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Barry Kirk
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 46
Location: York, PA
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 Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:09 pm Post subject: |
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Nerroth,
I assume that our posts crossed in the BBS so to speak.
I did an extensive spreadsheet analysis of the FEB a few months back... and I'm pretty certain that if you drop the delay on it, you'll break the weapon by making it too powerful.
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Barry Kirk
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 46
Location: York, PA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:11 pm Post subject: |
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I can e-mail you the spreadsheet I did showing the analysis....
As I said, I did it a couple of months ago.
My e-mail is baldnforty@gmail.com
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After the show bath and before the show, she went digging in the mud. |
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Nerroth
Fleet Captain
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1744
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Barry,
I posted that last message before I saw your FEB reply, sorry.
I guess what I can do is leave the delay back in for now, and see how it's taken. If in the grand scheme of things it's considered to be worth letting the weapon avoid it, the rule can be changed, otherwise it can stay in as a pressure valve on the Iridani's direct-fire options.
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Barry Kirk
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 46
Location: York, PA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:38 pm Post subject: |
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No problem...
There is a talkshoe program tonight at 9:30PM with Paul Franz pin number is 17702... maybe... Is origins going on right now? If it is, then he will be broadcasting from there...
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After the show bath and before the show, she went digging in the mud. |
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Nerroth
Fleet Captain
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1744
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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Origins will be on in another couple of weeks.
Oh, what do you think of the other ideas in my last post?
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Barry Kirk
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 26 Dec 2008
Posts: 46
Location: York, PA
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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I think what your doing is outstanding!.... Keep up the good work.
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After the show bath and before the show, she went digging in the mud. |
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Nerroth
Fleet Captain
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1744
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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Here's a pared-down take on the support section. Note that the TIs are unchanged, so they are not re-posted here.
| Quote: | (4OC) IRIDANI MODULES
Most Iridani starships are designed with the application of one or more modules in mind. (Indeed, the relevant ships cannot operate without all of their module slots filled.) The modular system is at the very core of the operation of Iridani Quests, since the variety of modules available allow an Iridani vessel to perform a wide range of tasks, in order to fulfil the terms of the Quest the commanding officer may be placed under.
For the time being, each modular Iridani ship in Federation Commander is assumed to have a common set of modules already attached to each ship of a certain class type. These modules are considered part of the ship for all purposes.
Should the desire arise for more detailed rules concerning the application of specific modules to a given Iridani ship, these options may be presented in a future product.
(4OD) INTEGRATED WARP TRACTORS
During their time in operation among the stars of Omega, the ships of the Bolosco Merchant Guilds earned a reputation as the masters of tractor beam technology. Perhaps the most telling example of this mastery can be found in the integrated warp tractor system, which most Bolosco ships used in place of standard tractor beams. In addition to its function as a (superior) tractor beam, each IWT offers a flexible range of options, each showing a different aspect of tractor beam application.
(4OD1) GENERAL RULE
(4OD1a) Ship Card: Each ‘IWT’ box on the Ship Card represents one integrated warp tractor. It is disabled by a single point of damage, counts as a ‘tractor’ when using the Damage Allocation Table, and is repaired by four repair points.
(4OD1b) Tractor Beam Operation: With the below exceptions, integrated warp tractors operate using the rules outlined in (5D) for standard tractor beams.
(4OD1c) Range: In all modes, the integrated warp tractor has a maximum range of two hexes, rather than just one.
(4OD2) INTEGRATED WARP TRACTOR OPERATIONS
A wider array of options exist for integrated warp tractors in Star Fleet Battles; only a handful of these are presented for the time being. Other modes, if required, may be offered in a later publication.
(4OD2a) Tractor Beam Use: When used as a standard tractor beam, integrated warp tractors have a reduced cost of operation; when used at ranges 0 or 1, 1/2 of an Energy Point produces one point of tractor force, or one Energy Point per point of tractor force at range 2.
(4OD2b) Negative Tractor: When used for the purposes of applying "negative tractor" under (5D6a), each Energy Point applied in this manner counts as two points' worth when determining whether or not the enemy tractor link is broken.
(4OD2c) Tractor Crush: An enemy target held in tractor may be "crushed" by the application of tractor power. If the target has been held in a tractor beam for at least one Impulse, the Bolosco ship may elect to apply a tractor crush during the Offensive Fire Phase (1E2d) of the Sequence of Play. The Bolosco ship expends three Energy Points if the target is at range 0 or 1, or 4 Energy Points if the target is held at range 2. For each shield facing possessed by the target, roll a die and subtract 1 from the total; this is the amount of damage applied to each facing. Once the crush attack is made, the tractor link is broken.
