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Very Basic Tactics
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USS Enterprise
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 27 Feb 2009
Posts: 376
Location: Vulcan

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 5:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry, edited the above post (Scoutdad's Quote is no longer mine), I tend to call things I don't like stupid and I need to stop.

However, you can't say there is no stupid strategy. Charging in and not firing any weapons is certainly stupid in everyway. However, your strategy above may work sometimes, and you probobly play better players then I do (Of course, at range 1, where I like to go with Feds, the torps always hit.) At longer ranges, not so great to put all your eggs in what basket, but what turn you roll on doesn't really effect what you roll does it (Well, it does, but for good or ill, who knows.)

Being able to hit the same shield with all torps is my rationale for my strategy, as you play campaigns you must be a lot more experienced then me (I've only had the game about as long as I joined the forum, about 2 months ago.)

Please explain why your strategy works. It just might.
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djdood
Fleet Captain


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2929
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enterprise, your stated preferred-strategy is predicated on an enemy allowing you to get to range 1. Facing a competently-flown, more maneuverable opponent, you are unlikely to get that opportunity. An expert won't even let you within overload range.

What would your alternate strategy be, in this case?

Yes, point-blank alpha strikes are a lot of fun, when they can be arranged. However, sometimes the enemy just won't do what you want him to and you have to find other ways to deal with him.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
Posts: 1967
Location: Devon, UK

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
Refiners Fire is a scenario in which 2 x KR and a D-7 ambush a Gorn CC, which runs into Federation Space and is supported by a Fed CC ----

....and it's in Communique #7:
http://www.starfleetgames.com/federation/Commanders%20Circle/documents/Communique-7.pdf
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storeylf
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Joined: 24 Jul 2008
Posts: 1883

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In a general sense there is no such thing as a stupid strategy as it all depends on the specific context you try to execute it. What may be stupid most of the time may be great another time, what may be the standard unbeatable strategy may be a stupid idea in another context. Context including ships, players ability, scenario conditions, victory conditions etc.

As to always being stupid to charge in and not fire weapons - that is the perfect example of what I just said, it may stupid 99% of the time, but there is 1 scenario that I'm wanting to play where that is exactly what 1 of the ships I would be playing woudld likely do, the context of that scenario being a tight time limit on the opponent to do something, hence getting 1 of my ships to range 1 with lots of power for a tractor auction either forces him to burn a lot of power beating it off, accept the tractor and slow him down badly, or shoot the crap out of me before I reach him (power usage and another heavy weapon loading cycle). The ship I do that with is largely expendable, so which ever option he takes is worse him than me. However, whether I would do that depends on the other player and how it looks like he is approaching the scenario, as it counters a one strategy very well but not another possible strategy.

Getting to range 1 with overloaded photons certainly hurts, but most competent players know that and will avoid such a thing happening as much as possible, unless it is advantageous for them to allow it. The classic fed CA vs D7 has the CA only able to go speed 32 if he has standard photons held, in which case he can't overload when he fires (nor fire phasers), if he has overloaded photons held he can only go max speed 28. At the same time D7 can do speed 32 with 7 power left over for shooting each turn, he also doesn't have a possible battery issue like a fed who might have started with them empty, and has a better turn mode to boot. In a running duel you will never get into overload range able to fire overloads unless the klingon chooses to allow it. Close for overload photons is a 'stupid' strategy under that condition, on the other hand it may be unbeatable on a fixed map or where the klingon has to get past you to get some other target etc.


Last edited by storeylf on Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:19 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4478
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

USS Enterprise wrote:
...However, you can't say there is no stupid strategy. Charging in and not firing any weapons is certainly stupid in everyway...


Sure I can. What if the scenario goal is to cause someone to start an inter-stellar incident. You power all your weapons to overload status and charge into point-blank range...w/o firing first. If the other guy blinks first and fires... you win. Sue, you may lose a ship - but you could easily win the scenario.

