Federation Commander

[storeylf]

An individual will get better, but probably only up to certain level. But usually by average we mean the majority. Enough experience to know the rules well, basic tactics, think a bit on their feet, but still make mistakes/misjudgemts or lack the patience or forethought to pull of some tactics that they 'understand' is what I tend to think as averagely competent.

I assume you see your self in the higher level category you woud like to balance the game to? I don't class myself as much more than 'averagely competent', and most of those I have played about the same. I've won plenty of games with plasma. ergo I think it is balanced for that level of game. Would I lose to the high level competitive players - almost certainly, then again I'd probably lose with non-plasma as well (as I just did to Patrick doyle the other night). I'm not disputing the argument that at that level there may be an issue with plasma, but what goes for high level play doesn't neccessarily apply lower down the skill level. I do believe that a lot of more average/casual players would find speed 40 plasma overpowered.

I also note that other top (as in very top) tourney players do not think faster plasma is a useful fix at that level of play, they think overload is needed. It may be that you and them are then in the same boat as you and I. i.e differences in play level are biasing your percepetions (as it is mine), speed might fix your level of play, but leave top players unhappy that plasma is still borked, and my average level unhappy that plasma is now borked the other way.

I have no ideas what was said at Origins and have no idea whether SVC sees FC as a game for more casual play aimed at that market, or is happy to see it become more 'hardcore' ala SFB. My personal opinion is that there is SFB for serious hardcore competitve play and FC for those after a much less intense game. I wouldn't say don't play competitvely, but accept that the game is not aimed at that market and you may well find imbalances.

[mojo jojo]

So you're basing "plasma is balanced" on nothing more than your play experience and gut feeling? That's fine, but I don't see how you can possibly translate that into the "average majority" feeling that way.

My play experience and gut feeling gives a completely different result, and based on feedback on this site, so does the play experience and gut feeling of a lot of people. Why can't my and their experiences be considered the "average majority"?

As far as my play level, I don't know since I don't have a wide enough circle of opponents (unlike ASL where there are multiple large tournaments for me to test my skills). However, while I suspect that someone like Patrick Doyle would clobber me in an even game (at least the first few times), I'm pretty sure I've got my anti-plasma tactics down well enough to beat him routinely if I'm Kzinti and he's Rom/Gorn.

As I said before, I don't know if speed 40 is the right fix, but I'm pretty sure that A fix is necessary.

[duxvolantis]

[Monty]

IMHO, players at the casual end of the skill spectrum should be less sensitive to balance changes targeted at more competitive play.

This thread brings back memories of a similar issue in the original SFC when the developers were considering increasing the speed of plasmas due to balance issues. The debate was quite passionate.

[duxvolantis]

[pipboy101]

I have found that the use of plasma is more of a tactic than a weapon. I know that sounds odd but here me out. Plasma at speed 32, while it is the fastest object in the game it is more useful to make an opponent wear themselves down while you do you sniping with phasers. With the option of bolting it makes an opponent weary of getting close.

So I have found that on has an 4 hex radius that pushes most experence players away if they are doing 24. I figure to double that range for every speed step below. so the threat of plasma is also as deadly as the plasma itself. This pilloe of space has helped my Gorn more than hurt as it has allowed me to force the enemy to react to my movements with out firing a shot. Now if a person is not "cooperative" a drop of a single plasma torp their way soon has them singing my tune.

I don't worry about the speed 32 since it really is more than deadly once a turn or two of shooting has already happened. Even in the TV show they were able to run the torp out to a non-crunch strength when it was fired very close to the ship. So by increasing the speed of the plasma torp you are in effect making a near "I win" weapon. Yes if you get hit in the first impulse of flight you most likely deserved the strike. A speed 40 weapon IMHO would slow the game down since everyone would saber dance any plasma armed vessel. This means it would be a death of a 1000 cuts (impulses) since no one would be willing to close in due to never being able to keep pace with a torp. So, by have speed 40 any plasma armed race could reach across the board, extend their hand with realtive confidence and say "I win either because you will not out run my death or you will die of boredum. Either way. Good game, I win."

