advantages. So many of my posts would do well to have use a term like MaxWarp (err, sounds like a Tri-Video character, huh?).
John Kasper: I would think that if a ship at warp were to colide with another object the warp field would collaps as it came into contact with the object and the ship would instantly stop. This would probably overwhelm all the ships capacity to hold together and blow it up. So a colision at warp 1 or at warp 9 would cause the same damage (which would be a lot in anycase).
That would also explain why ships in SFB cannot ram one another. If the get too close their warp fields get reduced. Like opposing magnetic fields, the more they try the more they can't. Sub-light collisions should be possible but you would have a situation similar to a dog fight that would clearly be longer than a scenario could encompus.
Anywho, not to change the subject. Clearly there must regulations on shipping and civilian space flight and all I'm saying is that it is one more brick in the wall that must be overcome and one that is less likely to adjust to market and technology advances. If it does change it would be to get worse not easier. You see, it could be the steadying force that keeps the er...triad of Limiting Factors Against Common Dash warp Use. 
I was thinking again...
I have a problem with the publish cost of Dash Warp being a percentage of the ship cost. Why would Dash use cost more for an X-CA (with more efficient engines) than a GW-CA. Or, because a Free trader has Phaser-1's instead of Phaser-3s it Dash cost is higher. The list goes on.
The Dash cost for a Fed CA, CAR, CB, BCH and CX should all be the same; increased engine efficiency making up for the minor differences in volume.
I would propose this minor change that Dash expense be based on the Basic Hull Class value with an exception for units that are modular. I.E. if a AUX-freighter is using Dash the cost would depend on if it had zero, one or two pods.
This could be the basis for the Advanced rule so as to not counter previously publish rules.
Loren:
That's an excellent point, though I don't entirely agree that X-ships necessarily have more efficient engines than standard warships. They unquestionably have more powerful engines but that doesn't always mean they are more efficient from an O&M costs standpoint. Consider that from the standpoint of O&M, propeller-driven aircraft are often much more efficient than jet aircraft. You go with the jet engines to get superior power. X-ships may have more efficient engines than standard ships, or less efficient, or about the same. I don't think we really know.
But I'm quibbling here. I agree absolutely with your larger point. Why should ugrading the weapons on a ship increase the cost of moving at dash speed? (I suppose you could say that upgrading the weapons may (depending on the specific upgrade) increase the mass of the ship. But relatively speaking, the increase in mass for adding F-torps to a Gorn cruiser and changing the G-torps to S-torps will likely be much smaller than the increase in ship cost. Basing dash speed costs on total ship costs may mork as a first-order approximation. But if we want to get into details, I think something better is needed.
Good call.
Gary, there is a mention (in the CL article on freighters?) that standard freighters with aux (or military) class engines were built. I think they even became common by the end of the GW era.
Taking posts in order ...
The Modular Courier is definitely not limited to in-system use. It is (literally) the Traveller 30-ton Modular Cutter, translated over to SFB. It is described as "the next thing larger than a heavy shuttle" but this was published before the 3x and 4x shuttles in CL. It has no Cargo boxes, but does have two NWO boxes (Annex 8H costs) which could be assigned as Cargo, and can carry a third Cargo box externally on a mech-link. All cargo boxes are 25 points. Max speed 25. BPV 18/20. YIS 130. Size Class 5, uses Interceptor rules.
I suppose it could have Aux engines as standard. The Seeker Skiff is the Traveller type-S Scout, also converted to SFB. Two cargo boxes plus two NWO, BPV 20/25, else same as MCR above. I assume that it has Aux engines as standard as one variant on the Seeker is the Security Skiff, which is used for in-system customs, police, etc. It must have Aux warp in order to catch the ships it is trying to inspect!
I saw the CL comment on regular cargo freighters with Aux-grade engines too. I have no problem with this concept (in fact I like it!) but none of these ships has been published yet so the BPV and speed is up in the air. (What would it be called? "Aux Cargo Freighter"?)
