Archive through March 19, 2004
Star Fleet Universe Discussion Board: Prime Directive RPG: NEW KINDS OF RPG PRODUCTS:
GPD Deck Plans:
Archive through March 19, 2004
I would like to see deckplans for specific sections of starships, a few generic engineering rooms, cargo holds, bridges, etc. Then mix and match them to be my ship-of-the-week.
Wouldnt there be an aweful lot of variation? Not all ships have the same size compartments (can we say "cookie cutter"?)
IIRC the Federation alone has ships with single shuttle bay, two shuttle bays, 4 shuttle bays and and 6 shuttle bays, without even considering the various carriers (are you going to have standard deck plans for the patrol and interdiction carriers?) Then you have to account for the shuttles on mech links....some of the other races are worse...
This very this has been discussed before. It back in the archives if you're interested.
Jeff, thus the term generic. A tool for GMs to use when it's "And now a firefight breaks out in INSERT RANDOM COMPARTMENT on INSERT RANDOM SHIP. Have 3 or 4 variations on each main type, maybe do them up so they can be geomorphic, and they are close enough. What Anton is asking for is, basically, a set of quick and ready scenes for action, not offical deckplans.
Base deck plans.
Let's think this through.
At one yard per one inch hex, you're doing this at 1/36th scale (roughly).
CVN Nimitz is about 5,000 feet long, and about 900 feet wide.
The gamer scale for the flight deck would be 139 feet long and 25 feet wide, approximately -- plus some extra for white space. And that's one deck out of, hmm. I think 13?
Now I'm all in favor of big ass maps for games, but even I don't have a table that big.
(Anyone know how Nimitz compares, mass wise, to a ship in the SFU? Is it bigger or smaller than a B10?)
It's certainly smaller than a BATS... 
Well, any huge type things like a base or cruiser will have the overall deckplans done in a smaller scale, with gamer scale blowups of major compartments and some generics.
Also a laminated grid with greese pencils would allow a quick mark up of any area of the small scale deck plan.
Do it like Dungeon Tiles, five small laminated maps (8" x 8") so you can draw the area and "roll" the map as the action moves or group four for a large room. Be sure to put a light grid on the deck plan to make copying it easier.
I use a piece of transparent plastic with a grid drawn indelibly on it, large enough to fit over maps.
That way, I can use the original map AND draw on it with a grease pencil etc without ruining it.
This is a question for Jeremy Gray:
Jeremy, how many people does a US surface combatant have on the "bridge" and CIC respectively?
What would their ranks and job descriptions be?
Where would they sit in relation to one another?
For example, there's the OOD, and the JOOD, officer of the deck and junior officer of the deck. There's the quartermaster, who is not the logistics person of Army usage. There are probably radar and signal processors.
I assume that weapons control and fire direction are only manned when sailing into harm's way.
Who is in charge of "ship handling" -- the helm? How is that handled? I'm assuming it ISN'T an officer using a joystick.
OK, this will be a long list. Note, this is US Navy, other navies will vary slightly. I'll start with the Bridge:
Officer of the Deck: Senior officer on watch on the bridge. An experienced junior officer, typically a Junior O3 or O2 (sometimes Warrant Officers, top-notch O1s, or Chief Petty Officers might hold this post, but this comparitively rare). Responsible to the CO for the safety of the ship - warrants the Captain's "special trust and confidence". Also responsible for the execution of the plan of the day. Subordinate to TAO in Condition III and higher ("wartime" readiness), senior officer on watch when the TAO is not on watch (Condition IV). Commands all watchstanders on the bridge.
Conning Officer: An Officer of the Deck in training. Reponsible for shiphandling - gives orders to the helm directing the use the ship's helm and engines. Usually an O1 or junior O2, but could be a Chief Petty Officer or Warrant Officer.
Helmsmen - Stands at the ships helm. This is the sailor at the wheel who actually "steers the ship". Takes his orders from the Conning Officer. Could also control the engines under "normal" steaming, but at higher readiness conditions, a Leehelmsmen will control the engines, leaving the Helmsman to focus on minding the wheel. Often a very junior enlisted (E2-E4) under normal conditions, but the ship will have a couple "Master Helmsmen" with a rank of E5 - E6.
Quartermaster of the Watch - maintains the charts and an accurate plot of the ship's position. Also manages the ship's deck log. Works for the OOD and answerable to the ship's Navigator. Rank - E4-E6.
Boatswainmate of the Watch - "Boats". Usually E-5. In charge of various other junior enlisted on the bridge. Mans the ship's 1MC (general announcing system). Assists the OOD in managing the plan of the day and maintains the cleaniness of the Bridge.
Lookouts: Usually 2-4 seaman (E2-E3) qualified to maintain a visual lookout around the ship. Posted on port and starboard bridgewings and an aft look out station. Will rotate through each station, with an extra man acting as a messenger. This helps rotate them out of the weather and keeps them alert.
