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Federation Commander
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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 Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:17 pm Post subject: |
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I'd forgotten about special sensors in my analysis. Yeah, self-defense jamming makes a mockery of direct fire, forcing the attackers to bring a scout of their own. Especially on a base, which does not blind its own sensors (at least not in SFB).
Ships and shuttles in the same hex: Even if the attackers shoot down your shuttles, that's still damage not being applied to something important, so it's six of one and half a dozen of the other. The SB's weapons can easily bring down shields on attackers before they get to pointblank range, so you don't need to get your defending ships so close. Any damage through a down shield is good damage IMO...
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | | I'd forgotten about special sensors in my analysis. Yeah, self-defense jamming makes a mockery of direct fire, forcing the attackers to bring a scout of their own. Especially on a base, which does not blind its own sensors (at least not in SFB). |
And even with the scouts anti-jamming you need to be within 10 hexes of the target as I remember, so still a case of long ranged capability is neither here nor there. |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:08 pm Post subject: |
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| jmt wrote: | | storeylf wrote: | | Going beyond 600 pts is up for discussion, then you also get into what the SB has to defend itself with. |
Given the SB point cost for FC is based on no sensors, I wonder if the attacker should be a +10% to +15% bonus on his PV for fleets against Sensor channels.
Do the Sensors take the place of some heavy weapons on the SB or are they additional? |
The sensors are already on the SB card. the 'S' track. I'm not sure the cost was based on a lack of sensors, clearly at the point they printed the card it had the sensors. What were the SFB points for a SB? it wouldn't surprise me if it just had the SFB cost, which would have included sensors presumably.
Sensors are a BoM thing, the best counter appears to be BoM stuff as well - counter sensors or stuff like maulers and carriers. |
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jmt
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 394
Location: Plano, TX
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| Posted: Fri Jan 07, 2011 4:41 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | jmt wrote: | | storeylf wrote: | | Going beyond 600 pts is up for discussion, then you also get into what the SB has to defend itself with. |
Given the SB point cost for FC is based on no sensors, I wonder if the attacker should be a +10% to +15% bonus on his PV for fleets against Sensor channels.
Do the Sensors take the place of some heavy weapons on the SB or are they additional? |
The sensors are already on the SB card. the 'S' track. I'm not sure the cost was based on a lack of sensors, clearly at the point they printed the card it had the sensors. What were the SFB points for a SB? it wouldn't surprise me if it just had the SFB cost, which would have included sensors presumably.
Sensors are a BoM thing, the best counter appears to be BoM stuff as well - counter sensors or stuff like maulers and carriers. |
I think this is the right answer - the SFB cost was for a setting with not only maulers, carriers, and scouts, but various drone types, wild weasels, and other bits of chrome.
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jmt
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 10:04 am Post subject: |
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| jmt wrote: |
I think this is the right answer - the SFB cost was for a setting with not only maulers, carriers, and scouts, but various drone types, wild weasels, and other bits of chrome. |
Then again most ships seem to have just been ported directly over cost wise, the same could be said of them. All I am pointing out is that if one side is playing BoM stuff then the other side probably needs to consider it as well.
Ps One mans chrome is another mans rust  |
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jmt
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 394
Location: Plano, TX
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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You are quite correct, storyelf, on both counts. 
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jmt
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | And even with the scouts anti-jamming you need to be within 10 hexes of the target as I remember |
No, IIRC you need to be within 10 hexes of the unit you're lending counter-jamming support to, not the target (that distance is something like 15 or 25 hexes, can't remember). It seems futile to me to be debating a bunch of rules which we can't even remember the details of 
In any case, I think the scout rules you were using are broken. They were only playtest rules, were superseded by the Hydran Attack rules.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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Targ
Lieutenant SG
Joined: 02 Nov 2006
Posts: 125
Location: York U.K.
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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The reason we were using these rules along with those that were in Hydrans attack was that the one in H/A appeared to be in a condensed and abridged form, could be wrong  . What we did say was if the H/A rules contradicted the earlier ones they were the ones we followed. |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2011 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: |
In any case, I think the scout rules you were using are broken. They were only playtest rules, were superseded by the Hydran Attack rules. |
Yup - playtest. We played, and tested. The hydran attack ones explicitly say they are purely there to give the Fed scout something to do, and that "more elaborate BoM rules will be needed for other scout units". So hydran attack are not the playtest BoM sensor rules as I read it.
As I said earlier the scout rules are a bit all over at the moment. I'm aware of that, but playing what ever set will at least result in some sort of playtesting going on, which can then be posted on for feedback.
My take so far, the Sensors really make the starbase feel like it should feel - tough. I'm not convinced the self jamming +2 shift is going to be unbalancing, if the SB (or other ship) has sensors then attackers presumably have access to scouts etc as well, which allows them to jam the base or counter jam etc. In a full BoM game they will also have things like maulers and carriers, again good anti base units. 4 power a pop does rack up if you need it several times a turn. I feel the +1 jamming on friendlies should get the 'seekers miss on a 6', this is jamming not EM. The extra drone control option seems naff - I had a kzinti base of all things but couldn't use that option as it can already control 12 drones (which precludes that option), maybe that should be useable no matter how many drones you can normally control? |
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 4 power a pop does rack up if you need it several times a turn. |
I read the rule as giving +2 for the entire turn, or until the channel is blinded or disabled. (That's how it works in SFB. I don't see anything in the Captain's Log rules suggesting that it only lasts one impulse.) Read that way, with the channel unblindable and only costing the SB 4 points of power and one channel to protect itself for the entire turn, it's buh-roken.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 9:25 am Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | | Quote: | | 4 power a pop does rack up if you need it several times a turn. |
I read the rule as giving +2 for the entire turn, or until the channel is blinded or disabled. (That's how it works in SFB. I don't see anything in the Captain's Log rules suggesting that it only lasts one impulse.) Read that way, with the channel unblindable and only costing the SB 4 points of power and one channel to protect itself for the entire turn, it's buh-roken. |
I missed the entire turn bit. We were playing it as 1 impulse like the other sensor options were all geared for (especially in HA). I suppose the problem there is sensor rules are not just for bases, 4 power a pop is small change for base, but not so for a scout ship. |
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4095
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Ah, another difference between the two versions ...
In the Communique/CL rules, the protection (either self or friendly) is for the entire turn. In HA, the protection is only for one impulse.
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