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Proposed changes to cloaking
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ncrcalamine
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Joined: 23 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 6:31 am    Post subject: Play test new drone rules Reply with quote

Played a play test game
Firehawk, 2 war eagles vs 2 fed ncl and a fed drone battle cruised a bcg

Turn 1 feds speed 8, roms speed16. romulans bolted the 2 r and 2 s torps at range 9. net result down front #1 shield in ncl with about 5 internals
No internals or shield damage or roms, battery soaked it all.

Turn 2 cloaked
Part way thru turn 2 firehawk emergency decel to cancel drone swarm
Fleet split ncl with damaged shield goes after 1 war eagle other 2 ships go after other war eAgle.
no romulan damage 5 damage to war eagle rear shield 4. With 2 ships on it.

Turn3 Fire hawk and war eagle uncloak and go after ncl with damaged shield. Other war eagle stays cloaked with 2 ship on it about12 hexes from other ships. Net result after. Turn 3 ncl with shield damage shields 156 down, about 15 internals hit, enough power to go spped 24 in turn 4 with evasion and 2 impulses worth of acceleration. War eagle takes 24 damage on shield 1 3 overloads and 1 regular torp at range 3. Nclmis flanked in rear by both romulans. War eagle heted.

Turn 4
2 r's reloaded as s,2 s reloaded. Firehawk drops shield 2 on ncl, war eagle does 15 shield damage on shield
4 on ncl then shield 4 on ncl takes 76 points plasma from. Firehawk -boom

Game called

The new rules allowed the roms to ignore the drones. One drone swarm was shot down In turn 1. One swarm was half shot up by lone war eagle in turn 4. Swarm from turn 2 was stopped by emergency decel.
Cloak was insturmental in roms being able to reload and split fed fleet.

New rules questions
Is the range limitatin of4 and 8 from the drones or the drone controlling ship. Drones is easier controlling ship more logical. For plasma it should be
From the plasma itself.

Does a voided cloak allow new seeking weapons to be launched at the ship with the voided cloak

A ship that fully cloaks but has a voided cloak does not cause seeking weapons to drop correct?

Esg vs cloak should do full damage to the cloaked ship. Esgs should also void the cloak for any other volleys comming in that impulse. The cloak should be voided until the end of the launch phase. Can a ship with a voided cloak be tractored. Can the lyran launch suicide shuttles a the void cloaked ship.

When does the void in a voided cloak end.
After launch
At start if impulse
After direct fire phase


Thanks nicole



Other war eagle had uncloaked
15 or so damage
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 2:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Play test new drone rules Reply with quote

ncrcalamine wrote:
New rules questions
Is the range limitatin of4 and 8 from the drones or the drone controlling ship. Drones is easier controlling ship more logical. For plasma it should be
From the plasma itself.

The intent was the distance from the ship to the seeking weapon, regardless of type of seeking weapon. That is, in general, how it usually works, so I would be hesitant to change that.

Quote:
Does a voided cloak allow new seeking weapons to be launched at the ship with the voided cloak

Most definitely yes!

Quote:
A ship that fully cloaks but has a voided cloak does not cause seeking weapons to drop correct?

If a ship cloaks with an immediately voided cloak, yes, this is correct. You still, of course, get the damage modifier.

Quote:
Esg vs cloak should do full damage to the cloaked ship. Esgs should also void the cloak for any other volleys comming in that impulse. The cloak should be voided until the end of the launch phase.

I'll have to check with SFB to see if ESG damage is reduced. Sadly, I can easily argue either way. Let's go with No for now.

Quote:
Can a ship with a voided cloak be tractored.

Oh, most definitely! And when tractored, the cloak will be instantly re-voided every impulse until the tractor is released. A tractored cloaked ship is in a very dangerous situation!

Quote:
Can the lyran launch suicide shuttles a the void cloaked ship.

Most definitely. In fact, any type of seeking weapon can be launced at a voided cloaked ship.

Quote:
When does the void in a voided cloak end.
After launch
At start if impulse
After direct fire phase

That rule is completely unchanged. A voided cloak is un-voided during the Other Functions Phase of the next impulse. (Well, the duration changes, of course, but the other aspects do not.)


