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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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 Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: |
No - we can also go with the known adjustemt for orions. And we don't go with our subjective opinions, because exactly like the plasma issue I was proposing testing, we will probably have different opinions. |
As you pointed out, the known adjustment for Orions is 20%. And frankly, 20% is ridiculous. Mike threw out 15% as an estimate. Unless he weighs in officially, I'm going to treat that number as exactly an estimate.
| storeylf wrote: |
No - you think in a few cases they are better against a very restricted set of other ships that are not even relevant to the propsoed test in the first place . |
The "very restricted" set of ships is the set of ships that are approximately equal point value. IOW, it's the very set of ships that we need to compare to!
| storeylf wrote: |
Really ? [sarcasm]The points value of a ship is printed on my cards, it doesn't change because I pair it with another ship.[/sarcasm].
What evidence have you that Gorn ships, or Fed ships have in any way been pointed to account the endless combinations of who they might be paired with?
I'm personally going on the basis they have been pointed with no such consideration. |
Really ? [sarcasm] You don't think that ISC plasma ships weren't pointed toward being paired with PPD ships? [/sarcasm]
I'm personally going on the basis that ISC plasma ships have been pointed with exactly such consideration.
| storeylf wrote: |
Who talking of doing that? |
| storeylf wrote: |
As noted earlier it may be that the 'cloak removed' cost of Roms may be a more accurate bpv than either Gorns or ISC and it is them that are wrong |
Why I believe it's you who talked about ISC being potentially wrong. That implies lowering their point values.
| storeylf wrote: |
All I proposed was to play plasma ships against non-plasma ships to see how they fare. I even stated that for ISC I wouldn't be playing PPDs, as it is testing plasma I'm intereted in, and they provide another style of plasma armed ship to help iron various other attributes that might mask any potential plasma issues (e.g gorn phasers/ rom cloaks). |
This is all in the context of whether 15% is the proper discount for removing Romulan cloaks. I think it's too much of a discount and you seem to imply that it's the right discount but existing Gorn/ISC ships are wrong. I'm saying that ISC ships are not wrong (and certainly wouldn't be changed) due to the nature of the rest of their fleet.
| storeylf wrote: |
I didn't miss your 'fix' for plasma. You are indeed missing the point. The point is to do a decent test on the EXISTING system to see how good or badly plasma does against non-plasma, to check if there is indeed a problem.
Your fix is currently irrelevant, that is not what we are talking about. You have skipped the test and propsed a fix for a problem that may not exist. Even where it does exist it may only exist in certain cases - e.g Gorn only. |
You seem to think there should be only 1 set of points no matter what, that it should never change depending on opposition or supporting ships. I was merely pointing out that it makes sense that it should change based on supporting ships with a perfect example being ISC. The ISC plasma ships are far better off supporting PPD ships than on their own and should be priced accordingly based on that aspect. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 4:44 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | mojo jojo wrote: |
IOW, there's maybe 1 matchup where cloak is worth the points and a whole lotta of them (probably the vast majority) where it's just a point sink. Even in that 1 "favorable" matchup, I still don't see any Orion choosing to pay 15% since IMO he'd be better off getting a bigger hull or better weapons with those points. |
Huh, You asked for and example of where it is extremenly useful, I gave one and you spin that as being the only case of where it worth the points.
I'm not disputing that an orion woud buy a cloak in a random matchup game - though its 20% extra not 15%. Its besides the point though, if I'm going to test the plasma as they are in the current game then you test the existing system, and the cloak costs what it does no matter what you think it should be worth.
Ps i'd disagree with the orion getting a bigger hull etc in that 1 matchup. In the matchup I happened to be thinking about we had already played uncloaked orions vs those hydrans and they got utterly annihilated (more than once), whilst cloaked romulans had a relatively easy time. |
If you're talking about the 18 stinger fleet, I seem to recall that the Rom game was close and could've gone either way. And it still wasn't an Orion choosing Cloak.