Note: Units which have only two 'facings', such as most Andromedan units, only roll two dice, one per side. Shuttles, drones, tachyon missiles and Hydran Stingers roll only a single die.
(4OE) BOLOSCO PODS
In comparison to the fleets of most empires in known space, the majority of Bolosco ships were designed from the keel up to act in a manner akin to the tugs and light tactical transports of other empires. With a range of small and large pods available for use, the capabilities of each pod-capable Bolosco ship could be adjusted - albeit at the cost of reducing the ship's turn mode.
(4OE1) GENERAL RULE
While a large range of pods are available to use for the Guilds’ vessels, for the time being only two options are available for use with Bolosco ships. Other pods may be presented for use in a later product, should the remainder of the Bolosco fleet be presented in Federation Commander.
(4OE2) POD OPERATION
Both pods presented below use the rules from (5T). Note that the rules concerning ‘side-by-side’ or ‘fore-and-aft’ pod use applies only to small pods; no currently-published Bolosco ship may carry more than one large pod (or one small and one large pod, in any configuration).
(4OE3) TYPES OF PODS
At present, there are two types of pod available for Bolosco ships in Federation Commander, as noted below.
(4OE3a) Large Cargo Pod: Most commonly seen in use by merchant ships, these pods allowed for a massive amount of goods to be carried along the Guilds' network of trade routes. Each such pod adds 8 points to the Point Value of the equipped ship.
(4OE3e) Small Cargo Pod: The smaller counterpart of the large cargo pod, there were more Bolosco ships in service with the ability to carry one (or two) such units. Each such pod adds 4 points to the Point Value of the equipped ship. |
I could get rid of the large pod, but that would perhaps leave the MC (which can only take one pod) a bit short-changed.
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EDIT:
Okay - I sat down with the SSDs and did a bit of number-crunching, regarding the Iridani modules and how much they will add to the ship's cost.
(As a reminder, the Weapons module is 10 points, Command 12, Hospital 6 and VIP 8.)
For the Man-O-War, I'd go with one of all four - which takes the ship up to 316 points.
The Brigantine I'd give one Command, one VIP and one Weapons module, to go to 222 points.
The Galleon... the way I see it, most Galleons go on lone Quests, where showing off to the locals is more important than leading fleets. So, I'd pick a VIP and Weapons module and peg the ship at 142 points.
The Clipper, hmm. You know what? I kinda want to give it a VIP module (and go to 150 points). A CP already has a ton of power and a good weapons set, plus it's used as a super-courier more than a fast responder according to the fluff. Although, a weapons module would make it 152.
For the Barque, a bog-standard Weapons module will take it to 120 points.
The Caravel destroyer with a Weapons module goes to 94, and we're mostly set.
(The Yawl can't use a module.)
How is that?
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Nerroth
Fleet Captain
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1744
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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I was thinking about the suggestion Dal had a bit earlier.
Alongside the standard file (covering the full list of ships) I have worked up a draft of a thing I called Omega Fastload. It's only got rules for Phaser-Ws, light (not heavy) photons, FEBs and TIs, as well as short descriptions for two ships (Auroran CLA and Iridani GLB) and a basic scenario showing them fight (in a 'training exercise' against each other, along with variations covering the odd live-fire encounters against Andromedan opposition).
The CLA was an obvious choice, not least since I would consider the upcoming OCA mini as a fine substitute. (For me, the OCA mini might need to be modified somewhat to represent the larger and more heavily-armed BC.)
The GLB already has its SFB SSD available online, is an interesting variant to try out, and doesn't invalidate the presence of the standard 'broadsiding' Galleon in the regular file.
Does that sound like it might be a good, um, first mission for FC players looking to give Omega to try?
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EDIT:
I had another look at the Galleon vs. the Clipper.
As it stands, the base Clipper has more padding (in terms of hull boxes) than the base Galleon hull - but if one of the GL modules is the VIP option, they even out. Plus, with a weapons module as the other module in a Galleon, it goes up to 36+4, not that far off what the base Clipper has.
So, I guess the Clipper's as well just going for the Weapons module, along with the other one-module ships. (That would leave the GL with more shuttles, but that sounds fair enough.)
