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Early Years Federation Commander
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 21, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I fully expect the C6 empires to be brought into Federation Commander at some point. However, I would think we need to see the published ships in SFB first. I would be stunned if they tried to do a parallel effort of some sort. That is, BTW, a very valid discussion, but this is not the right spot for it.

As for the Early Years, the point is not to get the Carnivons and Paravians into Federation Commander. The point is to get Early Years ships into Federation Commander. Some people like the idea, some people don't. Apparently, you are in the camp who doesn't like that. Quite frankly, those of that opinion have probably already won. But those of us who actually like the Early Years will still hope we get the shot to do it.
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krakonos
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 12:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am also someone who has gotten into FC directly from the TV series and never played SFB (so pardon my ignorance of the greater Star Fleet Universe). Even though I am also more interested in new empires, I am still very interested in the early years for 3 reasons: Vulcans, Vulcans, and Andorians.

In fact, when I heard that there was such a thing as the early years I started doing all kind of searches for Vulcan ships and when we might see them in FC. As I was searching, I kept thinking what systems a Vulcan ship would posses. Thematically I thought that special sensors were obvious and then maybe phasers due to there versatility. Well, on one of the threads I found that in SFB they have exactly that! This was weeks ago and I still think how cool that was.

And yes, I know about the argument that Vulcans serve on Federation ships etc. I just want to be constructive and offer a view point of someone (and yes I know I may be a sample size of 1) who has not played SFU games for years. Besides, if you cut the Romulans (a logical move) at least put in their close relatives.

Thanks for listening and for the great game,

Martin
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see the appeal of the warp-refitted (or warp-driven) era, in terms of how diverse the various Alpha navies were at the time; both the Feds and ISC still had plenty of pre-unified planetary fleets in service, the likes of the Kzintis and Lyrans had ships with very different hull layouts compared to their Y-era successors, and the Romulans had not quite slipped so far off the pace technologically as they did in later decades.

On the other hand, doing products with the various Fed National Guard ships (or the five pre-ISC planetary navies) would likely need a lot more space to flesh out properly.


You'd probably have to offer a smaller cross-section of the Octant per release for the W-era; perhaps with more explicit groupings into different sub-settings (so one list covering the early ISC, another showing the Fed National Guards, another grouping the ironclads of the "distant kingdoms" together, and so on).


Although, one (very) long-term hope might be if Mongoose decide to take ACtA:SF into other SFU settings (new eras and/or locations); which in turn could perhaps offer an opportunity to see the likes of the Vulcans and Andorians get their pre-Star Fleet ships in miniature form that way. Should such a project ever exist, that could perhaps help get the ball rolling on the FC side of things.

But then, it's still an open question as to whether or not Mongoose would want to go there at all; and, even if they did, that any one particular setting (Early Years, X-ships, Omega, LMC, or some such) would end up making the cut. So, I probably wouldn't recommend holding one's breath on that score.
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jeffery smith
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 2:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

i miss the days of federation captains having to watch their "6" for klingons or playing "peek-a-boo" while working to get to that sweet spot to fire a plasma R into. nothing against the GW era but the Early years is where legends are made.

if we go with Svc's suggestion then i would have no problem with adding "civies". the YDD would be nice but could be lived without for awhile.

so we would have the Orions and the YDK in communique then correct.
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krakonos
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nerroth wrote:
I can see the appeal of the warp-refitted (or warp-driven) era, in terms of how diverse the various Alpha navies were at the time; both the Feds and ISC still had plenty of pre-unified planetary fleets in service, the likes of the Kzintis and Lyrans had ships with very different hull layouts compared to their Y-era successors, and the Romulans had not quite slipped so far off the pace technologically as they did in later decades.

On the other hand, doing products with the various Fed National Guard ships (or the five pre-ISC planetary navies) would likely need a lot more space to flesh out properly.


You'd probably have to offer a smaller cross-section of the Octant per release for the W-era; perhaps with more explicit groupings into different sub-settings (so one list covering the early ISC, another showing the Fed National Guards, another grouping the ironclads of the "distant kingdoms" together, and so on).


Although, one (very) long-term hope might be if Mongoose decide to take ACtA:SF into other SFU settings (new eras and/or locations); which in turn could perhaps offer an opportunity to see the likes of the Vulcans and Andorians get their pre-Star Fleet ships in miniature form that way. Should such a project ever exist, that could perhaps help get the ball rolling on the FC side of things.

