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Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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 Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:59 pm Post subject: |
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| Scoutdad wrote: | | If I were playing against you, I'd have no problem allowing you to repair the drone, relaunch the fighter, and firethe remaining drones. |
Thats what I was allowing the other night (or agreed to if the carrier ever got chance to land the cripples). But looking at stingers I note that they lose the fusion charges on cripple, and therefore wonder whether drone fighters woud follow a similar principle and have to reload. |
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mjwest
Commodore
Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 4095
Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:10 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | Sorry - my question was about the drones still on the fighter itself (not ones in flight). It cannot launch them, but if it is repaired are the drones still there for it to launch without waiting for reloads. Or does getting crippled mean any unlaunched drones are lost/destroyed as well? |
Sorry, wasn't able to check back on this thread until now.
With the rules as currently written, you keep the drones. That said, your (later) comment about fusion charges being lost would make me check back with SFB to see what happens there. (I don't know, and can't check until later.) It would not surprise me if the rules are eventually changed to lose the drones when crippled.
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dharras
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 47
Location: Bristol, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:19 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | | Scoutdad wrote: | | If I were playing against you, I'd have no problem allowing you to repair the drone, relaunch the fighter, and firethe remaining drones. |
Thats what I was allowing the other night (or agreed to if the carrier ever got chance to land the cripples). But looking at stingers I note that they lose the fusion charges on cripple, and therefore wonder whether drone fighters woud follow a similar principle and have to reload. |
Presumably the photon and disruptor armed fighters would likewise lose their charges upon crippling (not mentioned in the rules either), otherwise the Hydrans will be rightly irritated.
It'd therefore make sense if the drone using ones ditched their ordnance when crippled, otherwise everyone would just take drone fighters when available. |
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terryoc
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Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 1384
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:21 pm Post subject: |
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In SFB, any weapons on a crippled shuttle/fighter (including drones) are dropped. So I think you'd have to reload the fighter.
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dharras
Lieutenant JG
Joined: 31 Jul 2009
Posts: 47
Location: Bristol, UK
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:23 pm Post subject: |
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| mjwest wrote: | | That said, your (later) comment about fusion charges being lost would make me check back with SFB to see what happens there. (I don't know, and can't check until later.) It would not surprise me if the rules are eventually changed to lose the drones when crippled. |
Mike, J1.332 - All external weapons (drones, pl-Ds, etc) must be dropped, all phasers are reduced to ph-3s, all armed non-phaser energy weapons are discharged. |
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Hod K'el
Lieutenant Commander
Joined: 21 Aug 2008
Posts: 301
Location: Lafayette LA
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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By game rules, yes, you do need to drop them.
Reality is the problem. The Captain of the carrier would not want to risk a crippled fighter landing in a nice, neat bay on a nice, neat carrier with possibly shorted out live ordnance when a chain reaction could result in a line note in headquarters about how not to loose a carrier.
The next thing to look at is the cargo space for the extra reloads you will require. (Note that you can store two extra missiles under each couch and each bed.) You do not need the space aboard the carrier if you have a tender, but you will have to defend the tender.
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storeylf
Fleet Captain
Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1887
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| storeylf wrote: | Before it gets lost in a tangent, can anyone answer my question earlier, do crippled fighters lose their drones, or will they have to reload them?
| Kang wrote: |
There are therefore eighteen control channels available: six from the CA and two from each of the six fighters. The Feds can therefore control eighteen drones. Problem solved, nice and simple.
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Sorry, What problem? |
I re-read that post, You mean the 'problem' of who controls what, I think.
In terms of fighters I don't think it makes much better, in fact it may make things a lot worse.
I expect those who are masochistic enough to use real drone rules with fighter drones are not going to be bothered about tracking control.
Direct fire drones are such that the drones are not on the map, and they always impact within 2 impulses. The fighter can control all the drones it can launch, so doesn't have any issues like ships might have - if the fighter can launch, it can also control it and anything still in flight.
Where I would be worried is that some squadrons (and I'm looking at Kzinti mostly) would just end up using fighters as free drone control. Just hang around and sling out the max number of drones from ships without having to worry to much about actually running out of drone control points. At the moment most 4 rack ships can launch 4 + 2 then await free channles, with fighters hanging around they could launnch 4 + 4 + 4 + 4. Can't really work out how bad that is or is not, but it feels like a drastic shift in play balance.
I'd also be a little concerned about the things Scoutdad noted - it feels a little cheesy that whenever ships get blown up you get to choose which drones to drop, rather than ones launched by that ship. Same with a ship going EM or cloaking - launch mass drones at close range then promptly go EM/cloak whilst another ship/fighters take control?
What about stuff that doesn't usually have drones - would they still be able to control 6 drones? Orions, could I switch 1 ship to all energy weapons and another to mass drone racks whilst using 12 drone control still?
It also seems to affect the shooting down of drones, At the moment against a drone heavy fleet, I'll often target drones from 1 ship so that only that 1 ship is getting control freed up whilst just outrunning the other drones. With generic control every time you shoot a drone you open a control channel for what ever is in the best position.
On the one hand it does make the book keeping simpler, on the other hand it seems to result in significant changes to the way the game plays, and hence potentially game balance.