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Last edited by Nerroth on Tue Jun 15, 2010 4:15 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 5:07 pm Post subject: |
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Allowing IWTs to tractor at range 2 worries me. Tractors in FC seem far more potent things than in SFB. The cheap cost of tractoring also seems way too good, consider this:
Bolosco ship gets off some other ship's number 3 and manages to get a tractor locked on at range 2. They then fire their phasers and wait for the turn break.
In EA the other ship really has no chance as far as breaking the lock goes. They are stuck and that's that. The Bolosco ship basically has twice as much power available (more if they are using a power adding module). Once the lock is re-established the Bolosco plots a decently fast speed to prevent anyone from moving. Then they fire their phasers again and wait for turn break......
The enemy ship is helpless, they'll never break out and only whatever weak weapons can fire through the number 3 shield can fire back.
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My suggestion: Tractoring costs are normal, range 1, 1 point per. Negative tractor still gets 2 per energy. Weaponized tractor modes do not require tractor lock. |
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Nerroth
Fleet Captain
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1744
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:11 pm Post subject: |
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One thing to bear in mind is that at range two, the Bolosco pay the standard rate for tractor use. Only if the IWT is at range 0-1 do they get the discount.
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Nerroth wrote: | | One thing to bear in mind is that at range two, the Bolosco pay the standard rate for tractor use. Only if the IWT is at range 0-1 do they get the discount. |
That doesn't solve the problem that, at range 0-1, the other ship is hosed in FC. In SFB the other ship can still turn and do all manner of things, the tractor lets both ships pull, push, and maneuver....not so in FC. Only the moving ship can.
To quote MJW in: http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?p=5627#5627
| Quote: | | But, to reinforce my initial summary, the non-moving tractored ship is pretty much screwed. |
If you give them cheap tractors then they will not only be able to assure the link, they can also assure they are the moving ship as the energy balance favors them. |
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Nerroth
Fleet Captain
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1744
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 9:21 pm Post subject: |
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Hmm.
The thing I see is that tractors also matter in terms of seeking weapon defence. If the reduced cost goes away entirely, the options a Bolosco ship (especially the smaller ones not currently on the list, but which may come along someday) might be disadvantaged in that regard.
Plus, I do want to keep the range 2 option, in some form or other. If you keep chipping away at the options the IWT has, you'd start to wonder just what was so special about the Bolosco's tractor technology in the first place...
So, how about this: keep the range at 2, and the half-price cost for tractor use at range 0-1 when using any function other than (5D6)?
That would maintain the seeking weapon defence aspect of the IWT, while putting a cap on the ability to go after other ships.
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:23 pm Post subject: |
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I could see keeping range 2 if you said half cost only applied to non-ship targets. Perhaps even let it be half cost at all ranges against non-ship targets. Let them keep half cost negative tractor too; that's a cool feature that keeps the system unique without causing problems.
What will then need to be considered are the weaponized versions. This change makes it potentially more expensive to get the tractor lock in range 0-1. The cost for the weapon function may need to go down or some feature of the weapon could be tweaked in this bracket.
For the tractor crush you have listed there I would say just have it cost 2 instead of 3 at range 0-1 and call it good. Since range 2 tractor cost was always 1 and stays 1 the 4 cost there can stay as is. This will of course need playtesting. |
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Nerroth
Fleet Captain
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1744
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:16 am Post subject: |
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Well, for now it seems safer to err on the side of caution, in terms of the tractor crush cost.
If it turns out to be too pricey at range 0-1, given the carry-on cost from holding the target in tractor to that point, then it can be adjusted - but we'll see.
Oh, aside from the Bolosco stuff, do you have any thoughts on the other ideas I've been posting about lately?
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Tue Jun 15, 2010 6:53 am Post subject: |
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| Nerroth wrote: | | Oh, aside from the Bolosco stuff, do you have any thoughts on the other ideas I've been posting about lately? |
I'm still in favor of no Bolosco but that's as may be  .
I like that you moved the Iridani to static preprinted pods. I don't know enough about playing Iridani to comment on which pod choices you made. You could probably likely do the same for Bolosco, no? The smattering of ships included then would not include pod rules since they have set pods.
I would leave the alternate firing arc B-variants off the SSD. They could maybe be featured as a special rule in some scenarios or something. Or some could come as free variants in communiques later. They are such a minor difference.
The FEB delay could be easily included on the SSD by having either one box where you note what impulse it fired or 4 cooldown boxes that you mark off as impulses pass. These sorts of play aid help make a non-standard weapon more in line with FCs style. |
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