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Evasive Maneuvers proposal
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Bolo_MK_XL
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Joined: 16 Jan 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Not that that has anything to do with EM.


No it doesn't, but it reflects back on the whining done by someone (using the only "hit or miss" weapon developed in the Alpha Galaxy with a 100% chance to hit at range 1) about a perfectly legal tactic to defend a ship ---
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Sir Drake
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the rule should stand as it is. EM is in play to help out against "crunch' ships ability to just close and alpha strike. It is interesting to me to have to make the call, to shoot now or wait for a better oportunity to have unknown factors involved. Like someone said earlier, I agree that it is a rule akin to the HET. These rules are core to keeping the game from being the same fight over and over. I also think that crunch ships are still the easyest to play and don't need any more "help" than they alrdy have by having what they have. A really big stick!
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junior
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
The fed blundered as well, he knew the klingon could go EM, just as the klingon knew the fed could HET - maybe the fed was outmanouvered by a superior klingon who planned for exactly that to happen. The fed wasn't clever, just stupid in playing to the klingons plan.


First, there's a risk involved with HET that isn't present with EM. You get one risk-free HET, and then you start rolling a die. So there's risk associated with that instantaneous turn that isn't present with EM.

Second, as I clearly stated (read all of my post, please, and not just the parts you feel like picking at), it's not just a surprise HET situation. Virtually ANY time you play close and hose and manage to outmaneuver an opponent who has the power (and a disruptor opponent nearly always will since they don't need to pay energy for their heavy weapons until the moment of fire), they'll declare EM (except maybe the Kzintis, since it'll force them to drop their drone control). For close and hose races (and the Feds aren't the only one, as I've already stated), the name of the game isn't "outmaneuver your opponent into point blank range". It's "trick him into wasting his energy and THEN outmaneuver your opponent into point blank range before the end of the turn".

That's why I HATE Evasive Manuevers. They're the universal panic button response to a close and hose opponent that outplays you. And aside from the Kzintis who lose their drones in flight (Klingons and Feds typically don't have that many from a given ship, and the plasma races don't have to control their torpedoes), there isn't really much of a downside to using EM against a Close and Hose race.

No defensive fire? Against what? (a single Fed drone, maybe; the Hydrans don't even have that)
No offensive fire? The reason you went to EM was probably because your opponent caught you in a bad arc. So that's not an issue.
No tractor beams? If you're fighting a close and hose - which is typically what you're dealing with when you need to pull an emergency EM, then the last thing you want to do is to actually get close enough to use these. In fact, this is probably more advantageous to you because your opponent can't tractor you, either.
Turn mode increased by 1? For the Gorn, this is an issue. For the other races I've never really seen it matter all that much.


The High Energy Turn is a powerful "instant use" ability that has a dangerous risk associated with it. EM is a powerful "instant use" ability that is pretty much risk free (except, as noted above, for the Kzinti).
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Savedfromwhat
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Joined: 23 Aug 2007
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

junior wrote:
The High Energy Turn is a powerful "instant use" ability that has a dangerous risk associated with it, after the first time


It seems like you tried to create a false argument there by exaggerating the risk of a HET. I am sure it was unintentional because as humans we tend to argue in our own favor, but I wanted to point it out because It revalidates Storyelf's arguement.

Italics mine.
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OGREAI
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, since I started using the soap box... Very Happy

First, I'll admit that junior's point of Evasive Maneuvers being an emergency crutch is valid. It has even eased my own opinions on this topic.

I've been sucked in too soon against the Federation. I've also kept power back from my strike so I could go to Evasive Maneuvers if my opponent got tricky. Sometimes I was victorious, others... well it was a good day to die Cool . I planned those actions and knew my risk vs. reward. I also can see a strong "reliance" on an emergency crutch.

junior wrote:

First, there's a risk involved with HET that isn't present with EM. You get one risk-free HET, and then you start rolling a die. So there's risk associated with that instantaneous turn that isn't present with EM.

...
junior wrote:

The High Energy Turn is a powerful "instant use" ability that has a dangerous risk associated with it. EM is a powerful "instant use" ability that is pretty much risk free (except, as noted above, for the Kzinti).


I can once again agree with the central premise with junior's statements here, but on the second quote, the High Energy Turn only carries the dangerous risk after the free use. There is a 50% chance of breakdown, but still having at least a 16.7% (and up to a 50% chance) of pointing the ship in the chosen direction (or one that gives an FA angle shot) by random fate without the threat of a torpedo hit. Then we get the Photon gamble. Junior is also correct in saying that Evasive Maneuvers carry no risks (things left to chance) as it stands.

I still do not like the delay aspect of mjwest's original proposal. In the spirit of a forum, I will not just say "No, that's bad." I put forth the following, alternate that adds a "level of risk"

Leave the current system in place (declare in Defesive Fire, terminate on Start of Impulse announcements, etc.) but add the simple chance element of roll a die:

1-3 Evasive Maneuvers start immediately (during that Defensive Fire Phase)
4-6 Evasive Maneuvers start in the following Other Phase (during that Impulse)

Call it the "just in time" roll - the navigator moved too slow, the other ship got the shot off too fast, the captain momentarily froze before shouting the command, what have you.

This way declaring Evasive Maneuvers (when in too close) carries a risk like High Energy Turns, it may not work as you wish. Both maneuvers now carry a price to pay.

I think this could meet the need mjwest was trying for, add another "excitement moment" and fit a feel we have all seen in various fiction. I also think it may not really be nessessary.

