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Federation Saber Dance?
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, the F5 does only have range 15 distruptors in squad scale (not sure why it doesn't in fleet).
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junior
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdood wrote:
In FedCom, disruptors are Disruptors. There is only one firing chart (unlike SFB).


Not true. The rules for disruptors explicitly mention that certain smaller ships can only fire their disruptors out to a limited range. The exact ships affected by this have the range limitation printed on the card.

Off the top of my head, I think it's the E4, F5, Kzinti FF, and *maybe* the smaller Lyran ships.


Quote:
No, the F5 does only have range 15 distruptors in squad scale (not sure why it doesn't in fleet).


Sounds like errata fodder then. I'm sure that it should be the same range in both scales.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Could Mikejwest clarify if that's the way it should be played?
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still disagree that the FF will win every time.

1) Just because the enemy is in my FA arc doesn't mean I'm in his FA arc.

2) If the FF overloads the torps, The F5 can fire at range 9-15 all day long.

3) If the FF is using EM that just means the F5 can fire without worrying about being fired upon. EM can only be dropped during the accel phase, so if the FF drops EM, the F5 has time to move out of the FA arc (if he is actually in that arc) or out of range before the offensive fire step.

4) EM adds 1 to the turn mode, so the F5 is now more manuevarable which improves the F5's chances of getting into the FF's RX arc.

5) A good Klingon player can use an oblique approach to close to range 15, fire, and run out beyond range 15. Over and over.

If you're constantly winning against a ship with equivalent BPV, it's probably your opponent not the ship.
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djdood
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry. I was wrong (and dumb for posting without checking; at work).
Original post edited to prevent bad information from propagating.
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Last edited by djdood on Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:47 am; edited 1 time in total
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jmt
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Played and F5 vs FF game this Wednesday; we had to call it after 5 turns but it was an even scrap. Both ships had damaged shields but no internals. There was a lot of really bad die rolls (both initial volleys of overloaded heavy weapons box-carred Rolling Eyes ) so most damage was phaser and drone.

In retrospect, the F5 vs FF dual worked out to be as balanced as CA vs D7.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And which usually wins there? i've done that battle but against an inexpirenced Klingon player.
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jmt
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So far, its' about 50/50 when played by experienced players. I've used this matchup as a way to teach the game to folks and in that the BFI of the photon gives the Federation about a +10% edge.

BFI = Brute Force and Ignorance; usually the Klingon messes up his maneuver and the Federation gets a lucky shot. The result is a severely crippled F5.
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dstancliffe
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Joined: 24 Oct 2007
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coming back to this after a holiday ...

DNordeen wrote:
I still disagree that the FF will win every time.

1) Just because the enemy is in my FA arc doesn't mean I'm in his FA arc.


In the situation we are talking about (on the approach, range 9 to 15) he'd need to be playing pretty badly not to have your ship in the FA arc if he wants it.

Quote:
2) If the FF overloads the torps, The F5 can fire at range 9-15 all day long.


That's the point - while that may generally be the case against Federation ships, it specifically isn't against the FF. The F5 can't stay at range (except in a straight stern chase) because the FF can hold overloads AND move in all 32 sub-pulses AND be evasive.

Quote:
3) If the FF is using EM that just means the F5 can fire without worrying about being fired upon. EM can only be dropped during the accel phase, so if the FF drops EM, the F5 has time to move out of the FA arc (if he is actually in that arc) or out of range before the offensive fire step.


The few shots which the F5 gets at ranges 9 to 15 don't matter because the expected damage is negligible. When the FF declares that EM is being dropped, the F5 has, at most, 4 hexes of movement to get out of range or arc. Since the FF, handled competently, also has 4 hexes of movement and can decelerate and turn if needed, there is no reason why the FF should not get the shot.

Quote:
4) EM adds 1 to the turn mode, so the F5 is now more manuevarable which improves the F5's chances of getting into the FF's RX arc.


True, but not significant at range 9+. The increased turn mode really bites during close-quarter manouvering, but the FF won't be evasive then - she'll be trying to unload photons into the Klingon.

Quote:
5) A good Klingon player can use an oblique approach to close to range 15, fire, and run out beyond range 15. Over and over.


Only against a bad Federation player.

Once the Klingon is at range 15 (and he can't do anything outside that range, so he needs to get there at some point), he can only ever run out of range if the FF lets him, by declining to move towards him in any given sub-pulse. And the FF never needs to do that.

Every time the Klingon wants to fire he has to spend several sub-pulses not moving away, so the Fed will close the range. Once inside overload range, the F5 loses unless the dice-gods are really on his side.