If you want an Orion fleet that was specialized against that Hydran fleet, it would be trivial to nuke it with an all PL-F Orion fleet. The bigger hulls in this case should provide a decisive win rather than a close game. |
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4070
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:29 pm Post subject: |
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Guys,
Keep it in control. This is a good discussion. I want to keep it that way.
The cost to add a cloak to a ship or base is 20% in Federation Commander. However, we were talking about taking it away, not adding it.
The reason I said 15% is because the point values are taken from SFB (no secret there), and in SFB the nominal surcharge (theoretically baked into any Romulan BPV) is 15%. Using the 15% (rather than the FC 20%) is going to be the only way to get a decent approximation of what a cloak-less Romulan is considered to be worth.
And it is all an approximation, anyway. BPV in SFB were never assigned by generating a number, then adding 15%. They were generated straight up for the ship (with the included cloak). As such, anything we do to try and evaluate the point cost of a cloak-less Romulan ship is going to be approximate at best. It is just the nature of how things have been generated over time.
But I was wrong on the .85, anyway. To do it correctly, divide the full point value by 1.15. (Which is approximately equal to multiplying by .87.) Not a huge difference, but I figured I should point out my error.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1897
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:42 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: |
If you're talking about the 18 stinger fleet, I seem to recall that the Rom game was close and could've gone either way. And it still wasn't an Orion choosing Cloak. |
Yes the game was close due to a daft error on my behalf that gave the hydransmost of their points (or was it in fact all their points) that had nothing to do with the cloaks. I could have made exactly the same stupid mistake with any other fleet (under all the counters on the board I forgot to change facing as planned with a ship which resulted in it dying horribly whilst not being able to shoot back). The cloak itself was making the game relatively trivial for the romulans up to that point. Had it not been a time limited tourney game the romulans would almost have cetainly gone on to wipe out the remaining stingers and either kill or force the remaining ships to disengage, whilst taking relatively little damage back.
Stingers and hydran fusions really suffer against cloaks, even the fade period is a pain as +4 range knacks both gatlings and fusions.
If you want to discuss orion counters to that hydran fleet then post again
in that thread, cos I disagree with you. |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1897
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 5:43 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: |
As you pointed out, the known adjustment for Orions is 20%. And frankly, 20% is ridiculous. Mike threw out 15% as an estimate. Unless he weighs in officially, I'm going to treat that number as exactly an estimate. |
Err; maths time.
X * 1.2 = Y
hence
Y * 0.833333 = X
orions pay 20% extra for a cloak, hence you would multiply by almost .85 to get back to the uncloaked version.
MWests figure may be a guess. It may not. It does equate to orions. He is closer to how the ships are valued than us, and even if he is guessing he is a reasonable 3rd party to say use these figures for an approximate to the cost built in to the roms for cloaks.
[edit] Aha, it looks like Mwest has corrected his figure whilst I was typing.
| Quote: |
The "very restricted" set of ships is the set of ships that are approximately equal point value. IOW, it's the very set of ships that we need to compare to!
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Fed NCA, D5W, King Jag etc are also ships of the same value. They are also the ships we are interested in whether they are balanced against. You have made a subjective opinion on what the point value of an uncloaked rom should be based on looking at a very restricted set of ships that are not the ones we are interested in testing them against.
| Quote: |
Really ? [sarcasm] You don't think that ISC plasma ships weren't pointed toward being paired with PPD ships? [/sarcasm]
I'm personally going on the basis that ISC plasma ships have been pointed with exactly such consideration.
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I have no idea, I even said I could see a case for ISC as they are the same race - but going back to the question do you think gorns are pointed wrong? Your answer - it is hard to say because they might be paired with Kzinti.
Do you really think Gorn or Fed are costed by what othe races they are paired with?
| Quote: |
Why I believe it's you who talked about ISC being potentially wrong. That implies lowering their point values.