Signalman: Mans the signal bridge - responsible for ship's flags and lights. E3-E5 typically.
In virtually all cases, no one "sits" on the bridge except the Captain, XO, or an embarked senior officer such as a Commodore. Some exceptions are the helmsman of FFGs, and on Aegis ships, a single Operations Specialist who mans a console on the bridge. This console, often called the "Bright Bridge" gives the OOD access to much of the information available on consoles in CIC.
Duplicate Post
The list for CIC is a lot longer. I'll try to group the watch standers by "warfare area". Note, this is the organization used on Aegis ships. Ships without a complex combat system will have fewer watchstations in CIC.
TAO - Tactical Action Officer. The senior officer on watch on the ship. Runs the ship's combat system and commands all watchstanders to "fight" the ship. Usually a senior O3 or O4.
He is assisted by the CIC Watch Officer (O1-O2) and/or Watch Supervisor (E6-E7).
The TAO has the following seperate warfare areas working for him: Air, Surface, Sub-surface, Electronic Warfare, and Strike. Each of these warfare areas is lead by a Coordinator, a junior officer or Chief Petty Officer, trained as a specialist in the particular warfare area. "Air" will have enlisted watchstanders working for him that who manage the ship's radars, control surface to air weapons, manage the ships data links, and control CAP under the ship's control. "Surface" will lead watchstanders that manage the surface contact picture, operate guns and anti-ship missiles. "Subs" recieves contacts from Sonar Control (a seperate room) and directs watchstanders who control the ships ASW aircraft and weapons. Strike watchstanders handle Tomahawk missions. Electronic Warfare handles the use of the ships EW equipment, such as the SLQ-32.
To give you an idea of how a CIC might be arranged, there is a diagram of a DDG-51 CIC on this webpage: http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/ddg-51.htm. It is the white image below the colored graphic showing the communication systems on the mast.
Starting in the top center of the diagram, you have the CO and TAO consoles. In the upper left hand corner, you have the EW stations. The lower left corner is Air Warfare. The right rear along the aft bulkhead are the sub stations. The stations on the starboard bulkhead in the lower right are surface warfare. Strike stations are located in the upper right.
Total, you'll have about 25 folks on watch in CIC at any given time.
Hope that helps. I could get in to crazy amounts of detail, but I'd be writting all night.
Was gonna drop this in the regular GPD files, but since we are talking about officers.
What is the naval equilent of a Intellegnce briefing officer? Is there one on every cruiser and above? Destroyers? I was wondering because I wanted to intergrate one into my GPD campaign.
Donovan
Potential dumb question alert:
Jeremy: I checked out the web site you posted. Nearly all of the smaller ships seem to be xxG, for guided missile (right?). At first glance, it would appear that a missile ship would run out of ammo a lot faster than one using some sort of gun. Am I missing something?
Stepping even further into foolishness - If they ever equip a ship w/ those big lasers that we hear will be here any day, what designation would they use?
Laser equipped ship - you got me. I have no idea what they would call it.
Missile ships can get depleted of ordanance if faced with heavy combat operations for a long period of time. They are all equipped with some sort of gun (and lots of ammo for it), but missiles give you two things a gun cannot - range and accuracy. That's not say that a gun can't have these qualities, but modern missiles simply give you more ability to "reach out and touch someone."
If you think of a US Navy DDG in SFB terms, a good example might be a Fed NCD. The Ph-1s give you the same type of functionality as a 5 inch gun and CIWS (close-in weapons system) - lots of shots, but shorter range and limited accuracy as range increases. The DDG has 90 VLS cells filled with SM-2s (SAMs), Tomahawks, and Vertically Launched ASROC (a rocket boosted torpedo). By comparison, the NCD has 36 spaces of drones + two sets of reloads. If you factor in some Type-IVs, the number of total missiles is pretty similar (not counting any extras the NCD might have in cargo). However, a VLS ship never reloads while in combat - its launcher IS its magazine. In both cases, the missile weapons can be shot down (with varying degrees of difficulty), but they give the ship's weapon system long range and accuracy.
If a ship depletes its ammunition (missile or otherwise), it can take on more either underway or inport, and remain forward deployed. It would take a pretty major confrontation to exhaust a DDG of weapons in a single engagement.
As for the Intel officers - all ships will usually have an officer or senior enlisted intelligence specialist while on deployment. Some are permanantly assigned, while others are assigned temporarily for the deplyment only.
Jeremy; feel free go to into insane amounts of detail.
Can you give info for other navies, in particular Turkey and China?
Having served on both an all-gun DD and on an FFG, I can answer that question: yes, ships with guns (five inch naval guns, etc -- not a 30.06) carry several hundred rounds of ammo per barrel. But missiles are more effective because a missile has a higher percentage of getting a hit than a 5 inch shell. You may end up firing many rounds of ammo at a target and get only a few hits, but every modern missile launched has an excellent chance of hitting compared to a shell.
