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Marine Combat
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Paul Grogan
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 20 May 2008
Posts: 59
Location: Somerset, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:07 am    Post subject: Marine Combat Reply with quote

Unless I am missing something, we used Marines for the first time in our game on Monday night. I read the rules and people were beaming people over on Impulse 7.

We then got to the end of the turn and did Marine Combat, at which point I re-read the rules and realised that the Raids were actually conducted at the end of the Impulse. So, we re-wound and did them as hit and run raids.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the marines either come straight back or get killed. And your transporters can only be used once per turn, so you have to mark it as used.

Anyway, I think I got all that correct, my question was about marines trying to capture ships. How does this work as it is not clear in my rulebook? Actually getting the marines over there.

Is it: when you send marines over with a transporter, you declare if they are doing a raid (in which case they die or come straight back), OR they are staying and trying to capture the enemy ship (in which case they sit around waiting until the end of turn when marine combat is resolved.

Thanks all.
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mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3442
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, you basically have it correct.

If you are doing a Raid, you transport the marine unit over and it either dies or returns.

If you are sending them over to capture (or defend) the ship, you transport them over during any impulse and let them wait for the end of the turn.

In both cases, the marines are transported during the Other Functions Phase of any impulse (assuming conditions allow).

When trying to capture the ship, at the end of the turn during Marine Combat Phase, all ships with combatant marines on board use the chart in (5F2b) to resolve the Marine Combat. Note that each side gets a single roll (per groups of 10), and so it is quite possible that both sides remain after the Marine Combat, in which case you must wait for the end of the next turn to continue the combat.

Let's give an example.

A Klingon D7 is fighting a Federation CA. The D7 has 14 marines and 5 transporters; the CA has 10 marines and 3 transporters.

During the first turn, the D7 and CA have an exchange of fire and by the Other Functions Phase of the relevant Impulse, the two ships have down shields facing each other at a range of five or less. The Klingon, who still has all five of his transporters, decides to board the CA. He spends the point of power and sends over five marine units onto the CA.

At the end of the turn, the Klingon marines are organized into a group of 5, and the CA units are organized into a group of 10. Each side rolls a die; the Klingon gets a "4" and the Fed gets a "3". Using the chart in (5F2b), we see that the Klingon causes 2 casualties, and the Fed causes 3 casualties. That means the Klingon has 2 marine units remaining on the CA, and the Fed has 8.

During the next turn, the Klingon drops another shield and is able to send over five more marine units, giving a new total of 7 marines. At the end of the turn, both sides roll again. Both sides roll a "6". Using the chart, we seen the seven Klingon marines cause 4 casualties, while the eight Fed marines cause 5 casualties. That means the Klingon has 2 marine units remaining on the CA, and the Fed has 4.

During the third turn, the Klingon is able to maneuver such that he faces one of the CA's down shields and transports over his remaining 4 marine units. That gives the Klingon a total of 6 marine units, and the Federation his remaining 4. At the end of the tun, the Fed rolls a "3" and the Klingon's luck holds and he rolls a "6". The chart shows that the Fed causes a single casualty, but the Klingon causes 4 casualties. That means the Klingon has been reduced to 5 marines, but the Fed marines have been wiped out.

Note, however, that even though the Federation marines are gone, the CA is not yet captured. That must wait until a number of additional casualties equal to the number of control systems are scored. Since the CA has two bridge boxes, two auxiliary control boxes, and two emergency bridge boxes, that means the Klingon must score an additional six casualties. Because only five Klingon marines remain, it will take at least two, and most likely more, combat rolls to score those six casualties. Since you only get one roll per turn, that means that, even though all of the Federation marines have been eliminated, it will still be around three or four more turns before the CA is finally captured.

(Does that help?)
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djdood
Fleet Captain


Joined: 01 Feb 2007
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like my group didn't quite get it right the other day.

When capturing ships with no marines (freighters in our case), you immediately go to the "wait until a number of additional casualties equal to the number of control systems are scored" step(s) then, correct?

We goofed it and just declared a freighter captured if we put a boarding party on it (which did speed things up considerably, and speeding things up was the word of the day).
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willhc
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Joined: 10 Mar 2008
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Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We didn't play it wrong...was just a scenario thing. No crew and no marines on the freighters and it sped things up to just have the first one on there take it over. I'm sure we could have used the casualty thing but there really wasn't anyone to fight to begin with Very Happy
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djdood
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 8:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup. It sped things up a lot.
Actually, now that I think harder about it, I think we decided they were all "robot" freighter, so the instant-capture thing would indeed work (the bridge, etc. were empty).
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Scoutdad
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Joined: 09 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 9:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great example, Mike.

