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Early Years Federation Commander
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Nerroth
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1556
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's a shot at 40; take it (or not) as you will.


-----

Federation (5)
YDN
YCA
YCL
YDD
YFF

Klingon (3)
C4
D4
F4

Romulan (4)
YVL
YWB
YHK
YSN

Kzinti (4)
YDN
YCS
YCL
YFF

Gorn (4)
YDN
YCL
YDD
YFF

Tholian (2)
YCOM
YLCM

Orion (2)
YCR
YLR

Hydran (4)
YDN
GRN
YDD
VOL

Lyran (4)
YDN
YCA
YDD
YFF

Paravian (4)
YDN
YCA
YDD
YFF

Carnivon (4)
YDN
YCA
YDD
YFF

Total = 40.

-----

Shocking to see me leave the ISC out, I know...

There are no generic units in that list; but perhaps they could be added to Communique, or a future Captain's Log?


EDIT: For the boosters, I would still suggest grouping the empires based on regional rivalries; one for the Feds and Klingons, a second for the eastern powers, and a third for the "distant kingdoms".
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Really, you can drop the Tholians and Orions. Those two Tholian ships are totally ancillary, and they already have plenty of ships as it is. Better to just skip them. The Orions occur so ridiculously late in the era, that they can be left out without much difficulty or effect. They can be the ones thrown into Communique or CL.

In their place, add in the Dock, Base, UFL/UFS, and the Space Boar. Otherwise, I like that list.

As another tweak, to even the numbers out, delete one of YCL/YDD from the Feds (which may be automatic as it may not be possible to do the YDD because of licensing issues) and add in the E2 for the Klingons. What? There is no E2? Well, there will eventually be, what it looks like is totally obvious based on the E1, and it would give the Klingons a fourth combat hull.

That would leave the following major ships for Communique/CL over time: Fed YCL/YDD; Orion YCR, YLR; Lyran CL; Paravian CL; Carnivon CL; ISC YDN, YCA, YCL, YDD, YFF.

But, as a conclusion, yes, Gary is correct that we can probably compress a very usable set of Y-hulls down to 40 ships.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the base Attack, we could do this (assuming my modifications):
Fed CA, FF; Klingon D4, F4; Kzinti YCS, YFF; Lyran YCA, YFF; Carnivon YCA, YFF; Hydran GRN, VOL; Gorn YCL; Paravian YCA; Base, Space Boar.

The Boosters then would be, as much as possible, organized by empire. (In this case, I completely agree with Gary on grouping by empire.)

Oh, one more possible tweak from Gary's list: The Paravian YCA may need to be subbed with the YCL depending on balance. Since their only "real" opponent, the Gorn, only have a light cruiser, rather than heavy cruiser, the Paravian ship list should be balanced to the Gorn selection.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't like the idea of ditching the Orions completely; if the Middle Years could be stretched to allow the Romulans to use their early Smarba ships, why not allow the YCR and YLR to be made available?

(Not least since we have a YCR card already, and would only need a new one for the YLR.)

Plus, in the territory where the Y-era raiders are most commonly found in, the local empire (the Romulans) drag their heels on moving past their own Y-ships (since they don't get to the final pre-Smarba designs until 2540).


-----

But, to show what Mike's list would look like:

General (3)
YDK - B1
YBS - M
UFL/UFS - B1

Federation (4)
YDN - B1
YCA - M
YCL - B1
YFF - M

Klingon (4)
C4 - B1
D4 - M
F4 - M
E2 - B1

Romulan (4)
YVL - B2
YWB - B1
YHK - B2
YSN - B1

Kzinti (4)
YDN - B3
YCS - M
YCL - B3
YFF - M

Gorn (4)
YDN - B2
YCL - M
YDD - B2
YFF - B2

Hydran (4)
YDN - B3
GRN - M
YDD - B3
VOL - M

Lyran (4)
YDN - B3
YCA - M
YDD - B3
YFF - M

Paravian (4)
YDN - B2
YCL - M
YDD - B2
YFF - B2

Carnivon (4)
YDN - B3
YCA - M
YDD - B3
YFF - M

Monster (1)
Space Boar - M

Total = 40.


-----

I added "M" for the main module, and "B1", "B2", and "B3" for the boosters (one for centre, one for east, another for west).

The only problem is that two of the Romulans might have to go in B1; there isn't enough room for them to fit neatly with the Gorns and Paravians. (They could count as the ships which attcked the Federation in Y110; or perhaps those watching the Tholian border, or flushing out Orion pirate kingdoms.)
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary,

Ignoring the Orions for a moment, think about this: you and I just agreed on 85% of the list out of the chute, and 5% more were minor quibbles. And we only really have a disagreement on 5%! I am impressed. Smile

As for the Orions, no, I don't want to cut them. But, if we don't, then you have to drop some combination of the bases, freighters, or monster. That is quite doable, but you have to determine what is more useful most often. (I do really like the idea of including the only EY monster in the module, though.)

Cramming three SFB modules into 40 ships isn't easy and there will be some nasty compromises.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only question I would have is this; is the YDK big enough to need a double-sized Ship Card? It is a forerunner to a starbase, after all.

(I ran into a similar issue over in the LMC thread, with the Maghadim Starbase; it would need to be double-sized, so can't be counted on the regular list.)