Last edited by storeylf on Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:35 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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Kang
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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Nice analysis, Lee. You are quite right in that I was looking for simplicity - the corollary of those unrealistic fighter tactics had not occurred to me. Well done 
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mjwest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:48 pm Post subject: |
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| dharras wrote: | | mjwest wrote: | | That said, your (later) comment about fusion charges being lost would make me check back with SFB to see what happens there. (I don't know, and can't check until later.) It would not surprise me if the rules are eventually changed to lose the drones when crippled. |
Mike, J1.332 - All external weapons (drones, pl-Ds, etc) must be dropped, all phasers are reduced to ph-3s, all armed non-phaser energy weapons are discharged. |
There you go. Yes, all non-phaser weapons on a fighter are dropped when the fighter is crippled, including drones/Pl-Ds. This note will eventually be included when the fighter rules are updated.
Also note that all phasers are reduced to a single Ph-3. So a crippled F-18 (with two Ph-3s) and a crippled Stinger (with a Ph-G) each only have a single Ph-3 to use while crippled.
When a fighter is repaired to be not crippled, then the phasers are all instantly restored. The non-phaser weapons must be reloaded.
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mjwest
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| Posted: Mon Jan 03, 2011 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Hod K'el wrote: | | The next thing to look at is the cargo space for the extra reloads you will require. (Note that you can store two extra missiles under each couch and each bed.) You do not need the space aboard the carrier if you have a tender, but you will have to defend the tender. |
Drone reloads (whether for fighters or drone racks on ships) are abstracted out in Federation Commander. Your ship has infinite reloads and your fighters have infinite reloads. I seriously doubt this will change in the formal BoM rules. It just gets too fiddly.
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Nerroth
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:41 am Post subject: |
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| mjwest wrote: | No, plasma fighters have not been yet addressed. However, Pl-D fighters should be pretty trivial to handle. Just use the drone rules with these exceptions:
- For "direct-fire" Pl-D, the damage done is 10.
- For "seeking" Pl-D, just launch a Pl-D instead of a drone.
- Remember that Pl-D are self-guiding, so control issues become moot.
For the Gorn G-18, just take an F-18 and replace the drones with Pl-D. Actually, that matches the Romulan FSF, so use it for both Romulans and Gorns. |
Would something similar apply to the ISC?
Oh, one thing I was trying to think about, if only as a more off-in-the-distance thing; Omega carriers and fighters.
When it comes to the carriers, the Męsrons, Probr and FRA each have a CVS, the Trobrin have a CSV (which also has special sensors; not a problem if it's a BoM ship anyway) while an Iridani Galleon could be assumed to mount two carrier modules to act as an equivalent.
Omega carriers tend to be given standard complements of mostly superiority craft, with a handful of assault fighters included to balance things up. For example, the FRA CVS is usually listed as having either 12 Doberman (superiority) fighters, or 8 of them and 4 Rottweiler (attack) craft.
I'm not sure what the FC equivalent should be; whether they should go with purely superiority models, or all assaults, or perhaps keep a 2:1 ratio or something...
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FC Omega Discussion (v3)
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mjwest
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:59 am Post subject: |
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Gary,
There are no answers to your Omega questions. It is still an open question as to how fighters will be addressed in BoM. We just don't know. That is why the playtest rules allow for both assault and superiority use. You are just going to have to wait for the fighter BoM material to be formally published before we will know for sure.
As for the ISC, their Pl-D fighter would have two more damage points. So, take a Z-Y, remove all four drones and add in two Pl-D. There you are.
Just for completeness, for Pl-F fighters:
Romulan G-III: No easy conversion. So, 12 damage points, 1 Pl-F FA, 1 Ph-3 FA
Gorn G-10: Take A-10 and replace the photon with a Pl-F.
ISC: Same as superiority fighter, but with 1 Pl-F instead of 2 Pl-D.
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Nerroth
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 5:15 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for the ISC thing.
Omega fighters can wait; though the five playtest empires do have options in both superiority and assault craft types, if the time comes.
(As an aside, if gunboats ever get any kind of development, any would-be port of Omega PFs might have a few twists here and there, too.)
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FC Omega Discussion (v3)
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mjwest
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Location: Dallas, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Nerroth wrote: | | (As an aside, if gunboats ever get any kind of development, any would-be port of Omega PFs might have a few twists here and there, too.) |
(Dude, porting the base gunboats into Federation Commander is gonna have a few twists here and there.)
Now, back to fighters ...
Again, given the rules we have now for drone fighters, Pl-D fighters are rather straight forward (as I show above). The biggest thing is for more play testing to be done on them. Do they work? Are they fun? Do they "break" the game? Are they too much clutter?
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storeylf
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| Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:27 pm Post subject: |
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| mjwest wrote: | | Again, given the rules we have now for drone fighters, Pl-D fighters are rather straight forward (as I show above). The biggest thing is for more play testing to be done on them. Do they work? Are they fun? Do they "break" the game? Are they too much clutter? |
I can't see them being that bad, I'd assume that they would do 10 if they were fired at range 4 or less and 8 if at range 5-8. Harder to defensive fire but do less damage. The fighters are still vulnerable to being nobbled before launching. Thats is speculation though, I expect we'll play a few more fighter games over the next few months, and they may make an appearance in our campaign we are about to start (we are going to allow all BoM rules).
Was talking to my opponent today (just got back from playing a 1000pt starbase assault). After pondering for a few days he is less concerned about the record keeping involved in direct fire drones than he was on first play.
I' more intrigued by the Plasma F version someone noted - direct fire Fs woud be scary. |
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