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Federation Saber Dance?
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pinecone
Fleet Captain


Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
Location: Earth

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, I plan to use this tactic in my next Fed on Klingon match.
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pneumonic81
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 275
Location: Austin TX

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 3:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I often save my acclerations for that last couple of impulses in the turn to jump in and get that shot. But if its not going to work, you can do as Mike suggested and fire regulars outside range 8. 8 points is 8 points, and it will hurt if it hits.
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DNordeen
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 523

PostPosted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

YES! I would just love for someone to try this tactic on me! Twisted Evil You can't turn, you can only fire once every two turns, AND the to hit is 1 out of 6 outside range 12!

Let see...I can turn better (Kzin or Klink), fire every turn, and have a 50% chance to hit at range 15. Just to make it more fun, I have a lot of drones to make it harder for that oversized barge to manuever! What's not to like?

Basically trying to borrow tactics that are not suited for the ship you are flying is a bad strategy. There are plenty of tactics designed around the Feds strengths (hard-hitting, lots of phasers, etc.) Using the saber dance emphasizes the Fed's weakness and ignores their strengths.

To be successful, you need to identify the weakness and strengths of your ship, and then use tactics that play to your strengths and overcomes your weaknesses. This tactic is doing the opposite by playing to the Fed weakness and overcoming it's strengths.
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PallidaMors
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Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 474
Location: Seattle, Wa

PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In scenario #3 of the planet killer mini-campaign, the Klingons in an effort to locate the Planet Killer have taken all assigned patrol vessels to try find the huge doomsday machince.

The F-5 IKV Gratu'l was near the federation border, and now with a state of war existing there was an escalated presence near the klingon border of Federation Patrol ships. The USS Interceptor a standard FF signaled and challenged the F-5. The USS Interceptor is commnaded by an Anodorian.

The two ships fought a great I mean awesome battle of maneuver and sabre fighting. The USS interceptor was the victor after about 3 hours of battle. The F-5 withdrew crippled and nearly destroyed, the Fed FF was moderatly damaged, and received 20 VP

they have promoted thier Weapons officer to level 2

next the third scenario wheret he klingons find the doomsday machine..........
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remeber that one too.
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Mike
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Joined: 07 May 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That F5 vs. FF battle sounded as if it had a fairly routine outcome. A Fed FF *should* be able to defeat the F5 if luck is about the same for both sides.
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pinecone
Fleet Captain


Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The F5 is better in Fleet scale.
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dstancliffe
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Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinecone wrote:
The F5 is better in Fleet scale.


I doubt it. The FF has the same decisive advantage in both scales - it's paying half as much as its opponent for movement. It can do maximum speed holding full overload(s) under EM until ready to fire. Fleet scale is a bit more of a lottery, of course, with just the one photon hit roll, but in principle the FF should always win. Or so it seems to me.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fleet the F5 has better phasers, better arcs, better sheilds, better Drone/anti-drone, better everything.
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dstancliffe
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Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All true in Squadron scale, as well, and the F5 always loses. The one minor disadvantage the FF has on the fleet scale conversion is that it has no Fleet Scale representation for the P3s (but it does round the 3 P1s to 2 P1s, which is a shade better that the F5 rounding 3 P2s to 2).

In either scale, the F5 is gutted after one attack run from the Fed. Which it can do damn-all to stop.
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TJolley
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 25 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The key for the Klingon player in that case is to close as quickly as possible on turn one.

The Fed FF can't afford to be under EM, OL the Photon, and keep speed up -something has to give. If the F5 can close on turn 1 and get in a decent volley on 1.7 or 1.8 and do the Drone wave thing, it's an interesting game.

(Fleet Scale assumptions)
The Fed either has to take the initial volley from the Klingon and hope the photon survives, or fire a standard or only partially OL'd Photon, which leaves him pretty vulnerable on turn 2 having to deal with 1 or 2 Klingon drones, which will tie up most of his available firepower, while his Heavy Weapon is recharging.

