SVC-

For writing fiction on the NG and Police forces:Can we assume that both groups reflect the level of professionalism and openness that characterize the Federation Starfleet?

Asking because the alternative would be veritable goldmine for storylines of nepotism, graft, corruption and abuse. It would also make GURPS PD travels to planets in the Federation something of a "crapshoot" depending on the powerstructure of the planet in question!!

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 04:32 pm: Edit

Well, the idea that even star fleet has consistent professionalism and a lack of nepotism and a derth of corruption is, well, an ideal. Does not always happen.

The term police means several things, but taking it to mean the Federation equivalent of the Coast Guard with POLs and FLGs, it should be about as consistent as star fleet. Local civil ground beat cops are mostly good (corruption IS illegal) but there are always going to be petty tyrants and bad cops and while it would be no more than a once a decade event for mean cops to beat a prisoner to death during interrogation (and go to prison after a fed courts busts them for civil rights), it's not a "never happens" sort of thing.

As for National Guards, well, it varies somewhat more widely. There is enough corruption, nepotism, and abuse in the US Army National Guard to keep a dozen reporters in business, although it is illegal and frankly rare. On the other hand, during peacetime, maybe a third of NG ships would fail their readiness tests (although the reports would be "gun decked" and suddenly everybody passed while those who were given a courtesy pass were told they better get better and some of them do). In SFU, many NG officers are political appointees and buddies of the commander and some of them are really awful at their jobs. I am sure that every year some NG unit is found selling government property out the back door. So is it a crapshoot? Probably not, but your GM may decide that you did happen to wander into the armory of a wholely corrupt national guard unit.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 05:08 pm: Edit

I've known a few National Guardmen in my life including a half-brother whom I never met until I was 18.

I found them to be regular folk for the most part. The higher the rank the more straight but generally tolerant to "normal" lifestyle. Most that I know partied within reason (though sometimes used illegal substances) and took possetion of occasional things like a couple servings of c-rats or a few P-38 can openers to give to their friends, etc. Nothing big but when it came to their two week deployment or when something serious happened the straightened out and became as serious about their job as they could be. When the deployment was over they dropped right back into they everyday life style, working, raising a family and enjoying the occasional (often weekly) party.

I suspect this is the average Joe that occures in many species. But then comparitivly speaking I've known very few people in my whole life to how many there are in the Army National Guard. I could be way off.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 05:15 pm: Edit

There is one state (I think it's in the old confederacy) where the commanding general is actually an elected office. Big scandal there as the general forced officers to contribute to his campaign fund and reassigned or didn't promote those who refused.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 06:59 pm: Edit

You can't really compare the US NG with the UFP NG ... some planets just don't the same concept of ethics as the core UFP worlds do.


Garth L. Getgen

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 07:23 pm: Edit

Hence the "I suspect..."

The Average NG guy's attitude would certainly be relative to his own world's ethics.

By Scott Tenhoff (Scottt) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 07:27 pm: Edit

Garth, are you hinting 'Orions'???


How could you!! /mock horror off

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 09:23 pm: Edit

General NG question (since I'm not a veteran) do the various armories/state NG units correspond to larger field units?

for example...would a NG division have all of its constituent parts in the same state? such that in the division, you might have 2 brigades which in turn have 4 regiments divided up in the same geographic area?

Just wondering if the NG in the UFP provinces would fill out its Table of Organization the same way...otherwise you might have the HQ of the division staff way out yonder in Romulan space while the 1st and 3rd companies of the 1st battalion are out watching the Klingons come across the border...

Same with the NG ships...would each Province be organized as a National Guard squadron?

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 10:15 pm: Edit

NG ground units are organized per planet, and per system. One system we were talking about in a recent story had three battalions, two on the capital and one spread all over the place.

A given colony that is sponsored by a member planet would have NG units form that planet, so it's possible that a division from Rigel might have one battalion on the Klingon border.

NG ships belong to provinces and to member planets.

By Randy O. Green (Hollywood750) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 10:16 pm: Edit

Steve: The Adjutant General in Alabama is a political appointment made by the Governor. Therefore, it can be quite political in nature, as whenever there is a change in governors, we have a new AG. (Whether they make heavy campaign contributions or not, I don't want to hazard a guess.) I don't believe they have to have a background in the Guard, but I can't think of a recent one that didn't have either an Air or Army Guard background. The current one retired in 2000 as a Major General before he was brought out of retirement by the current governor in 2003. Now in another state, they may actually be elected... maybe South Carolina?