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Absolutely, I might find that plasma ISC on their own fair badly. They may even want a repointing. Where did I say by what or how they would be re-pointed?
| Quote: | This is all in the context of whether 15% is the proper discount for removing Romulan cloaks. I think it's too much of a discount and you seem to imply that it's the right discount but existing Gorn/ISC ships are wrong.
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When did I say it was the right discount? When did I say gorns were wrong?
I'm saying nothing of the sort. I have no idea what is the right cloak cost. I'll repeat for the umpteenth time. 15% is the cost suggested by MWest. It is the cost orions pay. I am not interested in working out a 'proper' value cost for cloaks, I am interested in the cost that is built into the current BPV (whether it is worth it or not), I'll take Mwests statement over your opinion.
I said Gorns cost might be wrong, so might ISC. Unlike you I trying not to prejudge anything.
| Quote: |
You seem to think there should be only 1 set of points no matter what, that it should never change depending on opposition or supporting ships. I was merely pointing out that it makes sense that it should change based on supporting ships with a perfect example being ISC. The ISC plasma ships are far better off supporting PPD ships than on their own and should be priced accordingly based on that aspect. |
There is only 1 set of points no matter what, the points on the card. That isn't going to change no matter what you nor I think. You said I shouldn't test ISC because they had PPD, I wasn't going to test ISC with PPD, I am interested in testing plasma vs non-plasma. IF plasma ISC have an issue then someone can look at what fix to apply, if it is an adjustment to BPV then someone can look at what sort of adjustment to make.
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For the sake of clarity I'll explain what I am interested in doing with you, or Saved From What or anyone else.
There are currently those who think plasma is basically fubar vs non-plasma and those who think plasma is ok.
As SavedFromWhat said, maybe it is about time we actually tested it out rather than argue theory. Rather than play just 1 or 2 games though I'd prefer to try and obtain a lot more data. Hence for anyone interested:
A series of online games pitting plasma user against non-plasma user, i.e. Roms, Gorns, ISC and Orions against non-plasma forces. The point of the exercise is to gain as much actual info on such matches across a range of matchups (both in terms of size and races) Playing across plasma races will help iron out other factors that may be causing issues for specific races, playing across historical and non-historical non-plasma races will help show whether any issue is down to who you take on, and playing across various sizes will help show whether any issues are due to ships size or how many ships etc. And of course more games will help average out bad rolling or someone being caught out by 'once only' tactics etc.
The point is not to test any fixes until such time as it is clear a fix may be needed.
The point is not to work out what the cost of cloaks ought to be.
The point is not to prejudge anything, but just to arrange a game and play it to the best of your ability. Record the result and any interesting notes that you think are worth commenting on.
What happens afterwards is neither here nor there for me, ADB may or may not take account of it, I'm doing it cos I'm interested in the results of such an excercise, and it provides an excuse for some games. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | mojo jojo wrote: |
If you're talking about the 18 stinger fleet, I seem to recall that the Rom game was close and could've gone either way. And it still wasn't an Orion choosing Cloak. |
Yes the game was close due to a daft error on my behalf that gave the hydransmost of their points (or was it in fact all their points) that had nothing to do with the cloaks. I could have made exactly the same stupid mistake with any other fleet (under all the counters on the board I forgot to change facing as planned with a ship which resulted in it dying horribly whilst not being able to shoot back). The cloak itself was making the game relatively trivial for the romulans up to that point. Had it not been a time limited tourney game the romulans would almost have cetainly gone on to wipe out the remaining stingers and either kill or force the remaining ships to disengage, whilst taking relatively little damage back.
Stingers and hydran fusions really suffer against cloaks, even the fade period is a pain as +4 range knacks both gatlings and fusions.
If you want to discuss orion counters to that hydran fleet then post again
in that thread, cos I disagree with you. |
Why in the world would your opponent fire during the fade out period? With stingers and fusion ships at 0-2 range, just wait until the Roms completely uncloak and then nuke them. Even if all stingers die, that should result in all Roms killed.