Iff the YDK won't fit neatly onto a single-sized card, it may need to get bumped in place of something else.

(In that event, and if the YCR was still not viable, what about a YFT or YAP; or even a YF-H?)
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I thought about that issue on the dock after my posts. It may indeed be too big and, if so, would have to be immediately struck.

I had actually thought about some of those other civilian craft before settling on the Space Boar, but I thought the Space Boar was too good to pass up. Smile

So, if the dock doesn't fit, that would leave an opening for several other items. However, there is no reason to figure it out now, as it could all change if we get the chance to move forward. Dock or no, we have a good list to work from and, even if there are some changes, the decision can be made then. No reason to finalize something that might never happen, and is guaranteed to change at least some even if it does.

So, I can sit here and dream that I will eventually see Early Years Attack!
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jeffery smith
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

well both lists are do able as i see it. but if you want an orion than i suggest using mikes list, drop the YDK and replacing it with the YCR. i believe that to do the YDK without complaints of crowding it would need to be a "full" size card in which case it could go into an "early years" issue of communique.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay, for completeness' sake:

-----

General (2)
YBS - B1
UFL/UFS - B1

Federation (4)
YDN - B1
YCA - M
YCL - B1
YFF - M

Klingon (4)
C4 - B1
D4 - M
F4 - M
E2 - B1

Romulan (4)
YVL - B2
YWB - B1
YHK - B2
YSN - B1

Kzinti (4)
YDN - B3
YCS - M
YCL - B3
YFF - M

Gorn (4)
YDN - B2
YCL - M
YDD - B2
YFF - B2

Orion (1)
YCR - M

Hydran (4)
YDN - B3
GRN - M
YDD - B3
VOL - M

Lyran (4)
YDN - B3
YCA - M
YDD - B3
YFF - M

Paravian (4)
YDN - B2
YCL - M
YDD - B2
YFF - B2

Carnivon (4)
YDN - B3
YCA - M
YDD - B3
YFF - M

Monster (1)
Space Boar - M

Total = 40.


-----

Looks good to me.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I vote to move the Orions to communique, but that's just me.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Duly noted.

In that case, perhaps another civilian hull instead?

EDIT: revised as of 24 Sep 2012, to match the 19+(3x7) layout mentioned elsewhere.

-----

General (3)
YBS - M
UFL/UFS - B1
YFT/YCT - B1

Federation (4)
YDN - B1
YCA - M
YCL - B1
YFF - M

Klingon (4)
C4 - B1
D4 - M
F4 - M
E2 - B1

Romulan (4)
YVL - B2
YWB - M
YHK - M
YSN - B1

Kzinti (4)
YDN - B3
YCS - M
YCL - M
YFF - M

Gorn (4)
YDN - B2
YCL - M
YDD - B2
YFF - B2

Hydran (4)
YDN - B3
GRN - M
YDD - B3
VOL - M

Lyran (4)
YDN - B3
YCA - M
YDD - B3
YFF - M

Paravian (4)
YDN - B2
YCL - M
YDD - B2
YFF - B2

Carnivon (4)
YDN - B3
YCA - M
YDD - B3
YFF - M

Monster (1)
Space Boar - M

Total = 40.


-----
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Last edited by Nerroth on Mon Sep 24, 2012 9:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe we can bring the YDD back, if it can be included under the licensing restrictions.

Regardless, I think we have shown that we can build an Attack/Booster set with 40 ships that shows the setting and gives a good selection of ships to use. Now it is just a matter of waiting to see if it is compelling enough to eventually add to the list after other projects are taken care of.

Until then, there is not much we can do other than dream of a finished product ...
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, one thing that could be talked about in the meantime is how well the pre-existing Early Years ships (and rules needed to make non-ported-over SSDs work) fly in Federation Commander already.

Are the Y-era Ship Cards able to work well in the FC game engine? Do they perform more or less in line with their counterparts in SFB? (Not least if one pits them against the ships of the early Holdfast.) Are there any quirks that stand out more, or less, than in SFB; such as the way in which Y-era Feds manage their photon re-arming?

And ultimately, are these ships and rules fun to fly on the tabletop?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just for the record, the rules are in Captain's Log 39 and Captain's Log 39 Supplemental. I believe they are the full set of rules that would be needed to operate Early Years ships. Given the above ship lists, it would amount to four pages of rules, plus another few pages for ship descriptions and comments.

The Fed YCA, Klingon D4, Kzinti YCS, and Lyran YCA are in CL39.
The Hydran GRN(YCA), Romulan WB, Gorn YCL, and Orion YCR are in CL39S.
The Hydran YCC is in Communique #44.
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Sllarr
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK. Here is a different idea.

With SFB module C6 on its way (General War Carnivons and Paravians) couldn't we port these ships to FC instead ? That way we would bring these two races to FC without the need to have Early Year versions of every single empire already in the game.

As somebody who discovered the SFU through Fed Com and never played SFB I fail to see the appeal of having different era versions of every ship of every empire all over again. I would much ratter have a product like C6 with different races and different weapons to fight the ships I am already familiar with. I suspect other players that discovered the SFU after 2005 would have a similar opinion.

This is why Briefing #2 is the only FC product I did NOT buy.

On the other hand, the possibility of pre-Federation fleets battling each otehr (Vulcan, Andorians, Earth, etc) seems very interesting.
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