Gary:
I'm confused about why the Armed Freighter's engines are regular freighter engines and not aux-grade engines (your posting from 11 Dec at 12:52 AM). Not only are the engines more powerful, but SFB is quite specific that regular freighters cannot disengage by acceleration but Armed Freighters can. The latter in particular would seem to imply that Armed Freighters do indeed have a different grade of engine from standard freighters.
Do police forces fall into this project, too??
Garth L. Getgen
Alan: gack, you're right. Armed have the same sized engines as Aux, so they must have Aux-engines also.
I just love having the flu...not.
Garth: more or less.
Ya, I would think this would be the Prime place to publish everything about the various Police forces and maybe a bit about National Guards.
Seems pretty easy to find enough to fill a whole book, eh?
Gary: In my last post, I was not joking. Once you drop all the stupid baggage and look at the core idea, maybe it's not such a bad concept. Who knows what normal warp drive does to the fabric of space-time. Putting that mechanism into overdrive is bound to make life interesting for someone.
Loren: If you were any more eloquent, I would never be able to finish reading this board. I think that what your looking for is cogency. Be cogent, Loren. (I had to look it up the first time I heard it, too.)
It depends on how in depth you want to get on police and national guard. While you could give details on every little thing that has been decided thus far, I think the focus should go where roleplayers are going to need it. Something of structure, procedures and such, but not so much set it stone that nobody can find a loose nugget to set a story around.
RE: Police forces .... just be SVC left for vacation, he informed me that the Police Force that own/operate the Cutter fleet is not part of, in any way, shape or form, Star Fleet. He likened it to the difference between the Navy and the Coast Guard. (I did find a reason that Star Fleet might have a handful of cutters .... now if I can convince SVC to buy it.)
I haven't had a chance to discuss it with him, but I'm thinking the differences might be more drastic. Perhaps the rank structure is more akin to the NYPD: there's still a line between "enlisted" and officers, but all officers start out as "enlisted". Promotions to Sergeant and Lieutenant are based on leadership ability. A few may be selected while still cadets at Police Academy for direct comissioning, but most work their way up the ladder. At Captain, things start to get as much about politics as they are about leadership.
With that concept in mind, I was wondering if anyone might have typical rank structure for the NYPD or other large-city police force??
As far as mixing Star Fleet personnel into Police Cutter crews ... I could see that perhaps one-quarter to one-third of the enlisted crew might be "on loan" from Star Fleet, working strictly as technicians (running the Warp engines, etc, etc). There might be one Star Fleet liaison officer on a cutter -- perhaps one per every three to five boats.
Comments???
Garth L. Getgen
Why would a Star Fleet liason be needed on the boats? I would think there would be one for each precinct, and they would be at their desks in the base.
I also don't think that Starfleet personel wouuld be servinig on the CUtters. They will be needed elsewhere.
I can see retired Starfleet personel acting as the primary engineers and maybe some weapons officers or even captains of the Cutters.
I don't think Star Fleet personnel serve on cutters except for a couple of dozen each year sent for a one-year or six-month familiarization tour. I cannot imagine any reason why Star Fleet would need, want, or have any cutters. The only possible exception might be some wierd political deal where the Feds and (Klingons or Romulans) are each allowed to operate a police ship in a particularly sensitive region of the neutral zone and just might sneak a few Star fleet people into the crew "on loan". Makes a good fiction story but it's a special case.
Is the Police forces that operate the police cutters in peace time subject to war time activation such as the US Coast Guard is in the realworld subject to being activated and attached to the US Navy?
Looking at the history of the coast guard in WW2 they actually got equiped with some pretty decent escort types including reverse lend lease british designed and built corvettes and various DE clases (Everts class IIRC)...significantly more powerful than the U.S.C.G.C. Bear! (wooden hull 2 masts and used for weather reporting data collection and ice berg spotting in the North Atlantic.)