But then, it's still an open question as to whether or not Mongoose would want to go there at all; and, even if they did, that any one particular setting (Early Years, X-ships, Omega, LMC, or some such) would end up making the cut. So, I probably wouldn't recommend holding one's breath on that score.


Your are probably right, looks like I will have to wait a while for the "FC: Vulcans Defend" module Wink

Just pointing out the potential "Vulcan" name recognition and popularity for people not versed in the SFU. Now that I have explored FC and know a small amount of what else there is, having the Paravians and Carnivon would also be an appeal. But for that I had to make that step of getting to know the SFU via FC vs jumping direct from TOS.

As to the Early Years ships mentioned here, are they the same hull deign as the ones from the General War? If not, that too is interesting. It may seem shallow but FC is a more visual game. The rules keep me playing it, but it is also nice to look at. As a counter snob wargamer, I love the easy to handle and beautiful 1" counters.

BTW, Enjoy your input on "SFU On Call". I also bought your Omega play test rules and enjoyed reading them, hope to play test but I have not even played with all the Alpha goodies yet.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 22, 2012 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far as the ships go, it depends on who you ask.

-----

In the case of the Federation, the Y-era hulls are, for the most part, the first to be built to the "saucer-and-nacelle" layout that (most) Star Fleet ships are renowned for. Take, for example, the Republic-class YCA; the first true ancestor of the Constitution-class CA, so far as SFU history tells it.

(The old YCLs are an exception; in many cases, they are literally the same ships as the Texas-class CLs in the modern era, only with less powerful engines.)

In the W-era, however, there was no unified Star Fleet; each major member planet has its own planetary navy, filled with ships that were refitted with the first tactical warp drives. So, the Terrans had a variety of hulls inherited from their "sublight" (non-tactical warp) days; but only the WCLs were able to remain in front-line service once the Y-era came along. (The old Terran destroyer had the same outline as the modern Fed Police Cutter; but the latter ship pretty much had to be re-built from the keel up, so doesn't have quite the same internal design legacy as the CL does.)

This was also the time of the Vulcan, Andorian, Alpha-Centuaran and Rigelian planetary fleets; each of which had their own particular look to them, but perhaps haven't been given the kind of class-by-class distinctions as the Terrans.

(The real-life reason for this is that most of the Terran hulls in SFB Module Y2 were based on figures from the Silent Death miniatures line; thanks to a deal which ADB signed a few years back with Iron Crown Enterprises.)

-----

Actually, ICE are also the reason why the five pre-ISC fleets look the way they do; all of those W-era hulls were based on other Silent Death minis, the outlines of which can be seen on the Y2 and Y3 countersheets and SSDs.

(The unified ISC ships in the Y-era look different from the Pacification-era hulls, too; unlike the three-prong designs used by the modern Concordium, the Y-hulls have two prongs only.)

-----

Outside of the Feds and ISC, things are a little different. The Romulans, of course, use the exact same ships, only with various upgrades added to make each generation fly a little bit differently; the Kzintis used ships that kind of look like the modern Kzinti tug; while the Lyrans had much boxier hulls that weren't laid out as catamarans.

Or, to put a long story short, things are a lot more diverse hull-wise in the W-era than in the Y-era; but it's no accident that the Y-era fleets are much easier to operate from a logistical perspective than their non-standardized W-era forebears.

-----

And thank you for the kind words; though I have Rick to thank for his artistry, in terms of making the OPRB a reality. (If you have any thoughts on the Omega stuff at some later point, you're welcome to post in one of the threads linked to in my signature; but I didn't want to derail this thread much further.)
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul B posted this in a new topic:
================
Any thought of adding early year ships to the game? I know that the Briefing#2 middle years book apparently sold poorly, however those ships are somewhat similar to what already exists.

So wondering if the Early Year ships are distinguished enough to be interesting to players.

Admittedly, traditionally ships which are less advanced tend to have niche appeal at least in other game systems. In Flames of War for example Late War sells much better than Early or Middle war units. In Battletech I imagine the newer units sell better than the older historical-based products which are produced. So one would think the same might hold true for FC as well.

Still, would be cool to see some early wars ships.