Our group has (apparently) been playing marine combat correctly, but your example certainly improves on the long-winded examples we use when introducing someone new to the system.
Thanks.
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 1:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The problem with the ilustration is that unless the Fed got Really bad rolling, the Klingon wouldn't still have his five transporters throught the turns.
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mjwest
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 2:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

djdood wrote:
When capturing ships with no marines (freighters in our case), you immediately go to the "wait until a number of additional casualties equal to the number of control systems are scored" step(s) then, correct?


Technically, yes. However, the way you played makes perfect sense for the situation. Consider it a "scenario rule" that said a robot freighter was considered captured once a single marine unit was aboard.

So, it doesn't mean you were wrong, just that you had a scenario rule that sped things up. Smile

pinecone wrote:
The problem with the ilustration is that unless the Fed got Really bad rolling, the Klingon wouldn't still have his five transporters throught the turns.


Yes. I did that intentionally and actually thought of that point while writing the example. However, I wanted to show how capturing can take place over the course of a scenario, even in a duel. Just pretend they traded a range 5 shot and the Fed rolled double boxcars on his photons.

In reality, it would be very difficult for the Klingon to do what I showed. But it is still quite possible. Plus, my favorite example (the Hood) is the example used in the rulebook.

One side effect of writing the example is that I thought of a tactic that I posted on the legacy site. The Klingon made a horrible mistake by transporting the last of his marines onto the CA. The reason is because all the Fed has to do to completely screw him over is respond (using "me-too") by transporting his own marines over to the Klingon ship. At that point they most likely will end up swapping ships!
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pinecone
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Joined: 03 May 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="mjwest]
pinecone wrote:
The problem with the ilustration is that unless the Fed got Really bad rolling, the Klingon wouldn't still have his five transporters throught the turns.


Yes. I did that intentionally and actually thought of that point while writing the example. However, I wanted to show how capturing can take place over the course of a scenario, even in a duel. Just pretend they traded a range 5 shot and the Fed rolled double boxcars on his photons.[/quote]


Poor Fed Crying or Very sad .

Anyway, I guess this could happen to a bad fed player who dumps all his photons on one turn. If he spaced them so that he could attack with two each turn, then it would be impossible for the klingon (when do we get an abbriviation for "Klingon" anyway?)
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djdood
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I "dump all of my photons on one turn" in about half of my games and wouldn't consider myself a "bad Fed". Neither would my opponents whose ships were either gutted or exploding.

There are times (opponent with a weak or down shield, at close range, etc.) were an "alpha strike" makes sense.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you continue to play the game, you'll learn that there are indeed times when an "Alpha Strike" / Federation Jackpot / Photon Lottery [whatever you prefer to call it] strategy is a good tactic - and just as many times when the "Rolling Thunder" strategy works.

Try to never lock yourself into one single tactic and always be prepared to totally change tracks if the current strategy isn't working. There are as many ways to play each race... err, Empire as there are players and none of them are any more right or wrong than any other.
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinecone wrote:

Anyway, I guess this could happen to a bad fed player who dumps all his photons on one turn. If he spaced them so that he could attack with two each turn, then it would be impossible for the klingon

Pinecone, I've got a player in my group that I'd love to have you play against. He is the ultimately patient sabre-dancer. I've faced his Klingons before and just prayed that he'd get closer than range 20. If there's no tactical reason for a scenario to have a time limit - he's perfectly willing to spend 20 to 30 turns sniping away at your shields until either a) he begins to score more burn through damage than you can repair each turn or 2) you amke a tactical mistake that he feels comfortable capitalizing on or 3) you get tired of him making you play his game and charge into close range and intentionally make the tactical mistake he was waiting for.

Either way, in the 4 years we've been playing this game, and the 28 years we've been playing SFB he's won about 80% of all the games he's been in - against nearly anyone!!!

Quote:
(when do we get an abbriviation for "Klingon" anyway?)


the unoffically (and much hated by ADB) term is Klinks.
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Kang
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Joined: 23 Sep 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scoutdad wrote:
the unoffically (and much hated by ADB) term is Klinks.

I'm good with that Smile
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willhc
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well if your Klingon friend keeps staying away from you then play more scenarios with fixed maps. A Fed will most likely lose in open space if the Klingon stays at range. No competent captain will stick around for that and will just pack up and leave unless there is a reason to stick around.

One reason I prefer larger scale battles and dealing with fleet strategy vs. duel tactics (but that's just me).
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Scoutdad
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

willhc wrote:

One reason I prefer larger scale battles and dealing with fleet strategy vs. duel tactics (but that's just me).


Agreed, that's our favorite method of play... I has just explaining his take on one-on-one duels.
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