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Hydran fusion ships
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DNordeen
Commander


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 532

PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 3:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh...I latched onto


Quote:
Tractor anchor to protect the fighters


and took that to mean TJolley was talking about the SFB tractor restrictions. The exec in me would rewrite it to say

"At that point, the primary task of the capital ship is to be a weapons soak to protect the fighters until they are out from under the firing restriction while using a tractor anchor to slow down as many enemy ships as possible."

But that's just the nitpicky gramatician in me (the lobotomies aren't working!!) Laughing
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junior
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Joined: 08 May 2007
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DNordeen wrote:
The Ph-G's make it very hard to get a drone through. Hydrans can basically pop 4 drones for 1 pt of power while everyone else requires 2 pts.


It's possible. But statistically speaking more often you're going to be looking at 2-3 drones due to the fact that a 5 or 6 only does three points of damage and therefore won't kill the drone. Because of that, if it's only a couple of drones then I frequently prefer to fire a couple of pulses from the Phaser at each drone to guarantee the kill. It cuts into your point-blank firepower somewhat, but it also means that you don't have to spend an extra point of energy for a tractor beam for each of the drones that got through (and Hydrans tend to have plenty of tractor beams).


Quote:
Thing is in a 1-v-1, no matter which side you run, you'd always want to take the best ship for whatever point cost is used. In the 110-120 range I'm taking the D-5 as a Klingon, hands down.


Since my example was meant to be representative, it made more sense to avoid ships that have a reputation for being particularly good or bad buys for the points spent (such as the vanilla F5 for the opposite reason as the D5 - not that it was close enough in points cost to be an option). It also makes sense to pick combat vessels that are as close as is reasonably possible to the points value of the ship that you're inspecting. Yes, the D5 is somewhat close to the Ranger in points cost. But it does cost several points more, and there are three different Klingon FedCom vessels that are all closer in value.

Remember that this isn't "picking ships for a duel". It's "pick a ship that has the same points value and compare".
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marcus_aurelius
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Joined: 07 Jun 2008
Posts: 254
Location: Cary IL

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 4:38 am    Post subject: Stinger launch timing Reply with quote

In the near future I want to try a pure Hydran fusion fleet again for the first time in many years. I want to try the Ranger / Lancer classes that go all the way back to when I got my SFB Designer Edition Expansion #1.

Ever since I started playing more FC than SFB I have been afraid
to try a pure fusion fleet in FC for all of the previous reasons given
on this thread PLUS the speed issue with Stingers in FC:
I remember that the Stinger in SFB moved at 15 (?), so it gained 1 speed in FC. But ships gained 4+ more speed due to the removal of life support, fire control scanners, shield power, ECM, etc. So the relative speed increase of ships to Stingers now seems to be 3+.

So how does this play into the timing of Stinger launches?

1. Do you want until range 0-2 to launch Stingers?
Then hopefully the target doesn't get too far away during the next 2 movement phases before the Stingers can fire. Most ships will probably be doing a speed of 24+1 once Stingers are close. It seems that with the tractor rules, a tractoring Hydran would need to move at 24+1 in order to retain control of the movement under tractor (?).

2. Or, do you launch on the impluse before the 0-2 range, e.g. at ~range 4-5?

2. Or is there another tactic?
e.g. Launch the Stingers earlier have them do EM and plod toward the target (on a non-floating map) at speed 16. etc.

Help! If I time it wrong, it would definately end up as a "catastrophic fail" and then I would go have to back to the safe option for me which is the Dragoon (most likely without fighters).
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1882

PostPosted: Sun Jun 06, 2010 10:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had another thread about tourney hydrans, the 2010 rules limit to 8 stingers but the 2009 rules didn't.

Whilst my tactics were specific to the old tourney setup and conditions, I found it pretty effective in that setup. That involved a launch at range 10+.
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
Posts: 1865
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 08, 2010 8:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a thought...

In a fleet engagement with Fusion Hydrans, wouldn't the threat of close range fusions be enough to scare the opponent away from closing below Range 3? Sabre Dancers can only do so much before they close the range, and with the stingers you could "sandwhich" the enemy into coming within Fusion/Gatling range.
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Mike
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

School's out! Smile
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4470
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mike wrote:
School's out! Smile


hahaha - that's funny. But only because I thought the same thing.

Welcome back, pinecone. Hope you got good grades.
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USS Enterprise
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Joined: 27 Feb 2009
Posts: 376
Location: Vulcan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinecone wrote:
Just a thought...

In a fleet engagement with Fusion Hydrans, wouldn't the threat of close range fusions be enough to scare the opponent away from closing below Range 3? Sabre Dancers can only do so much before they close the range, and with the stingers you could "sandwhich" the enemy into coming within Fusion/Gatling range.


This seems rational.

I would think perfect balance is impossible to achieve.
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 09, 2010 11:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
Mike wrote:
School's out! Smile


hahaha - that's funny. But only because I thought the same thing.

Welcome back, pinecone. Hope you got good grades.


He-he Smile Thanks guys! I have some more time now and want to get back into playing regularly.