It seems to me that a Rom who cloaks with a dozen or more stingers around is begging to get killed. With a max speed of 16, the stingers can always be right on top of them. and simply waits until the fadeout period ends. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:31 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | [edit] Aha, it looks like Mwest has corrected his figure whilst I was typing. |
Yep, 13% discount is closer to the 10-12% that I was estimating.
| storeylf wrote: |
Fed NCA, D5W, King Jag etc are also ships of the same value. They are also the ships we are interested in whether they are balanced against. You have made a subjective opinion on what the point value of an uncloaked rom should be based on looking at a very restricted set of ships that are not the ones we are interested in testing them against. |
The non-plasma ships must be tested to see if plasma in general should be adjusted. That is completely irrelevant to whether 15% was the correct discount for removing cloak. That should be easily eyeballed based on looking at 2 ships side by side. A CNH vs a Gorn DN is close enough that it should be obvious that the CNH at 224 is a better deal than the DN at 229. Similarly, it should be obvious by looking that the FHK at 152 would be a better deal than the ISC CL at 150.
However now that Mike has answered, we know the correct figure should be .87.
| storeylf wrote: |
I have no idea, I even said I could see a case for ISC as they are the same race - but going back to the question do you think gorns are pointed wrong? Your answer - it is hard to say because they might be paired with Kzinti.
Do you really think Gorn or Fed are costed by what othe races they are paired with? |
You seemed boggled by the idea that the value of a ship could differ based on who they're paired with. I merely pointed out that the ISC plasma ships do have sharply different utiltity depending on whether they're paired with PPDs or not.
| storeylf wrote: |
Absolutely, I might find that plasma ISC on their own fair badly. They may even want a repointing. Where did I say by what or how they would be re-pointed? |
If you say that they may want a repointing, that implies that you think their cost should be less than it currently is.
As an aside, I think that even if ISC plasma on their own fair badly, they shouldn't warrant a repointing since most of the time, they'll be escorts for PPD ships.
| storeylf wrote: |
When did I say it was the right discount? When did I say gorns were wrong?
I'm saying nothing of the sort. I have no idea what is the right cloak cost. I'll repeat for the umpteenth time. 15% is the cost suggested by MWest. It is the cost orions pay. I am not interested in working out a 'proper' value cost for cloaks, I am interested in the cost that is built into the current BPV (whether it is worth it or not), I'll take Mwests statement over your opinion.
I said Gorns cost might be wrong, so might ISC. Unlike you I trying not to prejudge anything. |
You were taking 15% and running with it even when it lead to illogical results such as a CNH being worth less than a Gorn DN or a FHK being worth about the same as an ISC CL or any number of other bad matchups.
| storeylf wrote: |
There is only 1 set of points no matter what, the points on the card. That isn't going to change no matter what you nor I think. You said I shouldn't test ISC because they had PPD, I wasn't going to test ISC with PPD, I am interested in testing plasma vs non-plasma. IF plasma ISC have an issue then someone can look at what fix to apply, if it is an adjustment to BPV then someone can look at what sort of adjustment to make. |
Obviously a ship card will only have one fixed BPV. However if you think that there is a problem with plasma the way it is right now (and many people have expressed their opinion including the ultimate expression of their opinion with tournament players), then my fix would be the easiest way to correct the problem without causing other problems. |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1897
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| Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2010 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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You still seem to be missing the point of my proposal. Everything you are on about is pre-judging stuff, or trying to adjust factors that I am not interested in testing.