Quote:
Thanks nicole

And thank you for doing the playtests!
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ESG damage is not reduced in SFB.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:
ESG damage is not reduced in SFB.

Thanks Paul.

There you go: The "No," stands.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The collection of rules Mike put together really tracks SFB cloak about as well as FC can manage.

ESGs, by the way, again taking SFB as a guidepost, should most definitely not void the cloak for all other direct fire weapons that impulse. They should, just as in SFB, do full damage, regardless of the cloak, and allow the ship some opportunity to "maintain lockon" - which in Fed Com is simulated by continuous voiding (e.g. through tractor beams).

You do not want to make it so that an ESG means the ship is better off not cloaking at all. The speed restrictions mean that ESGs will already be very easy to deploy against cloaked ships. Making it void the cloak for all other weapons used on the same direct fire step is just too much.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's how I believe it has been ruled already. Even without the potential modifications, the effect of voiding the cloak does not take effect until after that Direct-Fire Weapons Phase. This is because all fire is considered simultaneous, and the other fire would not be able to take advantage of the voiding until the next impulse.

So, with the modification, the ESG would void the cloak on Impulse X, doing full damage. Any other weapons fire that same Impulse would be through a full, un-voided cloak. However, tractors could be used on it that Impulse, and seeking weapons could be fired at it that Impulse. On Impulse X+1, the cloak is still voided during that Direct-Fire Weapons Phase, a tractor could be established in the Other Functions Phase. If no tractor is established, the voiding stops immediately in that Other Functions Phase, and no seeking weapons can be fired in Impulse X+1 because the cloak is no longer voided.

If a tractor is established in Impulse X or X+1, then that would keep the cloak voided for the entire duration of the tractor.
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The_Rock
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike,
Right. I was just replying to Nicole's suggestion that this should be changed.
-Paul
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2012 10:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ESG vs cloak was covered here once upon a time, as per MWests note above.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Played a couple of small games with Roms the other week, but that was against an opponent becoming ever increasingly inebriated over the course of the games. Less said about those games the better (from my opponents point of view Smile )

Played a 450 pt game last night (not a tourney map though) under more sober conditions against my opponent who wants to see the new cloak rules in action. My 2 King Eagles and 2 Snipes against the Feds with a Plasma armed dreadnaught, a drone cruiser and a Police cutter.

Early on I used the cloak to shed a bunch of seekers against one ship, and was able to plan our initial approach knowing that I could cloak just prior to photon range (if needed) without worrying about seekers too much.

I was able to cloak later on for rearming again without worrying about seekers, and when one of my eagles got massively smacked it was able to cloak out long enough to avoid being finished off even though the Feds still had a load of drones available. At least until the next turn anyway when it didn't have the power to keep up the cloak.


Couple of questions:

1. Usng ED to drop speed will cause a recalculation of whether the drones drop. But does this happen at the point of ED or later in the impulse (during defensive fire or cloak activity?)

At one point I wanted to cloak as my good Eagle faced 2 waves of drones coming from either side, They would be too close to drop at the point of cloak, so an ED would be needed. But that would only work if they droppped at the point of ED, other wise they would get another 3 moves and impact.


2. When exactly does void end. It ends during the other other functions stage of the following impulse, but is that before or after the next cloak step. This may be relevant depending on when seeker checks are done. If I void my self during Fade out, then I will lose the void during the next other functions when I would normally cloak, Am I voided at the point of cloak, or before the point of cloak. If I am voided at the point of cloak does the subsequent loss of void trigger the seekers to drop tracking instead?

NB the above question is probably only going to happen in a very specific scenario, I was cloaked and working out whether I could safely uncloak, if that triggered a launch I would accel to keep range to seekers (voiding the fade) then recloak, then have the void end as I actually cloaked. But wasn't sure on the timing of void/cloak and whether it mattered (if void ending triggers seeker drop at the point it happens). It also occured to me this morning that even this scenario may be moot, as I forgot that uncloaking and recloaking it self wipes a void. But a clarification of void end might be useful.


