Federation Commander Forum Index Federation Commander
A NEW fast paced board game of starship combat!
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

PPD Rules Change Proposal
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
 
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
mjwest
Commodore


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 3435
Location: Dallas, Texas

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: PPD Rules Change Proposal Reply with quote

Steve Cole posted this on the other board, as asked that it be duplicated here. So, I am doing so. (Which is kinda odd. I am posting his request around my own proposal. Smile )

The Booster Zero PPD rules can be found in this thread.

This is Mike West's proposed "new" ISC PPD rules, which has gotten rave reviews from everyone who has seen it (which includes me and Mike Filsinger, so far).
===============
The capsule version:
We can easily reduce the PPD to-hit determination to a
single die roll. The odds work out pretty closely.

The proposed procedure:
Use the existing to-hit numbers and the existing chart.
If the to-hit target (or less) is rolled, all pulses
hit (4 for normal loads; 6 for overloads). If the target
is missed, reduce the number of pulses by the amount
missed. (4A4) modifiers (if any) are simply added to the
rolled number.

Example 1:
So, for example, a PPD is fired at range 12. If an 8
(or less) is rolled, all four pulses hit. If a 9 is rolled,
three pulses hit. If a 10 is rolled, two pulses hit. If
an 11 is rolled, only one pulse hits. A 12 or more results
in a complete miss.

Example 2:
An overloaded PPD is fired at range 7 at an Orion. So, if
an 8 is rolled (which is modified to a 9 by the stealth),
then all six pulses hit. Anything less is the same. If a
9 is rolled (modified to 10), then only five pulses hit.
If a 12 is rolled (modified to a 13), then only a single
pulse hits.

The full explanation:
Working out the odds of rolling at or under a certain
number on 2d6 is (in part):
2-6: 42%
2-7: 58%
2-8: 72%
2-9: 83%
2-10: 92%
2-11: 97%
2-12: 100%

The odds of rolling 2-9 on a specific series of rolls:
Rolls 1 2 3 4 5 6
2-9 83% 97% 99+% 99+% 99+% 99+%
2-8 72% 92% 98% 99+% 99+% 99+%
2-7 58% 82% 92% 97% 99% 99+%
2-6 42% 66% 80% 88% 93% 96%

(This first column in the 2-8 roll shows the odds of
rolling a 2-8 given one chance. The second column shows
the odds of rolling a 2-8 given two chances. The third
column shows the odds of rolling 2-8 given three chances.
And so on.)

Expressing this in terms of a target number on 2d6:
Rolls 1 2 3 4 5 6
2-9 9 11 12 12 12 12
2-8 8 10 11 12 12 12
2-7 7 9 10 11 12 12
2-6 6 7/8 9 10 10 11

(This converts the first chart into the target number
on 2d6 that most closely represents the odds given in
the first chart. The only bad match is the target number
of the "2" column on the 2-6 range.)

From the above progressions we can see that things lay
out pretty nicely. There is a gap between the first and
second rolls, but besides that, things flow with a very
nice progression.

The result is that we can indeed use a single die roll
to determine the number of PPD hits a target receives.

To do this we simply use the target rolls we already have
and state that if you make the target roll, all pulses
hit (4 for normal loads; 6 for overloads). For each number
that you miss the target by, you lose a pulse.

The advantage of this is that it is simple, handes (4A4)
modifiers without problem, and reduces the to-hit roll to
a single roll.

The disadvantage is that it ignores that gap we see in the
second charge between the "1" and "2" columns. However,
this is not really changing the odds significantly, and
can be viewed as a slight balancing factor to compensate
for the other advantages the PPD gains in FC.
_________________

Federation Commander Answer Guy


Last edited by mjwest on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:55 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copying over what I said on the other BBS in response:

My several comments are:

1. Mike's system in the other thread (for a single die roll PPD) looks good enough. The odds aren't perfect, but they are close (and actually work against the PPD's chances - which is a very very good thing). I would use this over the "roll until you hit or run out of pulses" method from Booster 0.

2. PPDs are much more effective in FC than in SFB. If you are going to make no attempt to import the problems facing PPD ships (mostly the movement problems) then I recommend two rules:

a. Do not allow overloads. There is precedent for this in that FC does not allow overloads (e.g. envelopers) for plasma and helps mitigate the massive difference in effectiveness between PPDs in FC and SFB; and

b. increase the point value of the PPD ships by at least 10 per PPD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
silent bob
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sounds easier to me than rolling every pulse possibly from every PPD. although increases the likelihood of at least one hit, but definately speeds things up and is the sort of thing we like to see.

I would keep to overloads anyway. yes these are good weapons but each one is 8 power to arm and fire and a further 4 to overload. I see no real problem with this apart from how accurate they are for their range.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jmt
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 395
Location: Plano, TX

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's quick and simple; much better than rolling multiple times. The cost for the weapon to fire overloads is a sufficient "negative" to keep the overload option.
_________________
jmt

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

All overloads cost more power, not just the PPD. Plasma, if allowed to "overload" (e.g. - envelop) would cost more power too. As there is nothing special about the cost, there can be nothing special about the consideration of that cost.

There is, however, something very different about the cost of overloading in FC as compared to that same weapon in SFB. In SFB (where the BPV/Point cost) for the ships will come from, an overload will require 6 impulses (1.5 FC impulses) to use. In FC it will be instant. This is going to be a big deal, as you will learn soon enough if they publish it as is. The strength of the PPD in SFB is offset by the difficulty in using it. Since in FC it will be the same a photon, if you want any hope of balance, you are going to change something else about the weapon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
silent bob
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

apart from an overloaded photon even to max only uses 8 energy compared to a PPDs 12 to overload.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"same as a photon" (or any other HW) in the sense it will do all it's damage immediately, not over 6 impulses like it would in SFB.

Let me try this another way.

The point value of the weapon is going to be exactly as it is in SFB, because that is where they get the (squadron level) points from - SFB BPV. The weapon will cost the same to arm as it does in SFB. It will do the same damage and have the same "to hit" (well, under Mike's new system, it will hit slightly worse). It will, however, do all the damage immediately. The weapon, therefor, is going to be better - by quite a large margin - than it is in SFB. So if you just import the same BVP/point value then you are going to end up with an unbalanced ship (assuming the same ship in SFB is balanced).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jmt
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 395
Location: Plano, TX

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 9:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In FC the PPD becomes a single-turn direct fire weapon, so comparing ship to ship on powering heavy weapons:

  • The ISC Star Cruiser is 185 points and has 40+4 power, 1 PPD, 2 Plasma S, 6 limited function Plasma-F, and 8 Ph-1.
  • The Federation BC is 189 points and has 41+7 power, 4 Photons, 4 Drones, and 10 Ph-1.
  • Both ships have the same turn mode and the same move cost, so that's a wash


For this analysis, I'm leaving out the batteries as they don't generate power.

The Federation is ahead by 1 power, 1 heavy weapon, and 2 photons. Firing a photon on double overload is 8 points over 2 turns (9.8% of the one turn power generation capacity of the ship). For a 2 turn overload of all weapons, the Federation ship consumes 39.2% of its power (plus the 4 drones are "free").

The ISC has a PPD with overloads that takes 12 points over 2 turns (15% of the power generation capacity of the ship). A Plasma S takes 8 points over 3 turns (6.7% of the one turn power generation capacity of the ship). For an overload of the PPD and 2 Plasma-S torps, the ISC ship consumes only 28.4% of the total power.

Okay, so what does all this say? Well, regarding the power curve, the Federation is behind if the 4 drones are not counted. If you add in the drones, the ISC falls behind the power curve.

Things that are not included in this analysis, such as the total hit percentage, may skew this, but in general it appears that at this point the ships are evenly matched - close enough that there needs to be some games played to see if all this has any relation to reality at all.


Smile
_________________
jmt

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger MSN Messenger
silent bob
Lieutenant SG


Joined: 30 Apr 2008
Posts: 139

PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

true on power the feds are behind but thats because they have more heavy weapons over 2 turns rather than over 3. they also have more phasers for those loading turns. and the power free drones.
also add in the plasma Fs which take power to load as well (after 1st firing anyway) and they get about equal power curves.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
junior
Captain


Joined: 08 May 2007
Posts: 803

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The_Rock wrote:
There is, however, something very different about the cost of overloading in FC as compared to that same weapon in SFB. In SFB (where the BPV/Point cost) for the ships will come from, an overload will require 6 impulses (1.5 FC impulses) to use. In FC it will be instant.


To be a bit more specific, since the PPD has a minimum range of 4 hexes, it has the smallest overload range in the game - 4-8 hexes. Since an overloaded PPD takes six impulses (the equivalent of an FC sub-pulse) to fire, the difficulty comes about in finding a way to keep the target ship within overload range for all six pulses. If, for instance, you're firing at a ship that's about to overrun you, then there's a good chance that you won't even be able to get the initial four pulses off, let alone the two extra ones.

Since FedCom does away with the "one pulse each sub-pulse" system, it gets rid of this difficulty in using the overloaded PPD.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
The_Rock
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 16 Jul 2008
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Junior. That was more clear. Mine was laden with assumptions about SFB knowledge that likely caused more confusion than help.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
pneumonic81
Lieutenant Commander


Joined: 23 May 2008
Posts: 275
Location: Austin TX

PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this could speed things up more as far as PPDs go. Perhaps in our next game with ISC we will give these rules a shot.
_________________
http://www.rickknox3d.com
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
willhc
Lieutenant JG


Joined: 10 Mar 2008
Posts: 46
Location: Redmond, WA

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is a good change. It is not changing the fact that the PPD is going to use all the pulses in a single impulse. This only changes the die-rolling mechanic and it makes the resolution quicker for the weapon. The PPD is still going to have advantages over the SFB version with or without this change since it doesn't have to stay on target for 4-6 impulses while a target may be moving (and turning).
_________________
D7 off the asteroid, through the Ion storm, nothing but net.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nerroth
Captain


Joined: 08 Oct 2006
Posts: 1532
Location: Ontario, Canada

PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm...


I'm still not overly hyped on combining all of the shots in one volley - though I guess this mechanic doesn't invalidate that possibility.

(As in, you roll for how many volleys you get, then have each hit sequentially.)


So, fair enough.
_________________
FC Omega Conversion Project:
*Discussion (v2a)
*Feedback/Errata (v2a)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DNordeen
Commander


Joined: 05 Apr 2007
Posts: 516

PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2008 3:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like it. It's simple and reduces the number of die rolls. Fits perfectly in the FC concept.

However, I am also concerned about the power of the PPD in FC. Playtesting should reveal whether it's a valid concern, if it is, since the concern is over the # of pulses hitting, tweaking the to-hit ratio may fix it.
_________________
Speed is life; Patience is victory

Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Federation Commander Forum Index -> Rules Questions All times are GMT
Goto page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Page 1 of 4

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group