There might be enough interest in say the Fed-Romulan war to make such a supplement attractive.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Gary Carney posted this in the new topic, and redirected the conversation to this topic.
===================

a few sample EY Ship Cards were presented in Captain's Log #39 and the CL39 Supplemental File. (Not counting the "modern" Tholian Ship Cards which also work for that era.)

By and large, I might argue that one might need to divide the Early Years into the W- and Y-eras in order for either to be viable in an FC context. (The W-era represents the warp-reffited and warp-driven hulls that were first built or upgraded to make use of tactical warp and "warp-class" weapons; while the Y-era represented the first ships designed from the keel up to make use of tactical warp drive. For example, the Terran, Vulcan, Andorian, and other "National Guard" hulls would for the most part count as W-era ships; while the first wave of "saucer-and-nacelle" ships of the united Star Fleet were commissioned in the Y-era.)

In FC terms, the W-ships would likely be prevented from setting Baseline Speeds of 16 or 24, while the Y-hulls would be barred from baseline Speeds of 24. (This represents the respective speed caps of each generation of tactical warp drive over in the SFB Y-modules.)

But so far as where the Early Years lie along the Alpha Octant timeline, I should add that the first Fed-Romulan War was fought with "sublight" (non-tactical warp) ships on both sides. The Feds would fight both the Kzintis and Klingons in the Early Years, but the Romulans spent much of that era trying (and failing) to invade the Gorns - who in turn were alternating between battles on their Romulan and Paravian fronts.

(Actually, one could argue that the Klingons get the most to do in the Early Years, as they get to fight the Kzintis, Lyrans, Hydrans, and Tholians. Indeed, the battles on the Tholian front might be of particular interest, with a small force of more advanced Tholian ships trying to hold the line against larger numbers of Early Years Klingon hulls.)
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Briefing #2 was Middle Years ships. The reason I thought it was interesting (and advocated for it) was because it used the same basic ships as the main game, but they were "unrefitted". This means they didn't need counters (you just used what you already had), but still provided a different feel to the play, since the weaknesses that all of the refits provided were left exposed. So, it was pretty much similar ships and a similar game, but with more weaknesses within those ships.

Early Years would be quite different. With much less functionality, less power, and fewer options (fewer weapons and no overloads), the Early Years would provide very different conditions. Still the same game, much simpler play, but different feel. As Gary points out, there would end up being two series, the W-series and the Y-series. The Y-series are the "later" models with more options and speeds. It also will present more of a familiar look for the various empires. The W-series are the "earlier" models, go slower, and have a wide range of feel and are more unfamiliar.

As Gary points out, the base rules and some example cruisers were published in Captain's Log #39 and Captain's Log #39 Supplemental File. That is your best bet to give you the chance to test out the Early Years in Federation Commander to see if you like it. We had talked about making an Early Years ePack consolidating that presentation, but I don't think it ever got made.

Personally, I would love to see a series of Early Years FC products. However, given the lack of enthusiasm surrounding Briefing #1, and given players in general seem to want more options, power, and weapons, not less, I doubt it will be all that viable to produce. To be blunt, I would expect X1 and/or the nascent X2 to be added to FC before Early Years.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, a few comments.

FIRST, anything done takes time and there is only so much time. I have a list of things to do that will literally last until Christmas 2015 and doing anything major means not doing or delaying something already announced and scheduled. We have more than one product line, and by the time I spend some time on Captain's Log #50, four F&E products, Federation Admiral, Captain's Log #51, Fed Commander Fighters Attack, SFB Module X2, Captain's Log #52, and some other things I don't want to discuss yet, there isn't a lot of time. I can do anything; I cannot do everything. For everyone asking for this product for this product line, there are at least five people asking for some other product for some other product line. That said...

The cards aren't THAT hard to do, and Gary or Mike could write the EY rules. Doing some kind of product (paper, PDF, laminated) is not entirely impossible of a thing to slip into a crack in the schedule. The smaller the better. A playtest pack with 10-12 ships including the ones in CapLog #39 is easier to do that a Briefing or a full attack module.

A full attack module with laminated cards is probably not going to happen. I just don't see 500 people buying Early Years FC. I just really don't.