The cloak: I am not interested in the realistic value of the cloak at the moment. If you are then put out a call to test it with people so you can arrive at a nice balanced value for it. As far as I'm concerned if MWest says Roms get it for free then they get it for free, if he says they get it for 50% then they get it for 50%. I'm interested in the points they actually get for that cloak, not the points you think they should have. If they are the costs then there is nothing illogical in using them at all, in fact it woud be illogical to do otherwise than use that given cost when you are not testing cloaks themselves, as it introduces another unknown variable and throws any off tests on the plasma.
Ship cost: I'm not boggled by the idea that a ship has different 'value' with different pairings. I'm boggled that you are suddenly unable to say whether you think gorns are pointed correctly. You are happy they will lose a fight against non-plasma, you are happy they would need a 10% discount under your 'fix'. Where does the idea that they might be pointed correctly because they might be supporting a kzinti ship come from. Have you any evidence that Gorn, Fed,Klingon or other races have a points value based on some cross racial alliance pairing, its certainly the first time I've heard that suggestion.
ISC: yes they may be escorts for PPDs ships (I'm not an ISC player, does any one actually take a PPD capable ship as a plasma escort rather than a couple of smaller ships?). It may be that their plasma ships were pointed on that basis. I don't know, do you actually know or are you just guessing/assuming? But if you want me throw to out a suggestion:- If it was for some reason decided to repoint ISC because they were weak with just plasma then you could simply drop their points and increase the PPD versions, Plasma ships would dropped to whatever was relevant, combined squadrons will still be about the same and PPD heavy groups will be more costly. The reality is that it is highly unlikely anything will happen, so as I say I don't really care about that side, I'm merely interested in testing plasma against non-plasma and seeing where it actually stands as things exist now. You are trying to jump to too many assumptions about what I do or do not think subsequent to that.
Your fix: I don't think there is a problem with plasma, we know that we disagree. The whole point of what I proposed was to forget that and 'fixes' etc and actually test the situation as it stands between you at one end and me at the other. Where is your data that suggests that your fix is correct? never mind whether there is problem or not, where is the data which suggests your % discounts in certain scenarios fixes everything without causing other issues? Where is your data that shows that all the plasma users are even equally affected?
Roms/hydran - A really well played hydran who fully understands all the interactions will probably make a better game of it, certainly my regular opponent would probably play it differently if he played it again, but just assuming like you just did leads to defeat. And a similar force with only a 'dozen' stingers probably would have lost the game in the blink of an eye. There are far better romulan groups for taking out such a stinger based group, but they weren't tourney legal, If it was a 'bring what you want' 450pt game then the 18 stinger hydran group wouldn't have stood a cat in hells chance against romulans. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:55 am Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: |
The cloak: I am not interested in the realistic value of the cloak at the moment. If you are then put out a call to test it with people so you can arrive at a nice balanced value for it. As far as I'm concerned if MWest says Roms get it for free then they get it for free, if he says they get it for 50% then they get it for 50%. I'm interested in the points they actually get for that cloak, not the points you think they should have. If they are the costs then there is nothing illogical in using them at all, in fact it woud be illogical to do otherwise than use that given cost when you are not testing cloaks themselves, as it introduces another unknown variable and throws any off tests on the plasma. |
Mike West did in fact say quasi-officially that it's 13% discount which fits in better IMO with the perceived value of Cloaks.
If he said 0% or 50%, I would resolve to ignore what he said because it would be completely stupid with regard to BPV. In the same way, if he priced a Fed FF at 500 pts, I would ignore it. There is a certain point where if something doesn't even come close to passing the "smell" test, it should be ignored. I am happy to say that the actual rules for FC are well written enough that I don't have anything that offends me to this extent.
| storeylf wrote: |
Ship cost: I'm not boggled by the idea that a ship has different 'value' with different pairings. I'm boggled that you are suddenly unable to say whether you think gorns are pointed correctly. You are happy they will lose a fight against non-plasma, you are happy they would need a 10% discount under your 'fix'. Where does the idea that they might be pointed correctly because they might be supporting a kzinti ship come from. Have you any evidence that Gorn, Fed,Klingon or other races have a points value based on some cross racial alliance pairing, its certainly the first time I've heard that suggestion.
