junior is correct.
Some clarifications:
- As junior points out, nothing else in the Evasive Maneuvers rules change. So you still have the two impulse delay before you can stop EM.
- The only time you may "declare" Evasive Maneuvers during Energy Allocation is when continuing them. If continuing, there is no break in the "action", so you are fully protected (and restricted) on Impulse #1.
- You pay the energy at declaration.
- Both ships may fire without restriction in the direct fire phase between declaration and EM taking effect.
Evasive Maneuvers proposal
Moderators: mjwest, Albiegamer
Thank you Mike, we do all agree then.mjwest wrote:junior is correct.
Some clarifications:
- As junior points out, nothing else in the Evasive Maneuvers rules change. So you still have the two impulse delay before you can stop EM.
- The only time you may "declare" Evasive Maneuvers during Energy Allocation is when continuing them. If continuing, there is no break in the "action", so you are fully protected (and restricted) on Impulse #1.
- You pay the energy at declaration.
- Both ships may fire without restriction in the direct fire phase between declaration and EM taking effect.
But this does mean that for Evasive Maneuvers to be in effect for Impulses #2-8 (any two [or more] Impulse block) costs a ship six times their movement cost. However, if you wish to cover Impulses #8 and Impulse #1 the next turn, you must spend twelve times the ship's movement cost to bridge an arbitrary span of "non-time" (when we do a clean up and accounting step.)
I think junior was correct on the Legacy board... Start of Impulse declaration means being able to be covered in any Impulse equally. Instead we now have the window of a Federation* "Hehehe, caught him without enough power to Evasive Maneuver at the end of turn so I can blast him in Impulse#8 and Impulse #1 next turn and he can't do anything about it." So, where did the "Action and Reaction" feel go now?
OGRE AI
* meaning any direct fire, minimum/no seeking weapons empire
Was it ever mentioned why the continuation of EM during energy allocation counts as "starting" EM for the purposes of cancelling EM later?
Many's the time I have been witness to ships being evasive for over 8 impulses and the optimum time for dropping EM occurs on impulse 1 or 2.
Anyone know the reason why one cannot cancel EM during the first two impulses of a turn after energy allocation? (Assuming of course that you have already been evasive for the minimum 2 impulses prior to that point.)
Many's the time I have been witness to ships being evasive for over 8 impulses and the optimum time for dropping EM occurs on impulse 1 or 2.
Anyone know the reason why one cannot cancel EM during the first two impulses of a turn after energy allocation? (Assuming of course that you have already been evasive for the minimum 2 impulses prior to that point.)
I'm pretty sure you can...Vladimyr wrote:Anyone know the reason why one cannot cancel EM during the first two impulses of a turn after energy allocation? (Assuming of course that you have already been evasive for the minimum 2 impulses prior to that point.)
When you pay for EM at the start of the turn, you're continuing your already existing EM. So if you started EM on Impulse 2 of the previous turn and carried it over into the current turn, then you should be able to end it on Impulse 2 of the current turn. I'm pretty confident that there's no requirement to keep it going at least up through Impulse 3.
To quote Briefing #1:
(2D4d) Spending power to continue Evasive Maneuvers over the turn break counts as an "Announcement" for the purposes of Termination. Consequently, if Evasive Maneuvers are continued over a turn break, they may not be terminated until Impulse #3.
According to how I read this, you can't.
(2D4d) Spending power to continue Evasive Maneuvers over the turn break counts as an "Announcement" for the purposes of Termination. Consequently, if Evasive Maneuvers are continued over a turn break, they may not be terminated until Impulse #3.
According to how I read this, you can't.
Vladimir is correct, even if continuing EM over the start of a turn, it is counted as "starting" again, and therefore cannot be canceled in Impulse 1 or 2.
Quite frankly, I don't have a great explanation for that ruling. (I had originally ruled along the lines of junior's comment, but that was overruled.) It is just the way it works.
Quite frankly, I don't have a great explanation for that ruling. (I had originally ruled along the lines of junior's comment, but that was overruled.) It is just the way it works.
Federation Commander Answer Guy
It appears (to me) to have been a way to stop ships being EM at the start of turn, drop out for 1 impulse to shoot then go straight back into EM again. You can only announce EM 1/turn, so making the turn start an 'announcement' prevents that.mjwest wrote:Vladimir is correct, even if continuing EM over the start of a turn, it is counted as "starting" again, and therefore cannot be canceled in Impulse 1 or 2.
Quite frankly, I don't have a great explanation for that ruling. (I had originally ruled along the lines of junior's comment, but that was overruled.) It is just the way it works.
Oh, I agree with that (and with that purpose). I just wish that it was exempt from triggering the two impulse delay.storeylf wrote:It appears (to me) to have been a way to stop ships being EM at the start of turn, drop out for 1 impulse to shoot then go straight back into EM again. You can only announce EM 1/turn, so making the turn start an 'announcement' prevents that.mjwest wrote:Vladimir is correct, even if continuing EM over the start of a turn, it is counted as "starting" again, and therefore cannot be canceled in Impulse 1 or 2.