Over all the cloak was definatly better, and was something that I felt was useable for such things as rearming, avoiding a short range photon volley (with a bit of planning ahead), getting a crippled ship out the way, all without worrying about seekers, and even as an anti seeker mechanism in its own right. It does not, however, feel unblancing so far due to the limits of being cloaked, i.e. speed limit, and the delay coming back out of cloak.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2012 2:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
1. Usng ED to drop speed will cause a recalculation of whether the drones drop. But does this happen at the point of ED or later in the impulse (during defensive fire or cloak activity?)

At one point I wanted to cloak as my good Eagle faced 2 waves of drones coming from either side, They would be too close to drop at the point of cloak, so an ED would be needed. But that would only work if they droppped at the point of ED, other wise they would get another 3 moves and impact.

Actually, that is a good question. I hadn't actually thought that through. Let's go with the moment of ED.

This, of course, only applies if the cloak is fully active. If done during fade-out, or when the cloak is voided, then the check would be done when the cloak becomes effective (or is un-voided). But in this case, it isn't the ED that helps so much as the fact that the ship is now Stopped.


Quote:
2. When exactly does void end. It ends during the other other functions stage of the following impulse, but is that before or after the next cloak step. This may be relevant depending on when seeker checks are done. If I void my self during Fade out, then I will lose the void during the next other functions when I would normally cloak, Am I voided at the point of cloak, or before the point of cloak. If I am voided at the point of cloak does the subsequent loss of void trigger the seekers to drop tracking instead?

It happens during the cloak step. I would think that it is all fairly simultaneous.

So, if a ship has a voided cloak, and it has seekers targeted on it, then the cloak becomes active again during that cloak step and the check on seeking weapons is again made (making them go away if they are far enough for the cloaked ship's speed).
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Spacecowboy87
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't read every post in this thread (not enough Ritalin in the whole world), but I recall someone on page one saying any change needed to be simple. Did this ever come up-- the cloaked ship shakes off the seekers by changing direction? Say that the seekers lose the ship after its second heading change, turn or slip. It may not be true to SFB, but I think its in step with the Original Series when on more than one occasion a ship evades pursuit by cloaking and changing heading. Its simple and it puts it in the hands of the Captain, not a die roll.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting idea. That would give seekers back their ability to change the directional movement of ships.

Sideslips wouldn't suffice.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2012 1:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, changes have not been made.

However, we are discussing potential changes that are listed in the third post on page 5. The seekers would be flushed based on the speed of the cloaked ship when the cloak becomes fully active. The suggestion works this way in order to better mimic the way it works in SFB.

What I plan on doing is waiting to get some more playtest reports, then I will take the suggestions (after having been tweaked, if necessary) and propose them to Steve with the evidence gathered.
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storeylf
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Played another game last night.

My War eagle and battle hawk vs a gorn DD and HDD.

Cloak played a fairly interesting part in this game. The war eagle is rather short on power, but the ability to avoid plasma via cloak allowed it to chug along at speed 16 (whilst the Gorn were forced to keep speed 24) and still safely get to within range 4 knowing that it was safe from a plasma launch . At that point the Gorn had to decide whether to launch knowing it would miss, or not launch and miss the chance to launch (and maybe end up running from an R himself).

In the event he launched a single G to make me cloak, I was able turn away and cloak knowing that he wouldn't then launch more plasma. At that point I had the choice to ED and avoid the incoming G altogether, or just take the half damage, and then uncloak as he overran me to hit him in the rear (which is what I did).

Whilst there was only one cloak action, at several points I had the option to cloak that I wouldn't normally have had, which was nice, and that made the Gorns position a bit more complicated.

Apart from the cloak it was an amusing game, the Gorn DD is so weak! on the other hand the War eagle is so short on power (and a 1 shot wonder).

So far the cloak changes have been nice, and my main opponent has liked them as well.
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Krellex
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The lesson I learned the hard way was that against the Gorn, you BETTER stay outside of carronade range while cloaked.
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