ISC: yes they may be escorts for PPDs ships (I'm not an ISC player, does any one actually take a PPD capable ship as a plasma escort rather than a couple of smaller ships?). It may be that their plasma ships were pointed on that basis. I don't know, do you actually know or are you just guessing/assuming? But if you want me throw to out a suggestion:- If it was for some reason decided to repoint ISC because they were weak with just plasma then you could simply drop their points and increase the PPD versions, Plasma ships would dropped to whatever was relevant, combined squadrons will still be about the same and PPD heavy groups will be more costly. The reality is that it is highly unlikely anything will happen, so as I say I don't really care about that side, I'm merely interested in testing plasma against non-plasma and seeing where it actually stands as things exist now. You are trying to jump to too many assumptions about what I do or do not think subsequent to that. |
We have official word from up high (SVC) that ISC plasma and ppd ships will not change their printed BPV.
If you lower plasma across the board, then ISC fleets become too powerful. They're already powerful enough. If you lower just non-ISC plasma ships, then they would beat ISC plasma ships in an equal point duel.
Since ISC plasma and PPD printed BPV won't change, we have to look for other answers.
| storeylf wrote: |
Your fix: I don't think there is a problem with plasma, we know that we disagree. The whole point of what I proposed was to forget that and 'fixes' etc and actually test the situation as it stands between you at one end and me at the other. Where is your data that suggests that your fix is correct? never mind whether there is problem or not, where is the data which suggests your % discounts in certain scenarios fixes everything without causing other issues? Where is your data that shows that all the plasma users are even equally affected? |
If plasma is underpowered, the solution is to fix their BPV. There is definitely a breakpoint where plasma and non-plasma will be in equilibrium. That's simple common sense.
For example, I believe that a 450 pt Kzinti force will easily beat a 450 pt Rom force. I believe that a 1000 pt Rom force will easily beat a 450 pt Kzinti force. I believe that there is a certain value X where a 450 pt Kzinti force will be a relatively even match with a 450+X Rom force.
If you need data or proof to follow this reasoning, we probably don't have any room for discussion.
| storeylf wrote: |
Roms/hydran - A really well played hydran who fully understands all the interactions will probably make a better game of it, certainly my regular opponent would probably play it differently if he played it again, but just assuming like you just did leads to defeat. And a similar force with only a 'dozen' stingers probably would have lost the game in the blink of an eye. There are far better romulan groups for taking out such a stinger based group, but they weren't tourney legal, If it was a 'bring what you want' 450pt game then the 18 stinger hydran group wouldn't have stood a cat in hells chance against romulans. |
Your opponent had 18 stingers. That would make mincemeat of any Romulan who cloaks. I can only assume that he fired into the +4 shift while fading in, which is IMO very suboptimal play. A Romulan who cloaks with lots of stingers around will just die horribly when he uncloaks if the opponent waits.
What "assuming" did I do that would lead to defeat? And I find it hard to imagine a Rom tournament fleet using cloak as a major part of the strategy to take out the stingers against a smart opponent. The cloak is a losing strategy since a ship under cloak cannot move faster than 16 which means that the stingers (being far more maneuverable and with move advantage) will be sitting right on top of them. Just 3 stingers at range 0-1 will lead to a crippled cruiser sized target. |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1897
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: |
Your opponent had 18 stingers. That would make mincemeat of any Romulan who cloaks. I can only assume that he fired into the +4 shift while fading in, which is IMO very suboptimal play. A Romulan who cloaks with lots of stingers around will just die horribly when he uncloaks if the opponent waits.