Jeff: I don't know about the Army side, but on the Air side (the side that Rumsfield seems to be trying to kill) our Group, the 226 Combat Communications Group, has several squadrons scattered all over the southeast. It has three in the state, and one in Tennessee, Florida and one in the Virgin Islands. (We're always trying for TDY there. ;))

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Monday, May 03, 2004 - 10:52 pm: Edit

Randy O Green,

I had heard that 'Rummy' wanted to "transform" the army into a 21st century fighting force by eliminating the Heavy and obsolete tanks and APC's and replace them with "new technologies"...the gist of it that not every one in uniform feels the same way the "rummy" does!

By Randy O. Green (Hollywood750) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 01:33 am: Edit

Jeff, "The Rummy" also believes too much of the Air Force's capabilities, specifically the low density, high demand assets, lie within the Guard and Reserve. Any state that has more than one flying wing (especially if one is a "special asset, like CSAR, Refueling, or Airlift", will probably lose the extra wings back to the Air Force or have them disbanded entirely. He also wants Air Guard units that aren't located on Air Force bases relocated to Air Force bases, to keep the Air Force from having to fund "duplicate" facilities. Which sounds good at first glance, until you realize states like New York, which have no bases, would lose everything. A lot of people in the Reserves who have been fighting the GWOT won't be too happy about that. Not a good way to win the President votes if you ask me. But, that's just my opinion.

By Randy O. Green (Hollywood750) on Tuesday, May 04, 2004 - 01:40 am: Edit

I'm sorry, this needs to be moved to another topic. It has strayed (mostly by my input) from GPD:C

By William F. Hostman (Aramis) on Saturday, May 15, 2004 - 05:20 pm: Edit

So, aside from rank insignia (which according to the UFP sourcebook are standardized), each planet's "National Guard" is essentially, dirtside at least, a unique force, equipped by the planet...

That, at least, is the strong impression I got from SVC's comments above coupled with the in-prior-print PD materials...

Actually, I would assume the Fed NG system to be subject to some slightly tighter regulation than I implied...

Do the NG forces have ships of their own?

Are the POL's operated by the Marshals Service?

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 12:20 am: Edit

There are a number of unique NG ship classes. IIRC they should see print late this year in SFB Module R8 or R9, I forget.

There is a major discussion re the police ships in another GPD topic, which should answer all of your questions.

By William F. Hostman (Aramis) on Sunday, May 16, 2004 - 06:44 pm: Edit

Found it, Gary, Thx... and it doesn't answer ALL my questions in re POL's and the FMS.

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 12:28 am: Edit

So what else do you need to know? Might as well put the question(s) in that same topic so they're easy to find!

By David Lang (Dlang) on Saturday, October 23, 2004 - 08:59 pm: Edit

going back to the previous discussions about the economics of transportation in the SFB universe.

in our prior discussions we had a few limitations that seemed to be crippling us

our constrainsts were

replicated things cost 2x non-replicated things. this means that you can't spend more then 1x the items cost in transporting it between the stars or it's cheaper to replicate it.

dash speed doubles the cost of the ship for 5 years of operation but travels 6x the distance (for freighter engines) or 16x the distance (for warship engines) or 25x the distance (for EY ships)

we also have comments from SVC somthing along the lines that a visit to another star system could be an annual family vacation to something nearby, or a once-in-a-lifetime trip to the klingon border (both of these being for typical middle-class families)

dash speed is supposed to be rare, but allows the ships to cover so much more territory that it's just too cheap unless ships are extremely expensive (or extremely cheap to operate, including the pay for the crew)

and if ships are extremely expensive then it's hard for them to ship things over interstellar distances for less then the origional cost of the item (making it cheaper to replciate them, and replication is supposed to be rare)

since GPD is being re-released as GPD4e we have a chance to change these numbers.

let's re-visit the discussion and figure out what numbers work well for all of the constraints.

By F. Douglas Wall (Knarf) on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 03:39 am: Edit

I think most commercial traffic will be fairly short range. At Standard Warp speeds, trips of a hex or two take several months. While it may be profitable in some cases to pay for that kind of transport, it can get expensive and slow for very long distances. I believe that for a commodity to go two hexes or more, it will likely take several smaller hops, stopping on several worlds, perhaps changing hands dozens of times. Of course, if a commodity is very valuable, it may wind up on a dash warp or military warp ship to get it there in less time, or a standard warp ship will take the time to get it there all in one go.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 04:11 am: Edit

it doesn't matte if the item gets there in one hop or in many smaller hops to cover the same distance (if anything the many smaller hops are going to have more overhead due to changing hands and will be more expensive)

the problem is that major population centers are fairly rare in the SFB universe. while there are many tiny colonies it's not unusual for it to be 2-3 hexes to the nearest major population center (a minor planet in F&E) or the nearest military base

