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Federation Saber Dance?
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junior
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Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

iirc in SFB, the Fed FF had a movement cost of 1/3. Obviously that isn't used in FedCom, so it got knocked down to 1/4. As a result it ends up with more free power than it originally had.

There are other ships that get bonuses from little oddball things like that, but imo the Fed FF (which was already a good ship for its size in SFB) is one of the most pronounced examples.
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DNordeen
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Joined: 05 Apr 2007
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So I'm looking at all the ship cards that have "frigate" in the name. I haven't done any indepth comparisions yet, but I think I could take an F5 with an E4. That doesn't seem right at all. Looking at the E4 it can go speed 32, use EM, fire both disruptors and still have 1.5 pts of power left for drone defense (1 ADD, 1 ph-3 and 1 tractor). Not to mention the shielding is almost identical (Same #1 and 12 vs 16 on all others).

One correction from a previous post, The F5 has Turn Mode A which is better than the Fed FF. Don't know why I thought they were the same. Embarassed

I'm curious why the F5 which is listed as a Frigate didn't get the 1/4 move cost also. Anyone know? 1/4 move cost would completely rebalance the F5 against the other frigates. Anyway, more to follow...
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junior
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The F5 didn't get the 1/4 movement cost because in SFB it has a 1/2 movement cost. So it kept the same movement cost that it had in the original form.

The F5 is sometimes referred to as the weakest destroyer in known space instead of referring to it by the frigate designation that it bears.
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But it's also the weakest frigate, which is fine by me, a Fed player. And the Feds have the best DD also (four photons Very Happy ). The light cruiser is another story...
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is just my opinion, but if it's the weakest DD, then it should be able to hold its own against the frigates.

I'm still working on the comparisions, but the E4 definitely has a better power curve than the F5. Going speed 24 and firing the disruptors, the E4 has 6 power left and the F5 has 6 power left. With the lower move cost, the E4 has a lot more options on how to use that energy (EM, HET, accel, decel). If we up it to speed 32 and firing disruptors, the E4 has 4 power left and the F5 has 2 power.

I really believe I could beat an F5 with an E4 better than half the time. That should not be possible. Why would the Klingons build the F5 so that their own E4 could beat it? In other words, why would the "biggest" frigate lose to it's little brother?

Also, the Selt FF has 57 internals compared to the F5's 52 internals, but the Selt has move cost 1/4... I know it's a direct port from SFB, but is there anyway to petition for a 1/4 move cost for the F5?

It doesn't have the shields to take the hits from a frigate and it doesn't have the power to hit them back. To balance it, one or the other would need to change. The easiest is the power curve (i.e., 1/4 move cost). Of course, I'm assuming that the F5 should be balanced. If everyone's good with the biggest Frigate/smallest DD being beat up by most of the frigates, then it doesn't need to be changed. Personally, I play Kzinti's so it doesn't break my heart, I just prefer balanced fights.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The underlying issue is that all of the 1/4 movement ships were originally designed to be 1/3 movement. As a result, they get an effective increase in power, particularly as it relates to movement.

The problem with the F5 is that it is probably the weakest 1/2 movement ship in the whole game. So, you have the weakest ship in its movement class fighting against ships that have gained a lot.

This caused a long ranging debate in the Legacy boards right after Federation Commander was first published. The eventual decision was to just live with it. While individual matchups could cause problems, overall (especially in squadron and fleet battles), it evened out.

BTW, this problem (in reverse) happens with "old style" light cruisers that have their movement increased 2/3 to 3/4. This isn't much of a problem with war cruisers (who have power to burn), but hurts ships like the Kzinti CL and the Lyran CL (when it gets published).

So, at this point, it is what it is.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The old fed CL has a ton of energy at it's disposal (and four batteries), but only two photons. The DD has less energy but much more firepower (four photons). I think the classifications should be switched here, as most DD's only have three-four heavy weapons (equal of the Fed CL), and most light cruisers have four-six Heavy weapons (Equal of the Fed DD).

Note that I counted drones as Heavy weapons, and pl-S and G as two.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Fed OCL does not fit what I am talking about. The Fed OCL has always been a 3/4 mover. Therefore, it didn't change and works pretty much as it always did. The Kzinti and Lyran (and any other low-powered 2/3 mover) are the ones that end up suffering.

The OCL and DD are designated as such because of their sizes, not because of their weapons loads. They are correctly named for their size. The OCL also has a reasonable weapons load for what it is (non-war light cruiser). The anomoly is the DD, which has cruiser weapons on a destroyer hull.
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willhc
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, the power curve of the Fed DD is awful in SFB. It can't move fast while arming all of it's photons. The drone variant is better (the plasma a bit as well) but the original is much more suited to bombardment roles as in SFB you could arm proximity photons and blast away at range. In FC I'd be interested to see how well it would do against other ships. Might have to try one in our next game.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've noticed that if the DD uses power to fully charge (L, OL+4, Ol+Cool it's photons, it only has one power left. It would have to have (or fully) overload during the pre load stage.

Then again, we must remeber that the DD in FC has a drone rack, unlike SFB.
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TJolley
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Joined: 25 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

willhc wrote:
In FC I'd be interested to see how well it would do against other ships. Might have to try one in our next game.


It's a blast to play. In fleet Scale, it is 55 points, so 2 are the exact same point value as a Klingon C-7.

I've played that match up many times, and it is running about 50/50..it's an even fight.

the DD is fun to play as you have such a bad power curve, the the capability of dishing out a powerful punch..if you can manage to get off a full volley..and hit.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I don't get is why the fleet DD is the same point value as a skyhawk. Their phasers are equal, but the heavy weapons of the DD are eccedingly better.
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Nerroth
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, according to the DDM details in Captain's Log, the original DD only had two photons, and the 4-torp model was supposed to be a variant used for base assaults and whatnot.


Of course, one could simply fly the DD as if it were a DDM, and not load more than two photons at a go...
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and those two unloaded tube make great "pads" for the two that are.
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MJ: I missed that debate on the legacy site. Since i'm just rehashing it, I'll let it go. I don't play Klingon anyway.
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