What "assuming" did I do that would lead to defeat? And I find it hard to imagine a Rom tournament fleet using cloak as a major part of the strategy to take out the stingers against a smart opponent. The cloak is a losing strategy since a ship under cloak cannot move faster than 16 which means that the stingers (being far more maneuverable and with move advantage) will be sitting right on top of them. Just 3 stingers at range 0-1 will lead to a crippled cruiser sized target. |
Your assumptions are in the very text above. You've assumed you are going to make mince meat of the roms (they didn't) , you've assumed it is suboptimal to fire during fade in (it may under some circumstances and not others), you've assumed that cloaking is a losing strategy (it wasn't), you've assumed that stingers can't be sufficiently out manouvered by a cloaked ship (they must have been). You've underestimated what the opponent can do, that is a very bad start and hard to recover from half way through a game.
I sat down and looked very hard at the way roms work and how their rules interact with things like stingers before choosing romulans to play against that hydran force. Could I beat well played romulans in such a match? quite possibly, but it wouldn't be nearly as easy as you think.
Rather than spend 4 pages of posts going backwards and forwards as usual I'll just ask you again to find time to get online and play a few games against me. Who knows maybe we'll both learn something! |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1897
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:24 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: |
If he said 0% or 50%, I would resolve to ignore what he said because it would be completely stupid with regard to BPV. In the same way, if he priced a Fed FF at 500 pts, I would ignore it. There is a certain point where if something doesn't even come close to passing the "smell" test, it should be ignored. I am happy to say that the actual rules for FC are well written enough that I don't have anything that offends me to this extent.
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Again you are talking about something totally differently to me. I have asked you play games with me to test plasma, not cloaks. If we played roms stripped of their cloaks, to see how they fare with just the plasma then it doesn't matter whether you agree/disgaree with the points that the roms were given for their cloaks, they are the points they got, hence the remainder is what they are pointed for without them. Getting them for free, 15% or 50% may well be 'obviously' wrong, but that is utterly beside the point for the purpose of what I proposed. You don't go tweaking other variables when you are trying to ascertain where we currently stand as things are pointed.
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Since ISC plasma and PPD printed BPV won't change, we have to look for other answers.
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Again you are talking about something I am not. You may want to look for answers, for problems that may not exist. I want to look at where we are as things stand now. Until you do that then you are simply arguing about something without any data to back you up.
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If plasma is underpowered, the solution is to fix their BPV. There is definitely a breakpoint where plasma and non-plasma will be in equilibrium. That's simple common sense.
For example, I believe that a 450 pt Kzinti force will easily beat a 450 pt Rom force. I believe that a 1000 pt Rom force will easily beat a 450 pt Kzinti force. I believe that there is a certain value X where a 450 pt Kzinti force will be a relatively even match with a 450+X Rom force.
If you need data or proof to follow this reasoning, we probably don't have any room for discussion.
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Where did I ever suggest I don't understand adjusting BPV (I even said that would be the obvious solution if there were an issue). What I fail to see is your data that supports any of your fix. Again you are pre-judging. Again you proposing answers for problems that haven't even been shown to exist. Where is your data to show there will be no side effects. Where is your data to show that your fix applies to all plasma races?
Proposing fixes is meaninigless unless you are first prepared to put in the effort to show a problem, and what the problem is, and who it effects.
I did not propose we play games to test any supposed fix, but to test the state of plasma as it exists now. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 4:45 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | Your assumptions are in the very text above. You've assumed you are going to make mince meat of the roms (they didn't) |
Because the stingers must have fired during fade in/out.
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, you've assumed it is suboptimal to fire during fade in (it may under some circumstances and not others), |
Considering your opponent was letting you cloak in and killing a few stingers at a time and your ships weren't dying, I think it's a very safe assumption. A gatling averages 14.67 damage at 1 range and 1.33 damage at 5 range. A fusion averages 6.33 at 1 hex range and 1.83 at 5 hex range. So yes, it's pretty suboptimal firing during fade out.
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you've assumed that cloaking is a losing strategy (it wasn't), |
That's a pretty safe assumption unless the stinger player does something stupid like firing during fade out.