even the border bases are positioned 2 hexes apart

a standard freighter travels 4 hexes per year, assuming no stops along the way so running something from one base to the next nearest base is a 6 month one-way trip

if you have a crew of 20 who you have to pay at least half a year's salary to (plus the operating cost of the ship, plus profit) it can get pretty expensive to ship anything (even if you take into account that you split that cost between 25 spaces of cargo)

just about any trade is going to have to include the major population centers or bases, so you are easily talking about a year plus round trip for freighters (there are other tranports that are faster, but the bulk freighters are supposed to be extremely common)

also remember that space transportation is common enough that pirates can capture enough to survive (if not thrive), destoy some more in the process of trying to capture it, and still have enough get through for it to be worth doing in relativly unarmed hulls

with dash speed it's possible for someone to live on Vulcan and commute to earth for their daily job with less time spent in the commute then many people in LA spend on the road today, but does this happen? you have a very different game universe if things like this are common then if they are only for the ultra-rich (if even they do it)

yes a GM can decide to wing it and make up numbers, but like the numbers that were made up for GPD they will have a way of not working out if you try to scale them to other problems.

By Garth L. Getgen (Sgt_G) on Sunday, October 24, 2004 - 09:42 pm: Edit

Year back, I wrote a story and sent it to SPP for review. It needs massive changes before I dare let SVC read it. But at any rate, there are two passages that might be of use for a Cops-&-Robbers GPD book.

First, the Commander of a Police Cutter is quizing his newest Ensign:

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Commander McCray smiled. “[....] Have you been studying up on Search and Seizure procedures? And evidence admission rules?” The ensign nodded. “Good, let’s try a simple one. True case: a portable force field generator found its way from the repair depot to the black market, with all trails pointing to a pawn shop run by a known tech-smuggler and suspected drug dealer. You have a Search Warrant to search the building and in the course of looking for the generator, you open a desk drawer and there’s a kilo of ‘zap’. What do you do?”
“Simple, sir. Seize the drugs and arrest the shop owner,” Larson replied instantly.
“And what business did you have looking in that drawer, Ensign?” McCray asked sternly.
“Sir?”
“How big is the generator you’re looking for? It couldn’t possible fit in that small of a drawer, could it? Any defense attorney worth his shingle will have the ‘zap’ thrown out of court as inadmissible evidence. Care to try again?”
While the junior officer was frantically thinking, a voice came over the speaker. “Bridge, sensors. Contact, bearing one-five-five mark three, range one-seven-double-oh, designate target as Victor two-nine. Transferring data to C-I-C.”

~~~~~~~~~~

Later in the same story, McCray had Lt Drake issue a couple citations, know as "RPI" and "DSA", to a small two-man frieghter / space-truck after the inspection team found some hidden compartments, etc:


“Lieutenant Drake, cite Mr. Zoxyn for breach of flight plan and possession of class-nine contraband. Explain the fines to him. Also, write RPIs on the hidden compartments and DSAs for the [over-powered] shields and the [tweaked] engine limiter. Confiscate all the sealed cases of the Romulan ale and transport it to the evidence locker.”

[......]

Larson decided to change the subject, “Sir, what’s a RPI and a DSA?”
“Don’t they teach anything at the Academy anymore?” the captain asked rhetorically. “DSA stands for Design Specification Advisory. It’s a citation simply stating that the ship’s owner is aware that something has been modified on his vessel and he waives any claims against the manufacturer if it fails. Also, it has to be put back to design specs for the Title Transfer Inspection if the ship is sold. There’s no fine, it just goes on file.
“RPI stands for Repair and Present for Inspection. It’s like a DSA but the owner is ordered to retrofit the problem back to original design specifications and have it inspected as such. It’s normally used for any defects that cause immediate concern for the safety of the ship and crew.”
“I see,” said the Ensign. “Actually, sir, I don’t see. How’s that apply to a hidden compartment and why bother with a RPI?”
The captain sighed. “We can define just about any modifications to the ship as either a violation of structural integrity or a degradation of the reliability life support. The report goes on file, so if you happen to be the next one to lead an inspection team on that ship ...” he presented an open hand, prompting the junior officer to finish the thought.
“Uh, if I’m inspecting it ... and I see this report on file, then I should inspect to see if the repairs were done,” Larson paused to make sure his logic was right, “thus I have a legal right to open any un-repaired compartments. And any contraband I find will be admissible in court!” He finished triumphantly.
“Exactly,” McCray rewarded, “you’re getting the hang of this. Don’t worry, it’ll be a while before I have you serve a search warrant. The point of all this was to impress on you that what we do here and now will have long term effects. There are few places this is more self-evident that in the court room.”
“Yes, sir. I think I understand,” Larson said, absorbing it all.
“If you make the right choices here, your life will be easier in the long run. If not,” he paused, “well, there’s a zap-dealer walking the streets today because I opened the wrong desk drawer so long ago.” Commander McCray finished bitterly. Ensign Larson said nothing. There was nothing he could say.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And this line is from another story in the works:

Just as with Health and Safety Inspections, Star Fleet took the relatively minor regulation covering Repair and Present for Inspection tickets and turned it into a useful tool to combat smuggling and other illegal activity.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm sure that if we have real-life police and/or lawyers here, they can come up with some other ideas to include. At any rate, I'll let someone else figure out how to take the passages from my writings and turn them into GPD rules / background info.


Garth L. Getgen

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, October 25, 2004 - 04:46 pm: Edit

David L, Are you calculations taking into account the fact that a unit using dash speed must spend 1/3 of its time in maitenance (minimum)?

One easy way to "artifically" inflate the cost of dash speed use would be to massively increase the insurance premiums (ie a standard freighter annual premium includes 5 pc of dash coverage and after that the cost doubles per parsec or some such). The idea being that moving at dash speeds is signficantly more hazardous (both per operating hour and per distance traveled). This could be due to things (ion storms and the like) being more difficult to spot/avoid. This would also introduce a certain risk in doing it (I don't know what the frequency should be, maybe about the rate of accidents for small planes).

I just re-read your MPA article and the one thing that struck me was that you allowed no time for "traffic issues" (eg you assumed you could get into orbit in 7 minutes, but when leaving from a major metropolitan area, this may be closer to 30 minutes, or at the wrong time of day, an hour or more).

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 02:27 am: Edit

David K, yes I am.

in F&E a freighter can travel 2 hexes, or 12 hexes at dash speed in 6 months including all maintinance (an aux freigher moves 3/12). the dash speed is actually far faster then this, but they can only go 12 hexes per 6 months useing it

a standard warship moves 6 hexes normally or 100 hexes at dash speed, including all maintinance. the dash speed is actually about 150 hexes/6 months, but the maintinance requirements cut it back to 100 hexes

a fash ship does 7 normally and ~120 at dash

EY and 'sublight' NTW ships have the same dash speed as normal warships so for them the speedup is an even higher multiple.

if increased insurance premiums are the cause of the increased cost then we need to define what the increased risk is (or some set of players will decide to cheat the insurance company and run at dash more, or just do without insurance entirely)

as for the traffic control problem, with sufficiant computer control and tracking (and saftey overriding anti-collision autopilots) the sky is a very large place, yes you move fast, but your shuttle/ship is actually very small.

in 2004 a near miss in the air means that the airliners got within about 2 miles of each other. with human reaction speeds this is dangerously close (getting to within seconds of a collision)

with craft that do not depend on wings for lift (and therfor do not generate as much turbulance and are not as effected by turbulance) and have computers tracking things to keep them from hitting (eliminating the reaction time problem) you are not very crowded

also in the skys over the US today the airliners actually fly a very small number of paths. this is a combination of them being the shortest path between the airports, and the historic limitations of the aviation guidence equipment (which basicly boiled down to picking a radio transmitter and flying directly towards or away from it, then picking another transmitter and doing the same thing)

with GPS guidence (or better) you can fly all over the sky and remain well clear of anyone else.

as a thought excersice assume that every square inch of earth's surface was filled with heavy lift shuttles that are 10ft x 10ft. now spread these evenly between the surface and the boundry of space (328,000 ft) in 1000 ft incraments. at this point the lateral seperation between any two craft at the same altitude will be ~3280 ft (more or less, this is an interesting 3-D puzzle to define the location and altitudes of all the craft )

with the current traffic control procedures you would be absolutly right, but things don't have to remain that way.

yes even so there can be somewhat of a pileup, but given the available power it's easy and cheap enough to scatter the craft and have some of them take a slightly slower route to gain additional seperation so while I was deliberatly optimistic I would say the results in crowded airspace are more likly to be in the 10 min range then in the 30+ min range

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 02:39 pm: Edit

David Lang: I seem to recall that when you did the warp speed chart, you also wrote a short explanatory article.

Do you still have it? Due to the never-ending questions, I'm considering including it in GPD4.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 03:12 pm: Edit

I probably don't still have it, but can re-write it if needed (let me know what needs to be in it)

unfortunantly I think that most of the never-ending questiosn are from people who don't have GPD so I'm not sure how much it will help.