And Enterprise, a perfect balance would be impossible, but target his energy to get him slow enough for the other force to finish Wink
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duxvolantis
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Joined: 16 Nov 2010
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 8:37 am    Post subject: Re: Hydran fusion ships Reply with quote

Kang wrote:
We have noticed that it's very hard to clobber a Klingon or Lyran with a Hydran fusion-only ship [ie no hellbores].

Anyone else found this problem? It would be a help if you could 'hold' fusion beams like you can in SFB.

I think it depends on the scenario. In open space the disrupter race can take pot shots at evasive maneuvering Hydrans all day long. Eventually they will do telling damage. In a squadron action this might take forever with the FC shield regen rules. In a larger fleet action, of course, they can plink even at -2 on the die roll and focus fire will generate meaningful damage over time.

But if there is any objective or terrain compelling an engagement and preventing a perpetual sabre dance the Hydrans will probably be a very good fight. They have great power curves during cooldown or if they just forego arming all their fusions and even without arming fusions even their destroyers can generate 30-40 internals on a fresh shield at close range just from gatlings and phasers. Add to that the Hydran anchor and the subsequent ability to essentially guarantee an Impulse 1 firing solution at close range with full overloads (not to mention any fighters that remain) and it can go from a situation where you have some dinged up Hydrans to having some blown up Klingons.
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Dan Ibekwe
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Joined: 08 Mar 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The most lethal weapon systems in a Fusion fleet are the fighter's gatlings. I'd suggest the best use for the ship is to close with and tractor the enemy to ensure the fighters can get a clean range 2 or closer shot.

Compared to SFB, Fusions have been weakened by losing half their numbers on fighters and Fusion Holding on ships; Hellbores have lost the ability to combine their fire with the firing ship's phasers on the same impulse, and also lost direct-fire mode.

In FC there are (currently) no enemy fighters, PFs or large and/or armoured drones to shoot down.

Gatlings are as a result more important as anti-ship weapons in FC than they were in SFB.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fusion fleets big loss are 30 spd fighters --
Yes, they take double damage --
but it wasn't required you run up and tractor then launch, so the target wouldn't just run away or stay at distance and snipe the fighters off --
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
Fusion fleets big loss are 30 spd fighters --
Yes, they take double damage --
but it wasn't required you run up and tractor then launch, so the target wouldn't just run away or stay at distance and snipe the fighters off --


FWIW Fusion fleets were challenged against Disruptor fleets in open space in SFB too so this is not an FC-only thing. Yes, Fusion and Stingers got weaker in FC but Hydrans still blow up ships at close range.

Fusion fleets were designed to take meaningful objectives (BATS). It was not until the hybrid and hellbore ships became widespread that the Hydrans could expect anything but a slow, painful death against Klinks and Lyrans in the absence of a scenario that demanded close engagement.
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Dan Ibekwe
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Fusion fleets were designed to take meaningful objectives (BATS).


Er, yeah, just like plasma ships...weren't. They were intended to be - and originally were - the striking arm of the fleet.

The whole 'fleet refit' idea in SFB arose circa 1981 partly to cover the weakness of the Klingons against the newly added Hydrans - the ADD spread from a one-off piece of wierdness on the Klingon Tug to all their ships, glass rear shields were thickened up, the Lyrans were invented, et.c. et.c. Odd as it now seems, back then the Hydrans were generally regarded as *too strong*.

You try to limit the role of fusion beams (unhistorically) to base assaults because you are not aware how effective they were then, you only see how feeble they have now become. An understandable mistake.
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duxvolantis
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Ibekwe wrote:
Quote:
Fusion fleets were designed to take meaningful objectives (BATS).


Er, yeah, just like plasma ships...weren't. They were intended to be - and originally were - the striking arm of the fleet.

The whole 'fleet refit' idea in SFB arose circa 1981 partly to cover the weakness of the Klingons against the newly added Hydrans - the ADD spread from a one-off piece of wierdness on the Klingon Tug to all their ships, glass rear shields were thickened up, the Lyrans were invented, et.c. et.c. Odd as it now seems, back then the Hydrans were generally regarded as *too strong*.

You try to limit the role of fusion beams (unhistorically) to base assaults because you are not aware how effective they were then, you only see how feeble they have now become. An understandable mistake.

I played SFB back then. I remember when Hydrans came out and they were a favored race of mine.

I won with them often. Nothing is more beautiful than the lowly Lancer gutting a D7.

But on an open map Disruptor races that chose to sabre dance against a pure-Fusion fleet were the most difficult opponents. Not unbeatable by any means, but the massed fire of a distruptor fleet at range 15, even against an EM shift, is much superior to what the Hydrans can do. And the Hydrans had a devil's choice against sabre-dancing klingons: deploy fighters and risk them being picked off and long range before they can be decisive or keep them onboard and lose all the fusions they could contribute to the ranged damage.

If you do anything to compel engagement or constrain the map, fusion becomes much more powerful which is why I mentioned BATS. But really any scenario with an objective helps the fusion ships out a lot.

Even a few Hellbores changed the picture dramatically.
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