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Crippled....

 
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Vladimyr
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Joined: 29 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:24 pm    Post subject: Crippled.... Reply with quote

A couple of questions:

According to the rulebook, "Crippling is defined as causing internal damage equal to one-half of all boxes."

Does this include frame damage? We've never counted admin shuttle damage or marine casualties for this total as it didn't seem like internal damage to the ship. Is this right?

For point values, we count stingers as 10 points for each confirmed kill, and zero points for any damaged or crippled fighters. Is this correct?
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

By the victory system, I'd say crippled stingers should count as 5 points, but only after seven damgae (when they lose some abilities.) Since frame damage IS a target on the DAC, then it probably would count for the total boxes, thus fir determineing crippledness.
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe it is ( internal boxes (+1 for probe launcher if you are playing at Fleet Scale - no box on card) +Frame/2 ) +1

So 50% +1 to be Crippled. You still receive 50% BPV even if the ship manages to repair enough boxes and ends the game not crippled any more..it's a threshold that once crossed you get the points for.

Stingers would count 1 VP for 1-6 damage points and 5VP for 7-9 damage points, as well as 10vp if destroyed. You still receive 5VP even if they Stinger lands and gets repaired so that it is no longer crippled.

It's not in the rules, but we count Stingers as "Destroyed" for VP purposes if their capital ship gets destroyed, as they have no place to land after the battle. But that is definitely a house rule Smile
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Vladimyr
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJ, where did you find the rules that you quoted? Perhaps my rulebook is out of date. Romulan border plus Briefing #1.

Looking through the rules I have, Romulan Border states that you can repair yourself back out of being crippled.

The partial points for Stingers you detail I have not found in any of my books.

Do you have a reference I can refer to?
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fighter = ship for firing, and it has a point cost, can cause significant damage, and can be damaged, crippled, destroyed, and forced to disengage, so the rules rovolving around getting VP for those actions must apply. Otherwise you can never beat a Hydran using standard Vicotry conditions, as they can lose 30% or more of a fleets value and not lose a single victory point.

The flip side to that is show me where Fighters DON'T count for victory purposes. A unit that can cause 35 points or so of damage at range 0 has no bearing on victory conditions? A unit that can be up to 40% or more of the total value of forces fielded count as zero toward victory? Um..no..show me that rule Smile

Check Scenario #1 in Klingon Border that details standard victory conditions about the repairing crippled ships back above crippled status..that or it's in an archive on this board or the legacy site. Once a ship is crippled, it's crippled for counting toward victory points.
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Vladimyr
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 4:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry if I didn't come across the right way, or was in any way unclear.

I don't deny that fighters cost VP. I just wanted to know where their crippled VP value was written, if anywhere. As far as I know, they count as a special type of shuttle (which previously awarded no VPs), so I assumed that they would need a rule to specify their crippled VP value, that's all.

As far as Klingon Border goes, I can't find Scenario #1.
I can only find under (8B2b) Scoring Points, the same reference that I quoted from the newer ruleset:

"Crippling is defined as causing internal damage equal to one-half of all boxes (not counting boxes repaired before the end of the scenario)."

Not 1/2 +1.

In other words, you need to cause damage equal to one-half of the internal boxes, and don't include as part of that count any boxes that your opponent was able to repair.

At least that's the way that I have always read it.

Though I have been wrong before. Any other interpretations?
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There is a scenario that counts shuttles with a point value of 1 (The Old Shell Game).

The other problem goes back to the yet undifined "fractions raised, or dropped?"
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vladimyr wrote:
I don't deny that fighters cost VP. I just wanted to know where their crippled VP value was written, if anywhere. As far as I know, they count as a special type of shuttle (which previously awarded no VPs), so I assumed that they would need a rule to specify their crippled VP value, that's all.


Well, Standard Victory conditions (Listed in Scenario #1, KA - I believe) give the following values for determining victory points:

10% of BPV for Damage
25% of BPV for unit disengagement
50% of BPV for unit being crippled
100% of BPV for unit being destroyed
Really high % of BPV for capture of unit.