I am not saying the idea doesn't have merit, it does. But Plasma is more of a tool than a weapon system IMHO. Take what I have said with a grain of salt and discussions like this is one of the few ways that we all can improve any game.
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Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
Everything I learned in life I learned from Pipboy!

You can also find me on DAKKADAKKA.COM as Pipboy101. Soon to be posting battle reports for FC and SFM there.

[IKerensky]

[pipboy101]

My comment was stating as a base speed. I do understand that most vessels can hit 32 but at a high cost. That high cost of dealing with plasma torps is a great tactic since it can push an enemy vessel many hexs out of position. If someone gets within 1 impulse of a plasma armed vessel under 24 they deserve to take the hit. So a a plasma race player should look at the speed 32 as a tactial tool to control enemy movement.
_________________
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
Everything I learned in life I learned from Pipboy!

You can also find me on DAKKADAKKA.COM as Pipboy101. Soon to be posting battle reports for FC and SFM there.

[storeylf]

It's a good point Mojo, I can't know exactly where I or the people I play sit on any player ability curve. I'm pretty sure that we are reasonably competent, with decades of wargaming experience and a few years of FC play. But equally your argument seems largely based on what happens at a competitive tourney level of play, not really my definition of your average player ability. But from the outside looking in, the SFB player base seems dominated by the tourney style competitive players, maybe you are right and FC is as well (they just don't actually play the tourneys?).

In many ways I find your example ironic, Kzinti I know were seen as overpowered by many here, though again none of us locally could understand why. The idea that speed 24 drones were overpowered but speed 32 plasma needed a speed boost always confused us. In our games drones are often ignored and either run out of fuel or are still chasing when the games ends. The game had to really ramp up to serious drone numbers before they became something to worry about. It always seemed far more challenging to successfully beat plasma, you did have to turn away, often using a HET (and then somehow pull around whilst being shot in the back aimed at power), or you had to use a lot more firepower to shoot it down. With drones you merely sped past them and waved as they turned to follow. The way your AAR reads all I could think was; why on earth would a competent player drop EM to shoot all those phasers at drones? Why did he lose a ship to drones from a doomed BC? What was I missing in your game that you failed to mention? I doubt we would find Kzinti vs Gorn as one sided as you seem to think. Maybe that is another aspect of higher level competitve play, drone tactics step up a gear and they become tougher to deal with, though presumably not so tough that non-drone races win at origins.

[IKerensky]

Amen Storeylf

In our group we have the exact same experience with drones as you describe... perhaps we should try to use Tractor Beam more, but it wont change for Plasma.

@Pipboy : Did you notice that it is proportionnaly cheaper to go from 24 to 24+ than from 8 to 8+ ?

About plasma I feel the trouble is more perceptible than for the drones, this is because the prime user of plasma are the Romulans. What we expect (from fluff) is for them to cloack, approach, launch surprise plasma attack then flee.

The trouble is that in game, the surprised ship can just HET, then he will never get hit by the plasma because he can outrun it.

I think that is why Plasma speed trouble is more related to ship acceleration and speed limitation than actual Plasma speed... or player skill.

[mojo jojo]

[mojo jojo]

[duxvolantis]

[Kang]

Part of the problem with Pseudos, as with a lot of SFB rules, is that they were added piecemeal over a series of expansions to the Designer's Edition, then incorporated into the full ruleset in the Commander's Edition and finally the Captain's Edition.

The original SFB did not have pseudos, in the same way that it did not have a lot of the things that were added in and then removed for Fed Commander - and SFB was still a playable game back then. This is why Fed Commander is so playable - because it does not have all those silly extras. Pseudos would just be the thin end of the wedge if they were re-included; SFB was 'pruned' severely to make it into FC and with good reason. I can remember these pseudos turning up in the expansions and thinking, 'what's that all about, then?'

It's been said before - if someone wants to play SFB, go play SFB. Or at least put stuff into Borders of Madness. But let's not spoil Fed Commander, eh?
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[duxvolantis]