Wartime activation: IMHO, no. The fact that there is a war on means police forces are needed where they are even more than usual. Plus if they did get drafted, Star Fleet doesn't have an extra fleet full of ships to put all these guys on.
There is also the point that the geography in SFB is different than in WWII. Enemy forces could sail right up to ports like Liverpool, New York, San Francisco, etc, but in SFB, the major ports are well away from the border, you have to get past the wall of BATS, etc.
There may be a provision somewhere that police forces may be "nationalized" in times of war, but I think it more likely that that would go to the national guards first, rather like in the modern USA.
John Kasper, when I was talking about freighters hitting planets I wasn't talking about warp speed, just impulse power.
impulse is sublight, but assuming it's a respectable fraction of lightspeed it's still enough to crack a planet
Loren, why dash speed cost is based on the ship costs
well the real reason is that it's easy to do it this way
that being said, if dash speed stresses the entire ship it could cause problems in the phasers as well as the engines (for a 20th century example, think of it as a heavy vibration throughout the ship, it will damage things that have nothing to do with movement)
we already have weapons damage being explained as power surges through the ship, potentially at dash speed the variations of the power from the engines can't be regulated as well and the occasional spike gets through and damages stuff
Gary, if the modular cutter uses the interceptor rules it's pretty close to being only in-system. it may be able to used for a little more in a multi-system hex, but even assuming that it doesn't suffer from the same problems as interceptors and PF's as far as engine fouling goes it's still going to be very slow (earth->vulcan is ~6 days and they are still very close) it would take something with high warp 2.5 (i.e. shuttles) 1.6 YEARS to move a single F&E hex and most planets large enough to show up in F&E are 3-4 hexes apart
pure cargo freighters with aux engines would be called 'fast freighters'
Garth, police forces are related to the overall project, but the particular issue we are trying to hammer out at the moment is some sort of reasonable price for ships so that we can then talk about shipping costs, ticket prices, etc (and make sure that all of these numbers make sense togeather)
Garth, the local cutters may be orginized more like current police forces, some of the rank names may be the same (Sgt, Lt, Capt) but a lot of things won't be and as you say there would not be the two-tier enlisted/officer split
SVC, I can see starfleet having a fair number of cutters, it would use them in several places to substatute for a more expensive 'normal ship'
things like
familiarization cruise
training
actually let the cadets run the engines, you can afford to have a lot of cutters for the cost of a single FF, allowing more hands-on time and therefor better training
short range transportation
just like the US military has a fleet of gulfstream jets for moving things around when they don't want to send a major aircraft around, starfleet has lots of little things and people that need to move around that a cutter could do, again for far less cost then a FF
they would be primarily clustered around the major bases (where they need for these services are highest)
A Pol costs less than a FF?
Maybe for some races but the Fed should be pretty close. The F-Pol is a pretty good unit.
I don't see power surges from maxed out engines occuring in such a way as to damage other parts of the ship. Basic circut breakers would solve those problems and would be part of Dash Warp Protocal.
In any case I figured that the rule was the simple way but that's why I proposed an advanced rule.
we don't know how warp drive works (in any of it's modes, but especially dash speed) but I can think of several things that could cause use of the drive to increase maintinance costs of weaponry
it is after all called 'warp' drive, what if use of dash warp doesn't produce as even a warp field as other modes, to the point where the uneveness is enough to damage sensitive parts. if your ship has lots of expensive weaponry on it that is having little parts of them break it will cost more to run it at dash speed then if it's just carrying simple cargo (now if the cargo is also affected by dash speed and you say that 10% of the cargo gets destroyed each month that dash speed is in use you give another reason for bulk freighters to not use it, but not enough to eliminate it as much as we want to)
besides we very much do NOT want to make it cheap for a powerful warship to use dash speed (even though F&E does currently implement the same cost for a FF and BB when useing strategic movement)