Archive through December 19, 2003
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Prime Directive RPG: NEW KINDS OF RPG PRODUCTS:
GURPS Prime Civilians:
Archive through December 19, 2003
Oh, you must carry some equipment in stores. Just not everything.
A few centuries ago, when I was in the Navy, I was responsible for keeping the ship's sonar system working. During that period, I learned a lot about what categories of spares are carried aboard a destroyer-class ship, and what isn't.
(You'd be surprised what the Navy considers necessary, and more importantly what isn't. But I'm not going to discuss this further as I have no desire to inflict the same idiocy on myself again.)
[Deleted by author] question answered in another post.
It's an assembly (transmutation) situation.
ST VI brought this question up amongst the fans, why have drawers of stuff when you can just replicate it.
As Gary said, to expand a bit, it’s a question of having it when you need it. If you are in a regular patrol route where you are going to see a base or resupply point weekly, raw material to work the fabricators/replicators from is no big thing, but if you are going to be out for months, most likely they would stock as much raw material as possible AND have a good store of already made goods stored away.
Also, remember the fabricators/replicators are mechanical systems and also require power. Sure, it may be no big deal to fabricate a flob switch for engineering when one breaks, but what do you do if you are in combat and the engines are 2/3 out and the fabricator/replicators are down? 
RH
Quote:but what do you do if you are in combat and the engines are 2/3 out and the fabricator/replicators are down?
This is what I gather from published SFU material (and a little Trek):
You would have a store of vital parts. What parts there might be could be a standard store of things but would likely be somewhat modified by the Chief Engineer. They would include those parts not easilly replicated or too important to replace with replicated temps. These parts would be used to repair things enough to get them running for the current situation. After the battle, more stable repairs need to be made. The replicator would probably be used to make parts for longer lasting repairs but even these parts would be replaced the next time the ship pulled into dock. The non-scenario repairs use more manufactured parts. These are the same parts used for the original unit that is being repaired.
During combat there is not likely time to replicate parts and repairs are more jury rigs than real fixes.
For instance: "Ensign, the primary coupling is shot and is shorting out the entire assembaly. Shut down the secondary system and bring me the secondary coupling. That should hold her 'till the Captain can get us out of here. Or until she takes another hit."
Loren, my point exactly.
re: replicator limits
we know that food can be replicated (reasonably complex food) but is not as good as fresh
we know that there are some things that cannot be replicated (dilithium)
this would seem to me to indicate that there is a level of complexity that the replicators just can't get beyond.
so if you need to replicate a bolt you can do it, although if you need a super-strong bolt (specific atomic alignment) you may be out of luck.
given time and energy you can get just about anything working, but the durability may not be as good. for most things this won't matter, but some thing just don't tolorate less then perfect versions.
so while you may be able to replicate a phaser pistol, complete with your initials engraved in the butt, you probably want to replace the emitter unit with one from storage if you can (one of the reasons for having an armory, besides just not waiting for the replicators to work when under fire)
along the same lines explosives don't replicate well (minor variations cause them to either be oversensitive to shock and blow peoples hands off or they are duds)
charged power cells cannot be replicated for similar reasons (although uncharged once may be able to be done)
a character with sufficiant skill in XXX may be able to coax a replicator into producing something it normally would fail at (which is more likly to be a top quality meal then a weapon, but anything is possible under the right conditions )
if we take this approach then there are a lot of goods to ship that don't replicate well.
Sounds good.
Then there's the concept of replicator programs or templates, the computerized model that replicators work from. There may be a trade in these things as much as in actual goods. Sure, anybody who knows what to look for can find a cheeseburger program, but Aunt Patty's Famous Cheeseburger may be difficult or impossible to find as a program. Replicator specs for parts on a military ship may be treated as classified info, since they pretty much give anyone who captures the ship the ability to build that technology.
is this just a computer skill roll or is there a more appropriate skill?
also creating the templates is skill related (like photography, give two people identical equipment and tell them to take pictures of the same object and you will get very different results)
so to work a replicator you first tell the computer what you want to produce, either by pulling up a template, scanning an object (i.e. creating a template and then useing it) or with a model (think CAD/CAM design). then once the computer knows what you are producing you then actually manufacture it.
both of these steps can be improved with skilled attention, not all equipment allows for such attention (galley replicators just let you pick from a preset menu and hit the 'go' button for example)
Well, that's true until you hack into the computer of the galley replicator and change the templates...
Fun and games for academy pranks (or when you really really need that 5/8 reverse threaded bolt).
Just using a replicator doesn't require a skill roll. Making or altering a replicator template would be covered covered by Electronics Operation/TL (Replicator) skill.
I could definitely see some trade in replicator templates. I can also see it regulated, to some degree, depending on where you are -- Orion, mostly unregulated, Feds somewhat regulated depending on security classification and other factors (including the Prime Directive re selling a higher tech template to a lower-TL species.
