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General discussion arising from a rules discussion thread.

 
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1873

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:49 pm    Post subject: General discussion arising from a rules discussion thread. Reply with quote

From the thread about vudar playtesting, http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1716&start=30

pneumonic81 wrote:
Quote:
What I said still holds, I don't think it 'needs' a new function, defensive or offensive per se, and certainly not in the way you were suggesting or for the reason you were arguing (essentially that it needs another function purely for sake of having another function). It is a good defensive system as is, so long as you view things from the perspective of the universe the game is set in - excellent anti drone/anti fighter when the primary races it faces use fighters and drones.


Incorrect. I never suggested anything for the "sake of having another function" I suggested changes because the IPG was too weak and pretty much never used and not fun to play.

Quote:
I only half agree with what the OP was saying the problem was (they fly like feds), however, IMHO that reasoning is moot. I don't think the suggestion that has been arrived at needs a balance reason or whatever to be accepted. I think it is a good idea to convert SFB aspects of a race/weapon irrespective of such arguments so long as the conversion is not complicated.


I can only immagine what sort of game you design on your own.
Regardless you never said that originally. You were content with what was offered.


Quote:
Not having the offensive ram aspect of an ESG would have been a bit unfortunate, but, if for some reason it couldn't be done whilst keeping to the streamlined ideals of FC, then I would not have been in favor of giving it some other compensating feature that it has never had (e.g. the anti plamsa rule). Whilst I never played Vudar in SFB (they arrived after I stopped playing) if as I gather Vudar have a similar ECM type ability in SFB then this seems a good idea even if it does not work precisely like it does in SFB - just as the ESG in FC doesn't work like it does in SFB it does a good enough job of reflecting it whilst being faster and easier to use than in SFB.


I think looking to SFB for guidance when bringing over a race is important. However I dont think we should be afraid to think outside the box. You look to SFB as if its the bible of Star Trek gaming. I think that its possible to come up with other ideas that didnt originate in the 80s. I loved SFB back in the day, and today, I prefer Fedcoms streamlined rules and flavor. Try moving outside your comfort zoen and dont be afriad to suggest things, even if they dont produce any fruit, they might generate further ideas. Thats how creative endeavors work.

Sometimes, reading some of the posts you make, it seems like you would rather stiffle creativity and simply take what is handed to you.


Carried on here as not really about vudar playtest anymore.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain


Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1873

PostPosted: Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pneumonic81 wrote:

Incorrect. I never suggested anything for the "sake of having another function" I suggested changes because the IPG was too weak and pretty much never used and not fun to play.



They seem the same to me, 'it needs another function cos there are situations that mean it may not be used otherwise'. A system not being used does not mean there is a balance problem, whereas saying you want another function so it has something to do more often or is more fun is in essence wanting another function for the sake of having another function.

The current 'fix' is not predicated on the idea that a single system on a ship can somehow be underperforming in isolation to the rest of the ship, but takes a more holistic look at the race and makes a suggestion to solve a perceived issue, one that happens to involve the IPG and seeks to maintain conceptual consistency across the 2 games. If you are going to argue about balance then that is where you argue about game balance, how does the ship/race as a whole play, not how does a single system on the ship compare to different systems on other races ships.

Quote:
Quote:
I only half agree with what the OP was saying the problem was (they fly like feds), however, IMHO that reasoning is moot. I don't think the suggestion that has been arrived at needs a balance reason or whatever to be accepted. I think it is a good idea to convert SFB aspects of a race/weapon irrespective of such arguments so long as the conversion is not complicated.


...
Regardless you never said that originally. You were content with what was offered.


I still am content with what is offered even before this suggestion. Liking the current idea and being content with what was on offer before are not incompatible. The change now offered is based on the idea that the ships as a whole fly to much like a fed ship without some of the other Vudar features of SFB. There was no argument about the ipg needs a function so it can be used against more foes. The current idea is a solution to a different problem.

Quote:
However I dont think we should be afraid to think outside the box. You look to SFB as if its the bible of Star Trek gaming. I think that its possible to come up with other ideas that didnt originate in the 80s. I loved SFB back in the day, and today, I prefer Fedcoms streamlined rules and flavor. Try moving outside your comfort zoen and dont be afriad to suggest things, even if they dont produce any fruit, they might generate further ideas. Thats how creative endeavors work.

Sometimes, reading some of the posts you make, it seems like you would rather stiffle creativity and simply take what is handed to you.


You assume to much. I have no interest in star trek at all, I do not play and have no interest in other star trek games, and would play this whether it was related to star trek or not. I haven't watch star trek in years, and haven't watched most of any the spin offs ever. I really have no great interest in star trek, period.


Now I'll assume probably to much. It appears fairly clear to me (maybe wrongly) that Fed com is not a blank cheque to add all sorts of new ideas, but an attempt to port SFB to a faster more casual friendly format. I imagine that at a business level the idea is to A) get people like me who used to love SFB (but no longer play it due to time etc) to start buying stuff and therefore generating profit for S Cole and co. B) To provide an easier to get into hook for totally new players to get into the whole SFU which expands the fan base and again generates a living for S Cole and co. C) In combination with BOM, maybe provide F&E (or other campaign system) players something that they might find workable as a way of playing out battles that are generated, again new product to sell to a fan base to generate profit. D) Again in combination with BOM, provide an alternative version of the game that existing SFBers would buy into.

Falling into the A) category above I am not expecting to come and find that the races have stuff that they never did have, and still do not have in SFB. I am expecting to see all the old races with all the same tech/weapons and within the contraints of a faster system feel as familiar as they used to. If wanted something different then there are other space games I like and could play. The B) category are going to be just as baffled if the play FC and try SFB only to find that the 'Multi function Federation deflector dish' no longer exists, or that The ESG no longer causes all cloaks in 5 hexes to cancel. whilst I might not expect the stuff to work the same rule wise I expect them to work the same concept wise. The C) and D) categories really are not likley to want whole conceptual changes.

Whilst I can accept that some stuff isn't ported as it would clash with the streamlined concept (plasma variants, mass fightes etc), I just don't see FC adding wholy new concepts to races just because they choose not to port something they did have. My comments are not based on being unable to think outside the box, or stifling creativity, but on trying to be realistic about what may or may not happen, and on the difference in approach to outlining a 'problem' and a 'fix' between yourself and someone else.
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