But some kind of project could produce some kind of PDF playtest pack.
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Paul B
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the subject of these possible expansions in general, wouldn't a Booster#0 style approach be the best of both worlds? Small product to test the waters of say LMC, Omega or Early years with 8 or so ships and a booklet of necessary rules and a bit of fluff.

It would I think require the minimum amount of work compared to the other options and also give FC players something to purchase (I'm not sure when the last major release was nor when the next major one coming up is). It would also be the least financially risky of the lot.

With any early years I would recommend that the ships chosen be the most far removed from what is presently in the game. Ships of the old CL ilk without saucers for the Feds for example. Maybe a single booster could have say 2 ships from each of four major powers, say Fed, Klingon, Kzinti and Gorn. The idea being that these ships would add a different flavour rather than be more of the same. Presumably they have more armour, less shields, less speed, etcetera. Maybe also have more PH-2 or something of that nature.

And if there's enough interest, go ahead with a larger product or follow-up with an additional booster adding some different races.

Counters aren't available but they can of course be placed into the rear jacket of the booster and cut out and used that way or simply use suitable proxies from existing counters.

The same booster approach could be done for LMC and Omega Octant races or some of the other races like the Pavarians and Carnavorians.


And heck if you needed (paid) help doing up some ship cards, I could probably do a booster's worth in a day assuming that both a template and the ship artwork was provided. Well, actually the cards are simple enough that I could probably do it without the template. I've done hundreds of personal record sheets already for various games and am currently creating a few for a game of my own design.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As with the Main Era itself, one might have to be more focused on which "sub-setting" one were to do for each era in the Early Years.

For example, it would make sense (both thematically and logistically) to keep the Early Years Gorns together with the early Romulans and Paravians. You could even latch onto one of the "Mapsheet P" alternate timelines in SFB Module C6, as an excuse to add the early ISC to the mix.

Meanwhile, you could probably mimic the "Klingon Border" setup by doing the Federation alongside the Klingons, Kzintis, and Orions (the Tholians don't need new Ship Cards), while the Lyrans, Hydrans, Carnivons, and WYNs could be kept in reserve as a "Distant Kingdoms" analogue.

If we are talking the Y-era, it would probably be best to start with the Fed-Klingon-Kzinti-Orion option, if there was room for some sort of product that offered 8 (or 16) Ship Cards in one go. That would keep the range of new rules and weapons to a minimum, while still allowing players to fight out the early Klingon-Tholian wars (at least in playtest format).

-----

As for the W-era, the real problem there is for both the Feds and the ISC. In both cases, there was no "unified" hull type in service for either power; all of the ships were built by, and (initially) for, a single member planet.

Aside from the Terran warp-refitted CL, and the warp-refitted Terran destroyer (that just happened to look the same as the "modern" police cutter from the outside), a number of other Terran ships were published for SFB in the various Y-modules, based on miniatures currently sold by Metal Express. Ships were also done in this manner for the five species which founded the Inter-Stellar Concordium (the Korlivilar, the Pronhoulites , the Q'naabians, the Rovillians, and the Veltressai). No minis as yet exist for the non-Terran ships in the pre-Star Fleet Federation.

Would it be necessary to start with but a single planetary fleet in each case (such as the Terrans for the UFP)? Or would there need to be entire modules/packs devoted to each multi-planet union?

Or to put it another way, would you have one "Federation" W-pack which only had the Terrans, Vulcans, Andorians, Alpha-Centaurans, and Rigelians? Or an "ISC" pack with the five pre-ISC species' fleets? And then have separate packs for the Klingons (and Kzintis etc) and the Romulans (and Gorns and Paravians)?

-----

At least the counters may not be too much of an issue, since the countersheets from the three SFB Y-modules are sold separately. (So long as you're willing to stick with 1/2" counters, at least.)
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think doing a Y-series set of Fed-Klingon-Kzinti-Lyran-Hydran-Carnivon would work out nicely as a first attempt. Do, say, CA/DD for each one and that is 12 ships right there. If we can do a little more, then let's throw in an Early Base Station and Space Boar. The rules are already written (though they probably should be revisited based on the work done for porting the GW Carnivon into FC. That would not be terribly hard. Also, all (or almost all) of the relevant cruisers have already been done (for the aforementioned CL). The Tholians are even there for "free', as the rules would simply list the available Tholian ships. (Basically the NDD, NFF and PC.)