On the other hand, if the Klingon does not aggressively close and the Fed is allowed to sit back and fully overload that Photon..goodbye F5. The Fed FF has enough power on turn 2 to hold the Photon, move at 24+1, accelerate every impulse, and be on EM for as long as necessary.

In a FF duel, in this case, the Saber Dance leads to a dead F5. Aggressive tactics are required by the Klingon to win this type of game.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 25, 2008 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In a FF duel, in this case, the Saber Dance leads to a dead F5.


I have to disagree with that statement. The Saber Dance is the Klingon tactic of choice. I found it difficult to believe that saber dancing at range 15 against a Fed leads to your death. The Fed can't hit a barn at range 15 (1 out of 6 to hit). The F5 is more manueverable, too. I would be amazed to see a good Klingon captain defeated by a Fed FF consistently.

If necessary, I'll only fire 1 disruptor to keep my speed up, but that shouldn't be necessary. At full speed and firing both disruptors, the F5 still has 4 pts of power (6 with batteries) to play with. Unlike the FF, the F5 doesn't have to dedicate power to heavy weapons, so if necessary, the F5 has 4 more points to use.

On the other side, closing with a Fed is suicide. They hit hard at close range. The disruptor has the same damage and hit chance at range 5 that it does at range 15 while the photon gets more accurate. There's no point risking a more accurate and overloaded photon when the disruptor has not improved.

Additionally, closing on turn 1 is suicide if the Fed uses rule 4C2C and the photons are armed on Turn 1. Very few Feds I play against ignore that rule.

Lastly saying X ship always wins against Y ship with similar point value is the same arrogance of a hundred years ago...The Titanic is unsinkable.

Competent captains dueling FF vs F5 will both win some, but neither will be close to winning them all. The FF will use his speed to get close and the F5 will use speed to stay away and manueverability to Saber Dance. Sometimes one will succeed and sometimes the other will.
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dstancliffe
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Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen wrote:
The Saber Dance is the Klingon tactic of choice. I found it difficult to believe that saber dancing at range 15 against a Fed leads to your death. The Fed can't hit a barn at range 15 (1 out of 6 to hit). The F5 is more manueverable, too. I would be amazed to see a good Klingon captain defeated by a Fed FF consistently.


Once the FF has overloads ready, he makes speed 32 with EM - that is, he moves closer to the F5 on every subpulse. The game starts at range 15 (the F5 can't hurt the FF outside that range), and the F5 can't sabre-dance there. If he doesn't move away from the Fed every sub-pulse the FF will close, eventually to overload range. (And just running away leads to stalemate on an open map, Federation victory on a closed map).

The Klingon can jerk around a bit and get some shots in on the approach, but with FA disruptors and a turn mode of 4, every heavy weapon shot costs a lot of ground. Expected damage from a disruptor outside overload range (with EM) is one point, from a phaser it's one sixth of a point. Which is never going to stop the FF in time.

Fleet scale makes it better for the F5 in one respect - the drones are more significant. It is a much harder decision for the FF to take a drone hit on a non-facing flank shield rather than drop EM in fleet scale, and stopping a drone takes up much more of the FF's phaser and energy resources. But on the other hand, the Fed player can afford to give ground - the tactical cost of making a run into range 15, drawing a drone launch, dealing with it, and then coming back, is negligible. In fleet scale, the idea of a frigate reloading its drone rack is an optimist's wildest fantasy, so once the drones are gone, there's not much left for the Klingon to do.

I'd still expect the F5 to lose every time except to very inept, or very unlucky, Federation play.
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junior
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Joined: 08 May 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the F5 had the infamous "Range 10 Disruptors". Am I misremembering?
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2922
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

******
In FedCom, disruptors are Disruptors. There is only one firing chart (unlike SFB).

The increase in usability for the smaller Klingon ships helps offset the loss of things like DERFACS, UIM's, etc.

****

EDIT: This is flat-out wrong and I should know better than to post without checking.
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Last edited by djdood on Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:08 am; edited 2 times in total
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