Here is a quick and easy suggestion of a way to handle Replicator Templates.
As replicators require a template to work from, there will be a trade in replicator templates just like any other data. To determine the legality of individual templates, minus 1 from the Legality Class of the original product. Templates of items that have no Legality Class listed will have an assumed base LC of 5. If the Template is of an object that the GM decides give modifiers to the Electronics Operation/TL (Replicator) roll to create, apply those same modifiers to LC of the template.
For example, a generic starfleet uniform is LC 4, its template would be considered LC 3. An intricate designed dress uniform (difficulty -1) would be LC 2. These uniforms might come in many sizes, but most likely would need some alteration to fit perfectly.
David Lang: Pretty much what I wrote but a good sumation.
I would say Computer Skill would be the first requirement and could stand on its own but there is probably a Specialty Skill as well, Replicator Design. So, good computer Skills would allow you to run any Replicator program and would buy you a basic level of Replicator Design Skill for free. But then a character could build on his RD Skill to become a specialist.
Gary Plana:
Way back in the GPD thread I spoke of presenting a template trade for repicators. GPD didn't have the room. So naturally I agree with you!
Ken: Some templates would be industrial secrets but making some things illegal would be very hard to do. I would think that regulated things like offical uniforms could be freeely replicated but if you get caught wearing one and you're not Star Fleet then you get in trouble.
To all: Steve has given me the go ahead to write another "Why Things Work" article for MPB based on the post above. It seems prudent to have templates and such available but that probably should be part of another article by others. Please, keep on posting thoughts on the matter, of course. I would like to write something that is the best it can be and the great minds here are a valuable resource! (of course, the finnished work has to be approved and may not see the the light of day.)
Some added thoughts for the article:
Life: Cannot replicate. Not animal, plant, baterial, or virus. This is mentioned but its implications have not. Bennifits: Food is steril. No risk of contamination (though basic poisions could be such as complex protins but this is easilly controlable and detectable and very unlikely to occure).
However, this is one reason it is speculated that food doesn't taste as good. The lettuce in your fresh hand made hamburger is still living while the replicated version is not.
Some strong spices can overcome this lack of flavor and basic bulk foods (flour, starchs etc) are usually covered by other flavors so replication of these is more common. Fresh dishes sometimes are part replicated ingrediants and some fresh.
There are culinary contests through out the Galaxy for replicator food templates, judged on consistancy and taste. Some on how close they are to the real thing, others are't intended to match any real world food.
Early relicators to modern types had a template called the Replicator Ration Template (A,B,or C) or RRA (b or c). This is the basic colored cubical shape with a pleasing flavor. It is highly neutritious and requires minimal power from the replicator. Early ships typically rationed real food. An example would be one real food meal ticket per day and two to three RRCs. This put less stress on ships stores for long missions (civilian and military alike). Later eras saw a reversale of rationing to eventually seeing RRCs as a thing of the past.
Explosives: Will refer to my transporter article in MPA. Most replicators have safty interlock that wont allow such things to be replicated. One could, however, replicate all the ingredients to make an explosive.
Power packs: Yes, you could replicate a power pack. This would be a very advanced template in early years (TL10) but would be simpler in the next tech level. The pack would not be charged though it should be possible to use the replicator to charge the pack after the pack is created. However, this is VERY inefficient as it would take 50 to 100 times the energy stored in the pack to charge it via the replicator. Better to just plug it into a charger where its much closer to 1:1.
Well, you can replicate something living, but it comes out of the replicator as so much dead meat, and a medical skill roll will reveal that it was replicated (and that's why).
Many complex biologial molecules (ie drugs and medicine) come out imperfect and useless, or you'd just replicate stuff en masse one you had a sample.
Gary, right. A more specific right.
BTW: Just in case anyone is wondering I wont be presenting any hard rules or anything. If youread the last one from MPA this would be like that. More of a myth buster and a why/how article. May even be an expantion on how replicators are typically used beyond what is presented.
Alas, though, since it is for MPB (maybe) I probably shouldn't continue this topic in this thread. I invite anyone to e-mail me thoughts on the subject.
Loren, go ahead and start another topic for replicator details.
now that we have a better understanding of replicators and their limits we can go back to the discussin of ship costs.
Loren, one more replicator question.
do replicators work at the atomic or sub-atomoc level?
i.e. if you want to make a gold bar do you need to start with gold atoms or can a replicator start with lead atoms and convert them into gold in the replication process?
the reason this matters is that if you need the right types of atoms then it makes a LOT more sense to ship bulk amounts of ore around if you have to have the correct atoms to start with.
given this and the discussion above about the level of detail that can be replicated I think the article should make it clear that you need the correct atoms to start with
David Lang: very good question and one I was hoping to answer in the article. In short, some manipulation of the sub-atomic level but mostly at the atomic level.
This is part of the reason not every thing can be easily or perfectly replicated. Some things, such as materials with very strong atomic bonds require more sub-atomic manipulation than is possible at various tech levels.
Life, as it turns out, has something to do with something deep deep down at the quantum or string level (or even further down) that is as yet undiscovered. That’s why replicators cannot create life. We still don't know exactly what it is.
Quote:the reason this matters is that if you need the right types of atoms then it makes a LOT more sense to ship bulk amounts of ore around if you have to have the correct atoms to start with.
This is fabrication and requires less energy. This is the type of thing I mentioned that factories sometimes use where energy is cheep and for making things that are improved by this process. Imagine if you could make a thing out of steel with the strength of forging and the convenience of casting and no loss of temper or weak points or cracks in the grain. No dangerous presses of high temperatures. This can be achieved through Replicator fabrication. You would start with steel plate and reform it into a steel product (a car hood or armor fender or whatever).
Replication in its purest form can utilize any material but basic forms are easier to use. A gold atom could be stripped down to a carbon atom but this would require much energy. Starting material that has basic atoms in it provide the best bang for the buck, so to speak. Food stuffs generally have a different starting material than a Warp Coil 75mm Magbolt.
That’s why ships generally have two area replication and fabrication. The processes are similar but the set up is different. Either could do the job of the other but not as efficient.
Note: A Factory fabrication unit could not replicate a hamburger. This machine takes one amount of a thing and reforms it into another of the same material. So the best it could do with a hamburger is turn it into a hamburger shake (better supply a glass).
These two technologies and transporters are sub-classes of the technology of turning matter to energy and back again (MEM) with all the manipulation occurring during the energy state.
David, good point of interest. I've recorded both these posts for future reference. Thanks.
Replicators, as I understand them, are an offshoot of transporter technology. A transporter scans an object, transforms it into energy, then uses the scan as a template to convert the energy into matter in (hopefully) it's original form. A replicator, on the other hand, takes the energy and converts it into matter according to a specific template that may or may not match what it was originally. The energy used in this process may have originally been matter (either from waste recycling or from bulk matter reserved for the purpose), or perhaps it was just energy to begin with.
Lpre, replicators/transporters starting with raw ore are going to eliminate a HUGE amount of work in processing the ore, just have it re-form all the iron atoms into ingots, leaving all the other raw material where it is, then repeat for all the other materials you are interested in and when you are done the remainder can either be disposed of or broken down at the sub-atomic level.
no need to have dangerous chemicals, high temps, etc around to smelt the ore, and the resulting materials are MUCH more pure as well. yes there is a lot of cash to lay out for the equipment up front, but it would seem that the payback would be pretty fast.
Knarf, the problem with the example you give where you don't care what sort of matter you start with is that there is now no reason to do any prospecting for anything that can be replicated. feed dirt in one side and get a hamburger out the other side, all you need is the power to run the device. if you can re-arrange the sub-atomic particles well enough to do this what reason is there that you can't replicate anything you want?
it's just much easier to say that at the known tech levels (up through at least TL12, possibly higher) there is a limit to the resolution that a replicator can work on and that limits what it can replicate. as soon as this limit allows you to change one type of atom into another there are basicly no limits left.
David Lang: I agree and only meant that some sub-atomic changes can be made. I think if it were not then that would be too limiting. Some allows for everything we need in a TL10-12 replicator.
Changing atoms at will should be left to Omnipotant beings.
One idea I have about what the MEM (matter to energy to matter) process entails gets pretty deep. The short of it is this. In (one or more) current string theory(s) it is believed that the strings vibration travels a path along the various small dimentions. Perhaps the MEM system sort of taps on the strings changing their path (converts ot energy) then taps them back into being in a new place in space (transporter). A replicator simply transports them (atoms) a very small distance.
So the second step of MEM is handled like energy but is not really pure energy. Its more of a state on non-being in this universe. So, in this sense, while in a transporter beam you don't stop being you but simply held in an alternate state while transported.
One of the reasons I've heard why Dr. McCoy hated transporters was one of a philosophical nature. When you enter a transporter and get turned into energy you are technically dead. A McCoy appears on the planet below but is he the original McCoy or a new McCoy? When you are transported, does your soul go with you? Is a new soul created if the McCoy on the planet is a new McCoy?
With the above explaination the questions are answered as "No, you are still you. You are mearly moved to one (or more) of the small dimentions (5 to 12) and are represented as energy in the large dimentions (1 to 4).
Of course, this is going too far into detail but though I'd share the idea.
David Lang: BTW, I just read your article in MPA "How to get there."
Wish I had read it earlier. I don't think that anything I posted on civilian travel directly detracts from you article but still, I wish I had read it before.
Loren, yep, it's right across the page from yours that talks about transporation technology and explosives (MPB will have part two of both )
nothing you have said contradicts what was published (although wwithout any pricing info that article had to be extremely generalized)