It's actually more than a handwave but rooted real scientific possability. I consulted a nuclear physisist who works in sub-atomic particles for help...he's on the by line as consulting PSG.

I'm pretty proud that I found the basic solution myself (though I would not have without his help). He verified it as scientifically plausable (as one can get with this sort of thing anyway).

By Gary Plana (Garyplana) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 06:00 pm: Edit

David, when and where did I say food was simple? By any definition it is a complex organic.

If I had mentioned food, it would be in the context that minute variations can easily be detected by the taste buds of the consumer, which can make the food unpalatable if there are a lot of errors. You can reduce the likelyhood of induced errors by restricting yourself to making simple, basic food, which is essentially what "replicator rations" are.

As far as the carcasses that Kzinti and Lyrans eat, not to mention the occasional plate of Klingon gagh, it is more an issue of perceived vs true flavor -- in terms of hunting down your own dinner, vs having someone hand you a carcass on a plate.

By David Kass (Dkass) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 06:20 pm: Edit

Gary, I started the conversation with food, so I assumed you were continuing in the same vein and implying it was simpler than the phaser. Sorry for the confusion.

If there is a significant (or even generally noticeable) risk of taste variations in food, it would regularly result in poisonous (and/or toxic) stuff being called food. A lot of poisons are quite similar (chemically) to foods. It also doesn't take much for an atom to go from necessary to toxic...

I could see there being a difference between basic food items and prepared meals (eg a hamburger as opposed to a bun(?) + cooked patty + slice of cheese).

On a different tangent does a replicator control the temperature of the item produced?

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 07:26 pm: Edit

David Kass: Yes, the temperature is handled by the Replicator.

Note that food generally comes from Replicators specifically designed to produce food although any good replicator is capable given proper programming and accounting for the differences.

All replicators scan the final product for accuracy and food for poisons. You will never be poisoned by food from a Replicator. The sort of breakdown that would occure in food over time would be more like oil going rancid, etc. But it is never an issue because it is typically consumed with in minutes (and at least hours).

Day Old Replicated food, yuk. Three day old replicated food might not even look like food. Food fresh out of the replicator...Mmmm! (well, sort of...if your really hungry.)

By Ian Whitchurch (Ian_Whitchurch) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 08:04 pm: Edit

Actually, 1 EBPV = $1m works darn well.

Using the costs out of GT, plus some handwaves, here are what some ships crunched out as ...

Shields cost $200k per box for size 4, $300k per box for size 3 and $400k per box for size 2.

All number in megacredits

F-AS (hydran)

8 warp 1.5 = 12m
1 Imp @ 0.3
1 btty @ 0.2
1 bridge @ 3.1
1 emer @ 2.3 (cockpit bridge)
1 tran @ 0.3 (handwave)
1 shuttle @ 0.75 (10 dton launch, plus MCr 3.6 for the launch)
4 hull @ 0.01
1 ph-2 @ 0.7 (same as TL12 turret laser)
1 fusion @ 1.4 (handwave)

60 shields @ 0.2/box = MCr12

Total cost MCr 34.75, as compared to EBPV 36

FA-L (hydran)

16 warp = $24m
2 imp = 0.6
1 apr = 0.2
1 btty = 0.2
1 bridge = 3.1
2x aux/emer = 4.6
1 tran = 0.3
1 shuttle = 4.35 (inc 10 dton launch)
1 trac = 0.5 (handwave)
6 hull = 0.1
3x ph-2 = 2.1
2 fusion = 2.8
1 gatling = 1.4 (handwave)
90 size 3 shields = 27

$71.1m, compared to EBPV 75


Just for laughs, here are 2 mil ships under the same rules

Hunter (hydran fusion frigate)

12 warp = $18
2 Imp = 0.6
1 apr = 0.2
1 btty = 0.4
1 bridge = 3.1
1 aux = 2.3
1 tran = 0.3
1 probe = 0.2 (handwave)
1 shuttle = 4.35
1 trac = 0.5 (handwave)
2 lab = 2

9 hull = 0.2
Ph-G = 1.4
3xph-2 = 2.1
2x fusion = 2.8

73 shields = 14.6

Total = $53.05, compared to 48 BPV


Cheetah (lyran frigate)

12 warp = $18
2 Imp = 0.6
1 apr = 0.2
1 btty = 0.2
2 bridge = 6.2
2 aux = 4.6
1 tran = 0.3
1 probe = 0.2 (handwave)
2 shuttle = 8.7
2 trac = 1 (handwave)
1 lab = 1

8 hull = 0.2
2x Dsr15 = 1 (handwave, but see what Orions buy em for)
2x ph-2 = 1.4
2x ph-3 = 0.7 (handwave)
1 ESG = 2 (handwave)
66 shields = 13.2

Total = $59.5, compared to 63 BPV


Looks like it works to me ...

Ian Whitchurch

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 08:07 pm: Edit

Ian, there are only a few different speeds for ships

small, large, and oversized freighters all are the same speed, along with tramp steamers (4 F&E hexes/year)

armed freighters are 50% faster (6 F&E hexes/year)

other ships (armed priority transports, free trader) are twice as fast as armed freighters (12 F&E hexes/year)

the FedEx is a fast ship and a little faster still (14 hexes/year)

I'd have to hunt back through the archives here, but there were a series of tables here that listed the crew and cargo capacity of the various ships, along with the numbers that we were generating at the time for costs

$1m / EPV actually ended up looking like a good match, as long as you included a reasonable cargo in the SFB published values.

the large ore freighter isn't very effective becouse you useually don't have enough cargo going to one place to fill it (and at it's slow speed, it's not going to be carrying cargo for multiple hops)

By Ian Whitchurch (Ian_Whitchurch) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 08:16 pm: Edit

David,

If CivWarp engines (4 hex speed, no disengage by acceleration) are cheaper by, say, 50%, then I think we can shoehorn in a F-S for circa $12m.

Ditto for CivShields ...

I'm not so sure about not being able to fill a large ore freighter. It's pretty easy for a mine to extract lots of ore ... but generally a F-OL will be on a dedicated route, and it's easier to just think of them as part of the mine's capital expenditure cost.

But, basically if we use KISS and call an EBPV point as $1m, then we can work the other numbers out, and get us somewhere interesting.

Like, maybe, using some of this to design some stories to turn into scenarios.

Ian Whitchurch

By David Lang (Dlang) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 09:01 pm: Edit

each class of engines will be MUCH more expensive then the class below it to reflect it's additional speed

I think you are on the right track

By Martin Read (Amethyst_Cat) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 09:07 pm: Edit

As far as food going bad in a day? Vegetables sure don't; they often spend longer than that getting to the supermarket after being picked, and plenty of them get put out for sale at room temperature. Dry foods last years as long as they're kept dry, and canned food does the same.
Basically, I find the "food can be replicated more easily than pharmaceuticals" utterly unconvincing. Consider bovine spongiform encephalopathy (which basically starts as an error in a single molecule of one particular protein) to understand why. Replicating a drug consists of producing a bunch of identical molecules. Replicating food requires you to produce lots of different molecules in rather elaborate patterns. Guess which I'd put more faith in the ability of a replicator to achieve.

By Ian Whitchurch (Ian_Whitchurch) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 09:51 pm: Edit

OK, quick scenario.

Our Heroes are in their tacky Free Trader, with a special cargo of high-quality booze - about a crate full of some seriously valuable hootch.

You guessed it, someone pulled a Replicator trick at some point in the supply chain ... let them discover this when one of em sneaks a bottle off for some sort of celebration.

OK, so they have at least one bottle of badly degraded Replicatored hootch, that rather than being worth, say, a months salary a bottle is now worth slightly less than a used light globe.

Our Heroes can either

(a) wear a horrifying capital loss
(b) try and get away with it
(c) try and re-replicate the booze in the bottles so the clock starts again
(d) think of something else.

Ian Whitchurch

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Monday, December 06, 2004 - 11:48 pm: Edit

(A) is not doable for a good business man.

(B) Only if the people they are selling it to are even dumber that they are and don't scan the goods before buying. (To be fair you probably didn't know the replicated goods can be identified with a good scan. There is some other factors you learn about from the article but hooch should last a bit longer than other types of food. Figure a fraction of it's normal shelf life when well packaged. Say you can keep meat refrigerated for a week tops. Replicated meat would be 1/4 that time perhaps. Alchoholic beverages last a long time but their normal preservative won't help replicator breakdown but still figure months to a year before it just not paletable. A change in tast occuring in 30 days. There are several factors in how it was made involved that will be clear when (if) you read the article.)

(C) That would lead the buyers back to their replicator.

(D) Ya, this. Maybe build a still? They probably shoudl go back and beat the hell out of the jerks they bought it from. Maybe tie the guy down on top of the phaser port and hold a remote control while demanding "Show me the money!!!"

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 12:26 am: Edit

A still!?!?

Question...

If one replicated potatos, and distilled the potatos to make schnapps (and alcoholic distilled beverage) would it last "only" as long as the shelf life of the replicated potatos? or would it (since it is chemically changing the raw material) be as long lasting (bottled) as conventionally grown potato schnapps (distilled and bottled)?

or what about table salt? could you replicate salt, use it to pickle or preserve foods... would the "shelf life" of the pickled beets, fish or cucumbers spoil with in 30 days? or would the salt be of similar effectiveness to salt mined or distilled from salt water (as in sea salt)...

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 01:13 am: Edit

Basic elements and such are simply rearanged atomic structures with little sub-atomic manipulation. Salt from a Replicator is simply Sodium Cloride so it would last indefinately I guess.

A far as distilling a Replicated potato your hooch won't be as tasty but will end up the real thing. Just as the fat and muscle are that your body builds from replicated food.


Again, I must qualify my statements as pertaining to my article. It was requested and appears it will be printed but until it is it's not official.

However, all your questions do lend support that an article of it's nature is indeed wanted and needed. Thanks. I'm pretty sure you all will enjoy it.

By Richard Wells (Rwwells) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 01:38 am: Edit

I doubt replicated food material would decompose quickly. A ship on a long cruise would probably have replace much of the initial "real" food stores with replicated replacements. If the ship suffers heavy enough damage to prevent later replication, rapid degradation of the food stores could prove fatal.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 02:12 am: Edit

Richard, I would expect that most of the supplies a ship uses on a long cruise are replicated on demand, with only a small stash of preserved real food on hand for emergancies.

yes this is a problem is all your replicators go out at once and can't be repaired, but that's a relativly low probability and the space you save by not storing all that food drasticly improves your capabilities in other areas

By Jeff Wile (Jswile) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:44 am: Edit

Would star ships have supplies of emergency rations (MRE's or 'K' and 'C' ration equivalents?)

I could see the ease and convenience of replicator foods be prefered over the limited choices of preserved "iron rations" (to use a D&D term), but in the Real World life boats are stocked with medical and food supplies for use inan emergency should the ship sink or some such.

I just don't see having the crews replenish the emergency rations every other day week or month in the event that replicated foods spoil rapidly.

When I was in high school (more years ago than I want to admit!) the bank I worked in (as a stockboy) was designated an emergency civil defense shelter. Fine as far as that goes, but the supplies consisted of a couple of pallets of dried foods (crackers, dehydrated veggies, grains etc) limited medical supplies (including blankets) and a pallet of water cans...with plastic liners that the instructions (helpfully printed on the side of the cans) said would be found inside the aforementioned cans.

The only running water in the basement was a 1/2 cold water line in an unaccessible area of the basement (it was like a rabit warren down there, and after 75 years of "gradual expansion" buying the building next door on the city block and building a door to the existing basement area, there were 7 chambers at the time I worked there) with very little water preasure.

One of the "special projects" I got assigned was to "update the emergency plans" (this was in 1977)... the stuff had been sitting there since 1964 (and for all I know, is still there!) and I calculated (using a similar sized can and a stop watch) it would take 20+ hours to fill all of the water cans (the plumbing in that area dated back to the 1920's) using the existing plumbing.

my boss didnt want to spend money to improve the plumbing in an area that was never expected to be used, (I don't think he understood the concept of emergency preparations or planning!) so The instructions said to use a 2 wheel dolly, and fill the cans in the janitors room and move them to the shelter as filled. (1 person "busting his butt" could do the job in an hour, it was a 3/4 inch water line and excellant water preasure. moving the pallet of filled water cans would take longer than just filling them with water.)

Point is, in an emergency, one may not have 20 hours to re-eplicate all of the emergency rations one might need in an emergency.

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 11:58 am: Edit

Virtually all of the emergency rations were discarded long ago. I worked as an engineer for a gas company during 1976-1982 and sometime during that time they hauled all of the emergency rations out of the basement, stacked them by the door, and offered them to any employee (and strangers on the street) who was willing to carry them off. This was done on government orders. I took a couple of cases and ate them, and one guy who an entire pallet of them and threw the food away and went into business making mailboxes out of the cans.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 12:43 pm: Edit

I was going to write an article on Emegency Operations. This was to explain how Emerency life support worked; If you don't supply LIfe Support then your crew dies but once crippled (or Leg. Capt orders it) you can have Emergency LS for no cost...well there is a logical explaination: Residual power and emergency proceedures. (I'll not go into detail here now)

As far as replicator mechanisms go there aren't just one or two on a ship but several of various types. These are in various places on the ship (some centered near the core of the ship) and have their own power grid (which is shut down during combat). To destroy the last replicator on a ship you would probably be destroying the last Excess Damage hit and the replicator won't be needed by the all dead crew.

I have little doubt that there are emergency supplies, including food and a bit-o-water in every escape pod and shuttle.

No one is going to replicate food for storage.

BTW: The Replicators primary goal is to explain why Shipping and Commerce is not threatened by Replicators. The SFU needs this to be the case and so was tailored to that goal. But it expands things to that players will have a better foundation and general understanding of the hows and whats of replicators so everyone will play on the same field. But all the doors are not shut and people can tailor things to their personal taste and vision. The article should open more doors than it closes.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 12:49 pm: Edit

Gary Plana: Just sent e-mail regarding a slight change to the original article.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 01:13 pm: Edit

I would expect starships to have a small supply of true emergancy rations (MRE's or equivalent) becouse things can happen temporarily to the replicators/computers and it's not possible to just pull over and raid the local supermarket for supplies

given that ships have at least a 6 month duration, I would only expect there to be a couple days worth of rations on board and they would probably be such that the replicator rations would be prefered

I would also expect that not one in a hundred ships would ever touch these rations during anything resembling a normal deployment

By Steve Cole (Stevecole) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 01:28 pm: Edit

What I'd see is....

A certain amount of stored food in its natural state, grown on a farm and bought at a market.

A huge vat (or three) of feedstock (proteins and such) which Loren's semi-replicator can turn into any of a number of food items. Flavor is B+.

Replicator rations, taste C+, expensive since you have to turn anti-matter for the electricity to make it, but everybody gets some of this now and then for special treats, medically-ordered diets, and a little variety.

Marine combat rations. A certain amount of this MRE stuff is on board for when you need to send the marines.

Lifeboat rations, those horrid cubes of "food" which will keep you going for a week or two.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 01:29 pm: Edit

Well, like I said the place for these would be in the escape pods and shuttles. The crew can alway get into these in the very rare special situation where they are needed.

Also remember NOT ALL FOOD on a Starship is replicated. They do have kitchens with real food. They do not generally have enough stores for the whole crews every meal but at least one a day is the real thing. On very extended missions this food might run out but not on patrol. Stops at bases and replenishment of supplies is weekly to monthly.

SVC please correct me if I'm wrong.

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 01:31 pm: Edit

Well, there ya go.

By David Lang (Dlang) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 01:46 pm: Edit

also as expensive as replicating is in terms of power it actually ends up being cheap when you consider the power required to haul stuff around for many months

By Loren Knight (Loren) on Tuesday, December 07, 2004 - 02:16 pm: Edit

I tried to present a system that has a fair power cost when power is readily available. But you need a good source in place. You aren't going to power a Replicator with solar cells! (And probably not even with a phaser power cell).