Many of the scenarios out there are predicated on more than just eliminating the enemy units form the map. Some require diplomacy... some require finesse, some require the sacrifice of one ship so that others can win.

Your strategy is great... for an opponent who'll let you get to point blank range. My opponents won't let you do that.

I know it's difficult, but try to introduce some new players to the hobby to expand your range of opponents. The more varied your opponents - the faster your tactical repertoire increases. And if you can't find additional opponents - play a disadvantaged sceanrio against your courrent opponents. Give them the Dreadnought while you face it in a Heavy Cruiser. There's nothing wrong with losing a battle if you fought well, gave it your all, and learned something in the process.

If all else fails, try going to a convention somewhere and hook up with players that are normally 500 miles apart. I went ot Coastcon in Biloxi, MS this year and hooked up with Battlegroup Acadiana for some Federation Commander. It was interesting to see the differnet play styles. I've had 6 years vs the local guys... but I learned as much from one day with a new group as I have in many months with the same old guys... sorry Mike, Merl, and Plasmaboy - but it's the truth.
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
Posts: 2929
Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I look forward to getting "schooled" by scoutdad at Origins some year. That handshake post-game will be a good one.
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Scoutdad
Commodore


Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You'd do better to get Patrick Doyle to "school" you. He can fly circles around me (and he doesn't need a Turn Mode B Klingon Cruiser to do it!)
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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Location: Seattle, WA

PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 11:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Are you kidding! Shocked I'm not a masochist!

Commodore Doyle's reputation precedes him.

You don't get to write multi-page tactics articles in FedCom Briefings without being an absolute terror on the table.

My ego is tender and I need my lessons delivered with the "comfy cushions". Of course, I'm sure Patrick would be friendly and a nice guy while he streaked the map with anything I flew Wink
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
Posts: 4478
Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2009 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I have never played Patrick in Fed Comm...
(I was always smart enough to have a game of Federation and Empire going on instead - although in '07 we played the shortest F&E game on record; it lasted 33 minutes from first move to surrender! Cool - I had to quickly start a second game before someone challenged me to a battle and I had no reourse but to play!)
, I have watched him play and spoken with him in depth. What a great mind he has...
I think my best chance might be to either get him to give me a 4-to1 advantage in points... or convince him to play in 4 separate games simultaneously! Wink
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USS Enterprise
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 27 Feb 2009
Posts: 376
Location: Vulcan

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I have to respond, alright, is it ever not stupid to sit there at speed 0 and not do anything, ever, no matter what? Ok, now I'm just trying to be proved right, but what is is.

Anyway, yeah I generally try to get to overload range before doing anything. Generally my opponents want to Alpha Strike me too so generally I can get there.

And I generally works.
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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Location: Middle Tennessee

PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paly the sceanrio "Negotiate" from Tholian Attack. One vaild tactic is to sit there and do nothing!

Quote:
Anyway, yeah I generally try to get to overload range before doing anything. Generally my opponents want to Alpha Strike me too so generally I can get there.

Then you've been facing very inexperienced players. My group will do everything in their power to avoid overload range until they are certain they have the advantage.
Yes, an alpha Strike w/Full Overloads is devasting... but if you're going to go straight, fire... go straight, fire... You may as well flip a coin to see who wins because in a duel with evenly matched ships... face-to-face, trading OL's it all comes down to who has the best dice rolls - not who has the best strategy.

Quote:
And I generally works.

Just don't become too attached to that tactic as eventually, you'll run across someone who doesn't play that game.
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djdood
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Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
...eventually, you'll run across someone who doesn't play that game.


Or (as my overly-aggressive Klingon opponent did) the opponent eventually questions why he kept losing and starting applying tactics.

Once he moved beyond "close and hose", he suddenly became a very challenging adversary. We both still love a mutual point-blank alpha-strike, but it doesn't happen all that often anymore (unless we intentionally try to make one happen to squeeze a game into 30 minutes).

Beware your friends becoming "smarter than you".
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