Quite frankly, I don't have a great explanation for that ruling. (I had originally ruled along the lines of junior's comment, but that was overruled.) It is just the way it works.
Federation Commander Answer Guy
I forgot about that rulingmjwest wrote:Oh, I agree with that (and with that purpose). I just wish that it was exempt from triggering the two impulse delay.storeylf wrote:It appears (to me) to have been a way to stop ships being EM at the start of turn, drop out for 1 impulse to shoot then go straight back into EM again. You can only announce EM 1/turn, so making the turn start an 'announcement' prevents that.mjwest wrote:Vladimir is correct, even if continuing EM over the start of a turn, it is counted as "starting" again, and therefore cannot be canceled in Impulse 1 or 2.
Quite frankly, I don't have a great explanation for that ruling. (I had originally ruled along the lines of junior's comment, but that was overruled.) It is just the way it works.
So now that means you CANNOT be under Evasive Maneuvers on Turn X Impulse#8 and Turn Y Impulse #1 only... You wouldn't be able to reply to Offensive Fire until Impulse # 3.
This is worse than what I postulated earlier.
Mjwest, or even SVC, could we hear your thoughts or comments on Junior's suggestion to just make Evasive Manveuvering declarations be made during the "Start of Impulse" phase? If there are reservations against that idea, I'm interested in hearing them.
Again, thank you Mjwest for moderating this sometimes rowdy bunch, and SVC for bringing us FC and helping me come back to the SFU
OGRE AI
Mjwest,
If your reply was directed towards me, Yes I understand that continuing EM into another turn is not a change. Sorry if my prior post seemed like I was shocked.
Mike,
Considering your example, I think there is a mistake. According to the rule update in Communique #32:
(2D4a) Evasive maneuvering takes effect at the
end of the subsequent Direct Fire Phase, in effect giving
the enemy “one last shot� without a penalty. - Underline is my emphasis
First, this should be reworded as FC has no "Direct Fire Phase" we have an Offensive Fire Phase.
Second, I think you might have misread that Mike, effecting your example.
Here is my example (to illustrate my understanding of the current state of EM)
Turn X, Impulse #1 - Player A declares and pays for Evasivew Maneuvers at the end of the Defensive Fire Phase. Player A can fire during the Offensive Fire Phase and be fired upon normally. At the end of Offensive Fire Phase (the subsequent Direct Fire phase mentioned in 2D4a) Evasive Maneuvers take effect. Player A CAN NOT use Transporters or Tractors during the Other Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers. Player A CAN NOT launch seeking weapons during the Launch Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers.
Turn X, Impulse #2 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.
Turn X, Impulse #3 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.
Turn X, Impulse #4 - Player A can (rule 2D4d) during the Speed Change Phase terminate Evasive Maneuvers as this is the FIRST Speed Change Phase after two complete Impulses have passed. Player A choses to terminate Evasive Maneuvers. All Evasive Maneuver effect are terminated immeadiately. Player A maneuvers with a normal turn mode throughout the following 4 Sub-Pulses. Player A has no effects of Evasive Maneuvers during Defensive Fire, Offensive Fire, Other or Launch Phases.
Player A can no longer use Evasive Maneuvers for the rest of Turn X
The above actions cost Player A six times his ship's Move Cost.
Now if Player A had started that a little later:
Turn X, Impulse #8 - Player A declares and pays for Evasivew Maneuvers at the end of the Defensive Fire Phase. Player A can fire during the Offensive Fire Phase and be fired upon normally. At the end of Offensive Fire Phase (the subsequent Direct Fire phase mentioned in 2D4a) Evasive Maneuvers take effect. Player A CAN NOT use Transporters or Tractors during the Other Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers. Player A CAN NOT launch seeking weapons during the Launch Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers.
Turn X, End of Turn Phase - per (2D4d) Termination: Evasive Manuevers terminate for Player A
Turn Y, Energy Allocation Phase - per (2D4d) Termination: Evasive Maneuvers do not continue into the next turn (unless power is spent in Energy Allocation Phase of that turn, which counts as the one time you can adopt Evasive Maneuvers for that turn). Player A decides to "continue" Evasive Maneuvers and pays the power for it. The two impulse clock resets to zero and starts.
Turn Y, Impulse #1 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.
Turn Y, Impulse #2 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.
Turn Y, Impulse #3 - Player A can (rule 2D4d) during the Speed Change Phase terminate Evasive Maneuvers as this is the FIRST Speed Change Phase after two complete Impulses have passed. Player A choses to terminate Evasive Maneuvers. All Evasive Maneuver effect are terminated immeadiately. Player A maneuvers with a normal turnmode throughout the following 4 Sub-Pulses. Player A has no effects of Evasive Maneuvers during Defensive Fire, Offensive Fire, Other or Luanch Phases.