In other words, a WWII CA versus a modern CG would be "no contest".
Jeremy's post above re "who is on the bridge" left out one point; what he said is typical of a FF/DD class ship. Larger ships with more officers and crewmen will have more senior personnel standing the watches; I doubt anyone other than a CDR or LCDR would ever stand OOD watch on a carrier, whereas a DDG might have only two or three O-4 & O-5s aboard total. A smaller ship commanded by a LT would probably have CPOs standing OOD watch exclusively.
The other watch billets shake out in a similar fashion; the helmsman on that carrier would usually be a E-4 or E-5 Quartermaster, etc etc ...
The Turkish organization is pretty similar to ours. They have adopted many practices from the US and European navies, and watch organization is one of them. As for the Chinese, I'd be taking a wild guess. The organizations are likely similar, but the specific ranks at each position are probably different is some cases.
I know that, for example, the British often have an officer standing what we would call the Quartermaster of the Watch station. In our case, it is almost always an enlistedman - E6-E4.
Gary is right, carrier positions tend to be a bit more senior. Carriers also have an additional officer on the bridge during flight ops, called the Command Duty Officer (not to be confused with Command Duty Officer in charge of a duty section while in port). The CDO underway is usually an O5 or senior O4 and represents the CO on the Bridge for dangerous evolutions. They are not always present, but will always be present if the carrier is conducting flight ops. When he is present, the OOD reports to diesctly to him.
These days, an OOD on carriers is frequently an O3. My wife stood OOD on Roosevelt during the bulk of her tour there, and I've stood the watch on Truman and Nimitz. Some O4s will also stand the watch, but if qualified O3s are plentiful, the more senior officers will serve in other capacities. This may not have been the case when Gary was serving. Carrier watch organizations are much different than surface combatants such as CGs, DDGs, and FFGs...but then again, Carriers have a tendancy to do things their own way in most cases anyway.
In addition, not every Captain will run his bridge the same way. They will often tinker with the watch organization to suite their own tastes - often putting more junior folks in positions normally reserved for seniors, eliminating, merging, or creating watches. I'd say these changes are a generally a good thing, it means the organization is willing to innovate.
LT and LCDR commands are definately a seperate case as well, as Gary points out. These days, Minesweepers and PCs fit this discription. These ships have very small crews and few officers - a PC only has 4. As Gary says, CPOs and E-6s will definately stand OOD in those cases.
BTW, Gary and I served at different times, and lots of things have changed in the Navy in the last 10 or so years (and much has stayed the same - for better or worse). If I say something that doesn't match Gary's explanation, its not that either of us are right or wrong - we have just seen things work differently.
Jeremy Gray, I sent you an e-mail RE: crew lists ... did you receive it??
Garth L. Getgen
Got it...I'll review it and get you an answer within the next couple days.
Jeremy, for a ship with 10-12 officers and 55 crewman, how would the TO go?
It's a frigate for a non-SFB SF game, massing about 5 ktons. Assume that the lessons of the USS Hopper were learned, that much of the ship has automation where it's needed.
(And if you can't answer the question, feel free to pester me for details that you need.)
For that matter, a list of "jobs" on a USN DDG would be useful. EG, what tasks does a typical crewman have.
As someone who likes to make deck plans, this is one of the coolest things I have seen. Mouse over the deck letters to see the different decks. Looks like he based this somewhat on the old MR Scott's guide to the enterprise, though I see some differences here and there. Pretty cool.
Beware, it does take a while to load if you have a slow connection.
http://www.gilsostartrekschematics.co.uk/enterpriseadeck/maindeckmenu/maindeckmenu.html#
Now that's just too cool!! thanks for posting that link, Nick.
Garth L. Getgen
I read in the archive that when deck plans were published in the past that sales were good to start with then dropped of fast.
I would be interested in deck plans for all the ships small and large and not just key areas.
Would it be better to publish them on the web in PDF format and then allow the to be purchased online and down loaded, this would save on printing cost etc. It would also allow the players to print the plans to the scale of the figures the were using. my prefrance is 15mm thae same as Traveller.
I have purchased dungeon plans this way in the past and they have being very good as I can print them off when required.
Rich.
RB: The situation is that they would sell some and then the not so cool types would pass it around and then there would be no sales at all.
That, so far is the general policy regarding electronic stuff for ADB. Basically, SVC dosn't put stuff in electronic format that he doesn't want to give away for free.
There has been talk of some exceptions for a possible E-version of the Annexes but the chances of Deck Plans going PDF is pretty small.
Let me qualify my remarks. They come from observing SVC comment on similar ideas many times. I'm not the man, however, just responding to give you a heads up on a situation that is an old subject. In the Company Policy Topic there is a thread for new commers that has some posts regarding e-Stuff.
Old timers and new commers should read it at least once.