OGRE AI
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While we're making rules changes,
we should remove the ability to hold Photons,
since EM is such a bother, no reason to hold a weapon, when we have the option not to expend a weapon, we don't feel has the best chance for success ----
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mjwest
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Joined: 08 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bolo_MK_XL wrote:
While we're making rules changes,
we should remove the ability to hold Photons,
since EM is such a bother, no reason to hold a weapon, when we have the option not to expend a weapon, we don't feel has the best chance for success ----


Okay ...

Please stay on topic. We got that you hate the Federation. However, that is not germaine to the topic.

If you want to say, "No," then say, "No." If you can't argue why not, then please just leave it at that.
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Steve Cole
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And just BTW, I'm not changing the photon holding rule anyway.
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silent bob
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

currently as you say EM is declared in the defensive fire phase.
if this is correct why would you need to change it? the photon races can decide not to fire then and not waste the shots if the opponent has declared EM. or they can fire when they get the earlier chance.
leaving it to come in after the offensive fire phase is a bit drastic IMO as it negates the point of going EM and you could be dead before you even get there and Em becomes a pointless waste of energy.
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Bolo_MK_XL
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry,
Was trying to be sarcastic with the Photon change ---
since it was the photon vs EM that brought up the whole issue --

Being the game is upwards of 3 years old, I personally don't see a reason to change any rule (anything broke enough to change would have been caught long ago) ---

I did argue the point --- that if the start was changed, the cancellation would need changed -- but, they seem to only want to change the part they can't seem to find a solution for ---
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PaulK
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Part of me likes the idea of a slight delay between when EM is declared and when it goes into play. I look at it like the following:

"Sir, it looks like they're going evasive! Targeting is going to have problems soon."
"Okay, we'd better fire now, otherwise we won't be able to hit anything. FIRE!"

vs the existing:

"Sir they went evasive!"
"Damn. I guess we just wait until they decide to blow the crap out of us before we can do anything, now."

Don't get me wrong, I have used EM as an "Oh, crap" card myself a time or two, or three, but for certain races it really does hurt more than others. Most recently I've been flying Seltorians. They pretty much have to be up close and personal to be able to do anything. EM really screws them up bad, especially when you've been carefully plotting, trying to get just the right shot. Even having it go into effect just after the direct fire phase would at least let the direct fire weapons ships get one snapshot off much like you can do against a Romulan that is cloaking and in the middle of the phase-out period.

/Paul
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silent bob
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

well its only a +2 to hit which is better than the +4 range on a fading out romulan IMO.
also if they go EM you can just try to tuck in behind them, fire in impulse 8 with all phasers and see if he stays EM the following turn. if he doesnt you have your fully loaded heavy weapons to drop into him.
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pinecone
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

storeylf wrote:
Bolo_MK_XL wrote:


I find it more believable than the do or die Photon having a 100% chance to hit at range 1, when the Distrupter known for its accuracy at med/long range having only a 83% chance at range 1 ---


med/long range is not really range 1 though is it. Thats like arguing that disrupters have a 50% chance at range 25 yet a photon known for its short range awesomeness has only a 16% chance of hitting.

Not that that has anything to do with EM.


In SFB, Photons couldn't fire at closer than range 2. Distruptors couldn't fire closer than range 1. Overloads were equal to the charts displayed in FC. To eliminate uneeded rules, ADB must have just made this the generic Charts.
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Kang
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, maybe EM is an emergency crutch to prop up a botched approach. Also maybe it's a valid tactic for a race to get in closer without being hit [as badly] as if they were not under EM. Whatever.

But what we must not forget is that a) erratic maneuvering is a perfectly realistic tactic - duckin' and dodgin' happens in all combat from boxing up to fighter jets jinking over the target to avoid flak. There's nothing wrong with it in that sense; and b) it's canonical. Especially in episodes of Voyager [oops there goes the trademark...], evasive maneuvers have been used on-screen.

Also, EM is firmly established in SFB. I don't have my rulebook with me [the trolley it's in is at home Smile ] but I seem to remember it worked fine in that game. Granted, the ECM rules provided for counter-jamming, but still....

Anyway that's my two penn'orth. Hope it helps.....
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DNordeen
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see no reason to change EM.

If someone made a bad move and goes EM to avoid the consequences, their opponent is probably in a good position to hit hard. Since the ship has to remain EM for 2 impulses, the obvious answer is to use the next 2 impulses to close the range and hose them before they come out of EM. By closing the range, you can get the odds pretty close to where they were before EM. For example, if it's range 6, photons hit on 1-3. If the target uses EM, you should be able to close up to range 2 especially if you accelerate. At range 2, the photon hits at 1-3 with EM. Even if you can only get to range 3 or 4, It's not a bad idea to take a shot with overload photons along with pretty decent Ph-1 damage against a target that can't shoot back.

Hydrans have it easier since they power fusions at the instance of firing (hellbores aren't as badly affected by the EM shift). As a Fusion hydran, I'll give up one of my fusion shots to accel and fire the rest of them. Especially if I can flush my fighters on the impulse he goes EM. Depending on range and speed, the fighters would be able to keep up and take a shot before the target comes out of EM.

Furthermore, since EM causes an increased turn mode, you should be able to manuever to keep the good positioning that caused him to go EM in the first place. Sooner or later, he'll drop EM and you'll get the same shot, or you'll manage to get into a range that has a good chance of hitting despite the EM.

Additionally, you can probably even manuever to drop a suicide shuttle right in front of them and watch them run over it. Hydrans could do this with their fighters and watch their opponent run over a squad of fighters with Ph-Gs at close range. Shocked

As a Kzinti, I use that tactic with my drones. