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Tractors and turn modes
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1937
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, fair enough. I suppose also that the drone will be on the ship card by then anyway.....
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Kang
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Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 6:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
Kang wrote:
Another Tractor question that has probably been answered somewhere already....

I tractor an enemy starship and have control of the movement because I have spent more power on my base speed. Let's say I'm in hex 0806 facing A and he's in 0906, facing not relevant. Let's say I now turn left and go into hex 0706. Does my victim get pulled into 0806 or does he 'swing' around on the end of the tractor into hex 0805? And is there any tractor-rotation facility like there was in SFB?

The tractored ship would be pulled into hex 0805.

He doesn't "swing around" at all. When your ship (the tractoring ship) makes it's turn towards direction F to enter hex 0706, the tractored ship remains in hex 0906. Then once you advance into hex 0706 (1 hex of movement in direction F), the tractored ship follows (in the same orientation it previously had) into hex 0805 (1 hex of movement in direction F, the same as the tractoring ship)

Second question: No, there is no "tractor Rotation" in Federation Commander.


Sorry to revive an old thread, but I was researching this tractor question again.

To continue this example, then, can I just check I have it right - the tractored ship stays in the same board position relative to the tractoring ship and does not swing round. Fair enough. So effectively this means that there is a sort of tractor rotation, call it a 'passive tractor rotation' if you like, where the tractoring ship simply by turning can move the victim into new weapon arcs. Or, more accurately, he moves the new weapon arcs onto the target ship by turning his own ship. Have I got that right?
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Mike
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Joined: 07 May 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's how it seems to me, too.

Tractored ships can't be rotated, but the tractoring ship can rotate either by turning or high energy turn.
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2008 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is correct and has been used to good advantage by our players several times.

Fire everything that bears... the target burns all power to reinforce (since nothing else bears)
Grab him in a tractor... nothing else bears, so "oh well. At least I'll have power to reinforce before his weapons recycle next turn..."
Tractoring ship turns... tractored ship in now in a different arc...
New weapons bear... no power to reinforce... Oh, darn!!!
hehehe.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Sat Aug 16, 2008 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
Tractoring ship turns... tractored ship in now in a different arc...
New weapons bear... no power to reinforce... Oh, darn!!!
hehehe.

Plus of course he's still at close range.....

Nice tactic Twisted Evil
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Kang
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now for another tractor question. Is this allowed: to establish a tractor beam, then drop it again, all in the same Other Functions Phase?

This might happen if I had a 'victim' ship in an enemy tractor, I then tractor either my own ship with more power than the enemy ship thus breaking the tractor, or I tractor the enemy ship with more power than his tractor - and (5D5c) [Briefing #1] says in essence that a tractored ship cannot itself tractor another ship.

Basically, whether I tractor my ship or the enemy ship, if I apply sufficient power, the enemy beam onto my victim ship will be broken - but I may not want to keep that new tractor link either to my ship or to the enemy one.

So, once the enemy beam is broken, can I then drop my beam immediately in the same Other Functions Phase?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you may apply a tractor beam and then subsequently drop it all in the same Other Functions Phase.

Using a tractor to engage in a tractor auction with the specific intent of breaking another tractor beam is a valid use.

Do note that this counts as the use of that tractor for that turn. So, if that was your only tractor, you have to wait until next turn to use it again.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This leads me to another question, this time about tractor auctions.

The rules for tractor auctions state that if the tractored player pays his single token for negative tractor, the tractoring player 'must match this' or lose the tractor link.

If, then, I tractor a ship and pay one energy point for the tractor beam, and the tractored ship pays one energy point to break it, is the beam broken?

It appears, then, that if the negative tractor equals the beam strength, the beam is broken.

In other words, therefore, the beam strength has to be more than, not simply equal to, the negative tractor energy, in order to remain a functioning tractor link.

Is that right?
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Davec_24
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Joined: 16 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The ambiguity is in the part where it says "...match this...". It seems tome to be unclear what you have to "match". Do you have to match or exceed the negative tractor in total energy used (i.e. including the one point you paid to establish the tractor), in which case one point of negative tractor would not break a beam? Or do you have to match the negative tractor bid for bid, excluding the first point of energy you paid to establish the beam as this was done before the "bidding process" bagan, in which case one point of negative tractor would not break the beam?

The way the rule is phrased seems to me like the tractoring player must match the "bid" of the negative tractor. The question is if the energy point used to start tractoring counts as a "bid" for these purposes. I would have said it makes sense to say the tractoring ship has to end up paying more energy overall than the tractored ship, i.e. including that first energy point into the total, he must *exceed* the amount paid for negative tractor (and so he would "match" the amout used for negative tractor in terms of his energy "bid"). That would be my take on the idea, anyway.
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OGREAI
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Joined: 02 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also read it that way.

The Tractoring ship must MATCH the negative tractoring bids (so they would cancel each other out) so that the ONE point of power to start the tractor would win out

example

Player A tractors Player B (1-0) (Player A - Player B power)
Player B bids 1 point Negative Tractor (1-1)
Player A "matches" Player B's bid (2-1)
Player B bids 1 more negative tractor (2-2)
Player A "matches" again (3-2)

etc...

as long as Player A keeps "matching" player B, then he will have paid more power, and thus keeps the tractor... without having an advantage, the beam fails.


OGRE AI
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Mike
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's how we play it and how we read it, too.
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Davec_24
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to make sense, in that you would have to have energy left to form the tractor beam after the tractor and negative tractor have cancelled each other out. Continuing from OGREAI's example, if Player A failed to "match" the bid of Player B:

Player A tractors Player B (1-0) (Player A power - Player B power)
Player B bids 1 point of Negative Tractor (1-1)
Player A "matches" Player B's bid (2-1)
Player B bids 1 more negative tractor (2-2)
Player A doesn't "match" the bid, and the link is broken. The overall energy is equal between Players A and B, but Player A's "bid" is less than Player B's "bid" and so the link is broken.

Assuming we're right about this, it might be more clear to think of it as "Player A must spend more energy on creating the tractor than Player B puts into negative tractor".
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 3:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You guys are correct.

1 point of negative tractor will cancel 1 point of tractor. If it is canceled, then there is no tractor beam connection.

In order to establish a tractor beam to a ship, you must have a 1-point advantage in applied energy.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are three types of tractor auctions:
1) Ship A tractors Ship B. The tractor auction consists of tractor energy from Ship A and negative tractor energy from Ship B. This is covered by (5D6a). In this case the energy expended by Ship A must exceed the energy expended by Ship B. So, for example, if Ship B has 5 points of energy in negative tractor, Ship A must have 6 points of energy in tractor to retain the tractor link.

2) Ship A and Ship B both try to tractor the same object. The tractor auction consists of tractor energy from both Ships A and B. This is covered by (5D5b). The ship with the higher energy total maintains (or gets) the tractor link. The other ship does not get (or loses) their tractor link. If the energy total is the same, *both* tractor links fail.

3) Ship A tractors Ship B, which is already tractoring Ship C. The tractor auction consists of tractor energy from Ship A, and either tractor or negative tractor energy by Ship B. This is covered by rule (5D5c). If ship A expends more energy than Ship B, then Ship B's tractor is broken, and Ship A has Ship B in a tractor. If Ship B expends as much energy (or more energy) than Ship A, then Ship B's tractor is sustained, and Ship A's tractor attempt fails.

In all cases, any winning tractor maintains all expended energy, for the duration of the turn. So, if a ship has five points of energy in it, and other ship wishes to break it with its own tractor, it has to start a five points of energy, not just one.

In all cases, any negative tractor energy remains for the duration of the turn. For example, a ship uses five points of negative tractor energy, but loses the tractor auction because the tractoring ship uses six points of energy. If the tractoring ship drops the tractor later in the turn, any further attempt to tractor the first ship must start with six points of energy because the ship's negative tractor energy still stands at five points.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
2) Ship A and Ship B both try to tractor the same object. The tractor auction consists of tractor energy from both Ships A and B. This is covered by (5D5b). The ship with the higher energy total maintains (or gets) the tractor link. The other ship does not get (or loses) their tractor link. If the energy total is the same, *both* tractor links fail.

3) Ship A tractors Ship B, which is already tractoring Ship C. The tractor auction consists of tractor energy from Ship A, and either tractor or negative tractor energy by Ship B. This is covered by rule (5D5c). If ship A expends more energy than Ship B, then Ship B's tractor is broken, and Ship A has Ship B in a tractor. If Ship B expends as much energy (or more energy) than Ship A, then Ship B's tractor is sustained, and Ship A's tractor attempt fails.


Thanks for that, Mike.

It's interesting, too. What you have written means, then, that if an enemy DN [ship B] is tractoring my FF [ship C], and I want to break that link using another ship [say a CA, ship A], then I can either tractor the DN itself for one point more than his tractor, and thereby release my FF AND get a working tractor on the DN, OR I can tractor the FF for an equal amount of power, and still release the FF.

Guess which I'd choose.

Of course, I realise that it depends on the tactical position; I may want to keep my tractor on the DN - in which case I can use the first option - or simply to release the FF would mean using the second, cheaper option.
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