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Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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 Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 2:23 am Post subject: |
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| The Vulture in the latest Communique is immediately a best buy compared to most other Rom ships. It's only 170 pts and it has 2 R and 2 F along with great power and shielding. The only real weakness is maneuverability. It gives you way more bang for the buck than the Firehawk at 179 or the King Eagle at 140. |
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1386
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 5:50 am Post subject: |
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A big volley that gets past the armour and shields on a Vulture will quickly leave it with nothing but engines. This turkey has no stuffing.
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"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1897
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: | | The Vulture in the latest Communique is immediately a best buy compared to most other Rom ships. It's only 170 pts and it has 2 R and 2 F along with great power and shielding. The only real weakness is maneuverability. It gives you way more bang for the buck than the Firehawk at 179 or the King Eagle at 140. |
Certainly 2 plasma R has to command some amount of respect.
But the Vulture is a slug that can't even turn every impulse except at speed 0. Points wise in a duel it is taking on Command Cruisers (or similar), which pretty much always have a manouver edge, even the Fed and Gorn CCs have better turn modes!!. Its firepower is all forwards, even its Plas R is only FA rather than FP. I don't see the vulture beating many equal points ship in a duel. It probably does better in a squadron, but then squadron dynamics change the outlook for a lot of other ships as well.
Vulture vs king eagle for 30 points you only get 2 Ph1s and an R, not a huge amount of bang per buck. Power wise is about what you'd expect, they are about the same given the move/cloak costs etc. But at 30 points difference you are really comparing 2 quite different category of ships and expect quite a bit extra.
As for the Firehawk, I'd take a firehawk thanks, it has extra Ph1s and Ph3s, with much better arc coverage on the Ph1s. It may only have plasma S vs Rs, but they are FP rather than FA, which together with a vastly better turn mode makes it much more useful. The vulture does have better shields/armor but the Firehawk has more system boxes and twice the hull.
Of course as we have discussed before, I'm biased towards turn mode/weapon arcs whilst you are generally biased to raw firepower. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to point out that the Vulture has as much stuffing as a FH. The FH has 6 extra hull and 2 extra system boxes. The Vul has 8 armor which nicely matches the stuffing. With the extra power and batteries of a Vul, an equal size volley will hurt a FH a lot worse.
The FH has 1 PH-1 and 2 PH-3 extra. Not much compensation compared to upgrading 2 PL-S to PL-R. And it's turn mode in any duel is likely to be only 1 better at the speeds that these ships will likely to be at when fighting other plasma ships. And to actually use the better firing arcs of the FH, you're going to be exposing significantly weaker shields. |
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terryoc
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1386
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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Points-wise, the Vulture's an oddball. It's bigger than a CC but smaller than a BCH. It's actually an old sublight dreadnought upgraded to tactical warp. The King Eagle is the same, the KE is a command cruiser!! So the SFU, where you can usually only have one DN, a Romulan commander is going to be flying his flag from a Vulture only when there is literally nothing better available.
I think the combo Vulture, 2xKing Eagle is illegal in the tournament otherwise I might be tempted to give it a try. Four Type-R's would be very intimidating! Or VUL, 2xWE, SN. 
_________________
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:21 pm Post subject: |
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| I think Vul, 2 KE would be legal in a tournament. The official tournament squadrons did have one with 2 KE, BH, SN. It was a pretty lousy squadron though... |
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1386
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:28 pm Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: | | I'd like to point out that the Vulture has as much stuffing as a FH. The FH has 6 extra hull and 2 extra system boxes. The Vul has 8 armor which nicely matches the stuffing. With the extra power and batteries of a Vul, an equal size volley will hurt a FH a lot worse. |
OK, point on the armour, but I'm still not a fan of the Vulture's durability. It's got a lot of shuttles but shuttles absorb damage poorly IMO, it'd be better if it had labs instead. The extra power and batteries are necessary for the Vulture to move and load the R-torpedoes. I don't think it's safe to assume the Vulture will have the discretionary power available unless it's moving relatively slowly.
| mojo jojo wrote: | | The FH has 1 PH-1 and 2 PH-3 extra. Not much compensation compared to upgrading 2 PL-S to PL-R. And it's turn mode in any duel is likely to be only 1 better at the speeds that these ships will likely to be at when fighting other plasma ships. |
One better can make a big difference IMX. FC is all about maneuver, much more so than SFB. With a turn mode of E, everything is moving after you do. The Federation is a historical enemy and must be taken into account.
| mojo jojo wrote: | | And to actually use the better firing arcs of the FH, you're going to be exposing significantly weaker shields. |
Sure, but at least it can fight from behind more shields than the #1. If the Vulture loses its #1, it's in trouble. The FH can lose a forward shield and fight from behind one of the others. It also has the maneuverability to do that.
_________________
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1897
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| Posted: Sun Sep 12, 2010 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Between me starting and finishing typing it looks like Terry has covered a fair bit of what I was going to say.
Firehawk vs Vulture
-Extra Ph1.
-Can fire 5 Ph1 to L or R, compared to 2
-Downgrades R to S, but upgrades FA to FP.
-Turns faster.
-Better turnmode means more likely to have move intiaitive (Fed NCC and Gorn CC are both likely duel opponents from a BPV perpsective and both have turn mode D).
-Can effectvely engage from more shields, spreading damage around.
-less power, but less need for power (move cost, cloak, S vs R, EM, HET etc)
[edit] and I'd also fully agree with terry on FC, its all about manouver, hence my bias to turn mode and wide arcs. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:56 am Post subject: |
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| I'd like to point out that maneuverability only really matters at relatively close range. And I think it'd be rather problematical for the FH to try and get to relatively close range vs 2 PL-R... |
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1897
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:18 am Post subject: |
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| mojo jojo wrote: | | I'd like to point out that maneuverability only really matters at relatively close range. And I think it'd be rather problematical for the FH to try and get to relatively close range vs 2 PL-R... |
I wouldn't entirely agree with that - the FH can be facing an escape route and launch 2 * Pl-S at the vulture from close range whereas the Vulture more or less has to face the FH to launch and therefore has more issues avoiding the response. However, its not really a relavant discussion - in a discussion of value for points you are looking at how each ship performs against any other opponent, not just against each other. The FH outmanouvers and out turns several likely opponents, and has wider arcs to make up against those it can't. The Vulture is outmanouvered by anthing I can think of in its points range, and doesn't have the arcs to compensate - no point having 2 Pl-R if you can't bring them to bear. |
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:13 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | I wouldn't entirely agree with that - the FH can be facing an escape route and launch 2 * Pl-S at the vulture from close range whereas the Vulture more or less has to face the FH to launch and therefore has more issues avoiding the response. However, its not really a relavant discussion - in a discussion of value for points you are looking at how each ship performs against any other opponent, not just against each other. The FH outmanouvers and out turns several likely opponents, and has wider arcs to make up against those it can't. The Vulture is outmanouvered by anthing I can think of in its points range, and doesn't have the arcs to compensate - no point having 2 Pl-R if you can't bring them to bear. |
Again, the devil is in the details. I would think it would be extremely difficult vs a competent opponent to get close enough for maneuverability to matter vs 2 PL-R, regardless of whether the opponent is a Gorn CC, Fed NCC, or FH. Against a disrupter race, the Rom is likely to lose regardless of which ship it is unless he gets lucky with bolted torps in which case the Vul again has the advantage.
Also as you pointed out, the Vul works better in a fleet engagement where other ships can compensate for its weaknesses. And any relevant discussion of point values must included the impact of being part of a group as well as being alone. Otherwise escort ships wouldn't be priced right either. |
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terryoc
Captain
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1386
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:34 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I would think it would be extremely difficult vs a competent opponent to get close enough for maneuverability to matter vs 2 PL-R |
Disagree. If you launch at long-medium range, I can turn away, run them down a fair bit, take the remainder on an unimportant shield and then come back in. If I get to close range without a launch from you, you won't be able to launch barring an HET.
_________________
"Captain" Terry O'Carroll, fourteen papers published including six best of issue
"Man, Terry, you are like a loophole seeking missle!" - Mike West
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mojo jojo
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 23 Jun 2009
Posts: 340
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| Posted: Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| terryoc wrote: | | Quote: | | I would think it would be extremely difficult vs a competent opponent to get close enough for maneuverability to matter vs 2 PL-R |
Disagree. If you launch at long-medium range, I can turn away, run them down a fair bit, take the remainder on an unimportant shield and then come back in. If I get to close range without a launch from you, you won't be able to launch barring an HET. |
That's the weakness of plasma in general. You can do the same thing vs a FH. However, the Vul can last a little bit longer against such tactics since a PL-R launch is far scarier than a PL-S launch and the Vul has better shielding. Or it can gamble and bolt everything at 10 hexes and end the battle quickly. The bolt gambit is also better done with 2 PL-R rather than 2 PL-S. |
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HappyDaze
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 21 Apr 2010
Posts: 79
Location: Orlando, FL
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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| mjwest wrote: | 2) Don't expect any to change. There have been a couple mistakes (e.g. LDR CA) and a couple likely mistakes (e.g. Tholian DD). But, for the most part, the point values are what they are.
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I love using the Tholian DD in groups of three. I'd not heard that it was a likely mistake. I hope the cost doesn't increase, since I love my CC, NCL, DD, DD force for 450. |
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DirkSJ
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 08 Jun 2010
Posts: 239
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| Posted: Thu Sep 16, 2010 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| HappyDaze wrote: | | mjwest wrote: | 2) Don't expect any to change. There have been a couple mistakes (e.g. LDR CA) and a couple likely mistakes (e.g. Tholian DD). But, for the most part, the point values are what they are.
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I love using the Tholian DD in groups of three. I'd not heard that it was a likely mistake. I hope the cost doesn't increase, since I love my CC, NCL, DD, DD force for 450. |
It's been posted previously that changing a BPV post-release requires the acts of at least 4 separate gods representing 4 separate and conflicting pantheons. So you are probably good. |
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