I left out the WYN and Orion because they enter so late. With so many good candidates, we might as well leave them out entirely on a first pass. I ignore the Romulans/Gorn/Paravians, as they are isolated and don't interact with anyone else much. The only common touch-point is the Romulans, and doing sublight Romulans against Y-ships just isn't much fun.

I recommend Y-series for two major reasons. The first, as Gary points out, is the sheer number and diversity of ships. It is just out of hand, and would be difficult to do effectively in small batches. The second is that most of Y-series are similar to their later ships, so it gives a bridge of familiarity. Plus most can just use existing counters without issue. (The only exceptions are the Hydrans, who's ships are different shapes, and the Carnivon, who don't have counters.)
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 6:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think things would be quite different depending on how many ships we are talking about, and whether we are looking at "playtest" material (akin to the current Omega and LMC files) or "published" material (be it in print or PDF format).

-----

For the Y-era, if one is looking at 8 Ship Cards, I'd agree in doing two per empire - for which I might suggest:

Federation (2):
YCA
YDD

Klingon (2):
D4
F4

Kzinti (2):
YCS
YFF

Orion (2):
YCR
YLR

Total: 8.

But on the other hand, if we are talking about, say, 16 Ship Cards, I believe that it is better to offer a few more ships for a few less empires, so as to allow players to field proper squadrons for each empire in question. (I feel the same way about the Omega and LMC projects, for that matter.)

So, I might suggest something like the following:

Federation (5):
YDN
YCA
YCL
YDD
YFF

Klingon (3):
C4
D4
F4

Kzinti (4):
YDN
YCS
YCL
YFF

Orion (2):
YCR
YLR

Generic (1):
YBS

Monster (1):
Space Boar

Total: 16.

(And yes, the Orions are "late" to the era. But then, one could say the same about the post-Smarba Romulan ships in Briefing #2.)

-----

For the W-era, if one wanted to do a playtest pack of 8 ships, perhaps something like this?

Terran (2):
WCA
WDD

Andorian (2):
YNC
YND

Klingon (2):
D3
F3

Kzinti (2):
WCA
WFF

Total: 8.

Alternatively, if a set of 16 Ship Cards was on the table:

Terran (5):
WDN
WCA
WCL
WDD
WFF

Andorian (3):
YNC
YND
WNF

Klingon (3):
C3
D3
F3

Kzinti (5):
WDN
WCA
WCL
WDD
WFF

Total: 16.

The Terrans are about as close to a "lead" planetary force one could go with, due to Earth's dominant role across the Federation. While the Andorians offer something interesting to the mix (their hemispheric drone racks), and may be less imbalancing than throwing in the Vulcans (with those phasers-1 and special sensors). By the way, despite the "Y" in the cruiser and destroyer codes, both Andorian ships are still "W-era" hulls.

-----

Of course, the above is but one set of suggestions to consider; parsec-ages will vary on that score.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Putting the warp Romulans in Briefing #2 had nothing to do with "late" vs "early". It was all about making sure that one of the "big three" were not boring and ignored. Plus, those ships were actually seen on-screen, so it was perfectly reasonable to include them.

The Orions in Early Years are bit players who add nothing to the mix. They don't even have option mounts. They are just un-optimized Federation ships. (Yeah, they have kinda-stealth, but that doesn't do much or justify including them.) Rather than including the Orions, it would be much better to add a major player: the Lyrans. They have new weapons and new fighting styles and add a lot to the game and experience.

The order I see for adding Y-era empires is:
    Federation (duh)
    Klingon (duh)
    Kzinti (important Fed enemy)
    Lyran (remaining major empire; goes with Kzinti)
    Carnivon (EY-specific major empire; completes Kzinti/Lyran)
    Hydrans (finish "western" empires)
    Orion (totally cosmetic)
    Gorn, Romulan, Paravian (no point to add them one at a time; either all at once or not at all)
    ISC (isolated and are effectively stand-alone)

So, figure out how many you empires you want to include, then march down the list. (In fact, I could argue for listing the Federation fifth, but I think it is too important to include them from the start.)

Quite frankly, I am not interested in the W-series until after we get something done with the Y-series. The only semi-recognizable ship in the W-series is the D3 (and F3). I think it is necessary to lead with the Republic.
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