Player A can no longer use Evasive Maneuvers for the rest of Turn Y
The above actions means that Player A paid six times his ship's Move Cost twice (Turn X, Impulse #8 and Turn Y Energy Allocation Phase) for the following effect:
No Evasive Maneuvering effects in Turn X, Impulse #8 except the restrictions on the Other and Launch Phases.
Evasive Maneuvering effects cover all of Turn Y, Impulses #1 & 2
This is the only method of using the effects of Evasive Maneuvering that would effect Offensive Fire during Impulse #1 of any turn.
If any of that is in error, please correct me and my understanding of Evasive Maneuvering as it currently stands. I am sorry to be this long winded, but I wished to be crystal clear and avoid any ambiguity in meaning by shortening my words.
Thanks,
OGRE AI
If your reply was directed towards me, Yes I understand that continuing EM into another turn is not a change. Sorry if my prior post seemed like I was shocked.
Mike,
Considering your example, I think there is a mistake. According to the rule update in Communique #32:
(2D4a) Evasive maneuvering takes effect at the
end of the subsequent Direct Fire Phase, in effect giving
the enemy “one last shot� without a penalty. - Underline is my emphasis
First, this should be reworded as FC has no "Direct Fire Phase" we have an Offensive Fire Phase.
Second, I think you might have misread that Mike, effecting your example.
Here is my example (to illustrate my understanding of the current state of EM)
Turn X, Impulse #1 - Player A declares and pays for Evasivew Maneuvers at the end of the Defensive Fire Phase. Player A can fire during the Offensive Fire Phase and be fired upon normally. At the end of Offensive Fire Phase (the subsequent Direct Fire phase mentioned in 2D4a) Evasive Maneuvers take effect. Player A CAN NOT use Transporters or Tractors during the Other Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers. Player A CAN NOT launch seeking weapons during the Launch Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers.
Turn X, Impulse #2 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.
Turn X, Impulse #3 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.
Turn X, Impulse #4 - Player A can (rule 2D4d) during the Speed Change Phase terminate Evasive Maneuvers as this is the FIRST Speed Change Phase after two complete Impulses have passed. Player A choses to terminate Evasive Maneuvers. All Evasive Maneuver effect are terminated immeadiately. Player A maneuvers with a normal turn mode throughout the following 4 Sub-Pulses. Player A has no effects of Evasive Maneuvers during Defensive Fire, Offensive Fire, Other or Launch Phases.
Player A can no longer use Evasive Maneuvers for the rest of Turn X
The above actions cost Player A six times his ship's Move Cost.
Now if Player A had started that a little later:
Turn X, Impulse #8 - Player A declares and pays for Evasivew Maneuvers at the end of the Defensive Fire Phase. Player A can fire during the Offensive Fire Phase and be fired upon normally. At the end of Offensive Fire Phase (the subsequent Direct Fire phase mentioned in 2D4a) Evasive Maneuvers take effect. Player A CAN NOT use Transporters or Tractors during the Other Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers. Player A CAN NOT launch seeking weapons during the Launch Phase as he is now under Evasive maneuvers.
Turn X, End of Turn Phase - per (2D4d) Termination: Evasive Manuevers terminate for Player A
Turn Y, Energy Allocation Phase - per (2D4d) Termination: Evasive Maneuvers do not continue into the next turn (unless power is spent in Energy Allocation Phase of that turn, which counts as the one time you can adopt Evasive Maneuvers for that turn). Player A decides to "continue" Evasive Maneuvers and pays the power for it. The two impulse clock resets to zero and starts.
Turn Y, Impulse #1 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.
Turn Y, Impulse #2 - Player A is under the effects of Evasive Maneuvers for the entire Impulse.
Turn Y, Impulse #3 - Player A can (rule 2D4d) during the Speed Change Phase terminate Evasive Maneuvers as this is the FIRST Speed Change Phase after two complete Impulses have passed. Player A choses to terminate Evasive Maneuvers. All Evasive Maneuver effect are terminated immeadiately. Player A maneuvers with a normal turnmode throughout the following 4 Sub-Pulses. Player A has no effects of Evasive Maneuvers during Defensive Fire, Offensive Fire, Other or Luanch Phases.
Player A can no longer use Evasive Maneuvers for the rest of Turn Y
The above actions means that Player A paid six times his ship's Move Cost twice (Turn X, Impulse #8 and Turn Y Energy Allocation Phase) for the following effect:
No Evasive Maneuvering effects in Turn X, Impulse #8 except the restrictions on the Other and Launch Phases.
Evasive Maneuvering effects cover all of Turn Y, Impulses #1 & 2
This is the only method of using the effects of Evasive Maneuvering that would effect Offensive Fire during Impulse #1 of any turn.
If any of that is in error, please correct me and my understanding of Evasive Maneuvering as it currently stands. I am sorry to be this long winded, but I wished to be crystal clear and avoid any ambiguity in meaning by shortening my words.
Thanks,
OGRE AI
Nice example, let's see what he says.