Quote:
If you're constantly winning against a ship with equivalent BPV, it's probably your opponent not the ship.


It doesn't matter who plays which ship. Once the FF player realises that his ship has, in effect, no significant tactical trade-offs and can make full speed with full defence and full guns, the F5 (being a much more interesting ship) is toast.

Which is why the FF is, IMHO, the least enjoyable Fed ship to play, and the DD (where every point of energy spent means that you can't do something else which you really would like to) the most.
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinecone wrote:
No, the F5 does only have range 15 distruptors in squad scale (not sure why it doesn't in fleet).


The F5 has range 15 disruptors in both scales.

In general, if there is a note like that (disruptor range, drone control, limited option mounts, or any other special special ability or limitation) on one scale, it will apply to the other scale.

BTW, the only ships that have their disruptors limited to 15 hexes are the Klingon F5 and F4, the Kzinti FF, and the Lyran FF. All others (including the Lyran DD, Tholian DD and NFF, and the Klingon E5) have disruptors with 25 hex range.
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silent bob
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

where does it say this? is it in the rules? cos cant see it on the ship cards, maybe I am having a blind moment.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

silent bob wrote:
where does it say this? is it in the rules? cos cant see it on the ship cards, maybe I am having a blind moment.


On the ship cards. All of the ships I listed (K-F5, K-E4, Z-FF, L-FF) have notes on the ship card saying the disruptors are limited to 15 hexes. The only caveat is that the K-F5 only lists it on the squadron scale side. However, this was just an oversight regarding the fleet scale side. When the K-F5 was reprinted in Communique (I forget which one), it had this oversight corrected.
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silent bob
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thought it would be there, cool found it, was having a blind moment.
had to ask as using an F5 on weds.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
That's the point - while that may generally be the case against Federation ships, it specifically isn't against the FF. The F5 can't stay at range (except in a straight stern chase) because the FF can hold overloads AND move in all 32 sub-pulses AND be evasive.


I had not noticed that! There is something seriously wrong with this. I just did a box compare, and one of the two is just not right.

The FF has heavier shielding, 1 more tractor, 1 more shuttle, 1 more bridge. Weapons are fairly equivalent (2 heavys, 5 phasers, 1 drone), F5 has 1 more hull, heavier phasers (ph-2 vs ph-3), an ADD and more power.

The additional power is offset by the higher move cost and the ph-2's are offset by the more limited power. I'm trying to figure out how the F5 is so much bigger that it requires more power to move (it's only got +3 boxes; if you count the shields it actually has less than the FF by 4).

So...how is the FF point cost less then the F5? 82 vs 78. And why does the FF have the same turn mode as the F5? I thought Klingons are supposed to be more manueverable than Feds in equivalent ships?

The FF is screaming MUNCHKIN as currently compared to the F5. Or it could be that the F5 is overvalued. I'll have to compare to other frigates.

I revise my statement from before...

If you're constantly winning against a ship with equivalent BPV (ASSUMING THAT THE BPV IS ACCURATE), it's probably your opponent not the ship.
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TJolley
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fed FF has always been a beast of a ship. Probably the best Frigate in the game.

I guess folks were feeling sorry for the Federation pig turn modes and threw them a bone Smile

It's not a big deal in SFB though, as folks tend to use the fleet construction rules, so you won't have more than a couple of FF on the board.

In a duel with the F5, the Fed FF should win 75%+ of the time with equivalently skilled captains.

Assuming location or tournament map, and starting positions roughly 40 hexes apart:

Turn 1 Fed corner dives, or moves to keep range open while finishing the full OL of the photons. EM if necessary

Turn 2, Fed moves at 24+1 and goes on EM as allowed depending on the drone launches of the Klingon. During this turn the Fed should be able to close to range 0-2. If not turn 2, then turn 3 definately.

At this point the wonder weapon kicks in as in "I wonder if my photons will hit". If Fed-boy can get to range 0 nose to nose (seriously reducing the firepower available to the Klingon )..give it up..auto hit photons, plus phasers..wrecked F5. If the F5 is on erratic to avoid this fire, then there are no drones to worry about, you can stay on top of him (or very near) and just pound with phaser 1's until he comes off of EM (when you then hit him with OL photons) or dies from phaser death.

Now if the wonder weapon misses..then you have a whole new ball-game. The advantage for the next turn goes over to the Klingon.

What it comes down to, is do you hit with your first volley of OL photons or not. The F5/FF dual is pretty boring really..
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