Fighter rules define crippling on the Stinger as 7+ damage points (Distant Kingdoms). So the rest follows:

1 BPV for causing 1-6 points of damage
5 BPV for causing 7-9 points of damage
10 BPV for destroying a Stinger
2 BPV for forcing it to disengage

The only thing I don't know is if you can capture a Stinger. I know you can't beam on boarding parties..but I don't know if you can use your tractor beam and force a Stinger to land, thereby capturing it.
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silent bob
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 3:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

would doubt it. do you really want to bring something with a gatling phaser inside your hull?
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junior
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wouldn't allow capturing Stingers that way. iirc, in SFB there were rules to allow the firing of weapons inside the shuttle bay (though I could be misremembering). And given that fighters are frequently remotely piloted in the SFU, it's not as if the pilot has to worry about bringing the shuttle bay down around the fighter.

But if you captured a ship that had Stingers sitting inside their fighter bays, then I would allow the capturing of the Stingers that way.

Quote:
It's not in the rules, but we count Stingers as "Destroyed" for VP purposes if their capital ship gets destroyed, as they have no place to land after the battle. But that is definitely a house rule


Given that Stingers do carry enough fuel to perform a distant strike and return to their carrier or base, imo it would be better to count them as "Disengaged". Sure, they can't land on their original unit. But there's a decent chance that there's a friendly unit in range, particularly if the location of the battle isn't deep behind enemy lines.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is: (ship system + frame damage) / 2.

Probe does not count in fleet scale (as it is not a "box"). No "+1", as it is "half damage", not "more than half damage".

If a ship is damaged to this level, but can repair itself above this before the end of the scenario, then it is no longer "crippled".

For Stingers, I think it makes most sense for what TJ posted:
Destroyed: 10
Crippled (7-9 damage points): 5
Damaged (1-6 damage points): 1
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TJolley
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
It is: (ship system + frame damage) / 2.

Probe does not count in fleet scale (as it is not a "box").


But Fleet scal ships have probe launchers, they have ammo tracks and they can be hit on the DAC..Why wouldn't they count toward cripple status?

mjwest wrote:

If a ship is damaged to this level, but can repair itself above this before the end of the scenario, then it is no longer "crippled".


LOL..All the times I read that rule I did not see the word 'not'..Funny how that can change the meaning of the rule Smile
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Several Lyran Ships and the Fleet Battleships have a probe if I remeber correctly, for they have two in squad.

Also, would two Probe launchers=2 armed probes when crippled?
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TJolley wrote:
But Fleet scale ships have probe launchers, they have ammo tracks and they can be hit on the DAC..Why wouldn't they count toward cripple status?


Because (8B2b) says, "... equal to one-half of all boxes ..." (emphasis mine). Since the rule makes specific reference to "boxes", I felt compelled to ignore the fleet scale probe, since it has no box.

pinecone wrote:
Several Lyran Ships and the Fleet Battleships have a probe if I remeber correctly, for they have two in squad.


Nope, no fleet scale ship has a probe box on the ship card. Even the Lyran DN and Federation BB (which each have two probe launchers in squadron scale), have no probe box and a single probe ammo track in fleet scale.

pinecone wrote:
Also, would two Probe launchers=2 armed probes when crippled?


First, the condition for using armed probes is not crippled, but rather "when one-half or more of the non-phaser weapons are disabled."

Second, yes. If you are eligible to use armed probes, and actually have two probe launchers, you are free to arm them both.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mjwest wrote:
TJolley wrote:
But Fleet scale ships have probe launchers, they have ammo tracks and they can be hit on the DAC..Why wouldn't they count toward cripple status?


Because (8B2b) says, "... equal to one-half of all boxes ..." (emphasis mine). Since the rule makes specific reference to "boxes", I felt compelled to ignore the fleet scale probe, since it has no box.

pinecone wrote:
Several Lyran Ships and the Fleet Battleships have a probe if I remeber correctly, for they have two in squad.


Nope, no fleet scale ship has a probe box on the ship card. Even the Lyran DN and Federation BB (which each have two probe launchers in squadron scale), have no probe box and a single probe ammo track in fleet scale.

pinecone wrote:
Also, would two Probe launchers=2 armed probes when crippled?


First, the condition for using armed probes is not crippled, but rather "when one-half or more of the non-phaser weapons are disabled."

Second, yes. If you are eligible to use armed probes, and actually have two probe launchers, you are free to arm them both.


Okay, thanks for clarification.
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