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you've assumed that stingers can't be sufficiently out manouvered by a cloaked ship (they must have been). |
I'll say it flat out. If a stinger with turn mode 1, slip mode 1, and a free HET who can decel at will and who has move advantage can be outmaneuvered by a cloaked Romulan, that's not the fault of the stinger. It's the fault of the player playing the stinger.
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You've underestimated what the opponent can do, that is a very bad start and hard to recover from half way through a game. |
No, I'm very realistic about what a ship under cloak can do. He can't do squat, and has to expose himself if he wants to do damage.
You are correct that if the cloak player can goad his opponent to wasting his shots, it can win. However, I'm assuming smart play from both sides.
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I sat down and looked very hard at the way roms work and how their rules interact with things like stingers before choosing romulans to play against that hydran force. |
And you also picked an opponent who would take the 3 avg damage shot over the 21 avg damage shot apparently.
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Could I beat well played romulans in such a match? quite possibly, but it wouldn't be nearly as easy as you think. |
That's because a well played romulan wouldn't cloak if it would result in stingers right on top of him. Most likely he'd try to keep the range open and pick off stingers a few at a time.
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Rather than spend 4 pages of posts going backwards and forwards as usual I'll just ask you again to find time to get online and play a few games against me. Who knows maybe we'll both learn something! |
I look forward to game results from your playtest with Savedfromwhat. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 5:05 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | Again you are talking about something totally differently to me. I have asked you play games with me to test plasma, not cloaks. If we played roms stripped of their cloaks, to see how they fare with just the plasma then it doesn't matter whether you agree/disgaree with the points that the roms were given for their cloaks, they are the points they got, hence the remainder is what they are pointed for without them. Getting them for free, 15% or 50% may well be 'obviously' wrong, but that is utterly beside the point for the purpose of what I proposed. You don't go tweaking other variables when you are trying to ascertain where we currently stand as things are pointed. |
I think it would matter greatly that we get the initial costs right. If we went with 50% for cloaks for example, would you really want to playtest games with CNHs at 132 pts or FHKs at 90 pts? I certainly wouldn't.
| storeylf wrote: |
Again you are talking about something I am not. You may want to look for answers, for problems that may not exist. I want to look at where we are as things stand now. Until you do that then you are simply arguing about something without any data to back you up. |
Nothing is stopping you from testing. IME, the only time plasma ever won was when they bolted everything at the target and got lucky. I've done Gorn vs Kzinti, Gorn vs Fed, Rom vs Fed, Rom vs Klingon, and Rom vs Kzinti.
Although there was the Battleship scenario in Briefing 1 where the Stalin was limited to base speed 8. The Roms won that scenario.
| storeylf wrote: |
Where did I ever suggest I don't understand adjusting BPV (I even said that would be the obvious solution if there were an issue). What I fail to see is your data that supports any of your fix. Again you are pre-judging. Again you proposing answers for problems that haven't even been shown to exist. Where is your data to show there will be no side effects. Where is your data to show that your fix applies to all plasma races?
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A lot of people have stated that there is a problem. There was a podcast in the other thread where people at Origins were discussing why nobody took plasma and the consensus was that plasma was too weak. Hardly anyone takes plasma at a tournament and I can't recall anyone winning with plasma at a tournament.
My fix obviously applies to all plasma races because all of them would get the discount unless they're paired with non-plasma races. If all of them get the same discount, they all benefit equally. This is far more feasible than trying to reprice each ship individually. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:00 pm Post subject: |
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http://recordings.talkshoe.com/rss17702.xml
Listen to episode 111 about 1 hour into the podcast. It has a great discussion between Paul Franz and Patrick Doyle on the weakness of plasma. |
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malleman
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 12 Jan 2008
Posts: 307
Location: Lafayette, LA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 7:32 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I don't take Romulans as prisoners. To easy to mistake for Vulcans.
_________________
Mars needs women |
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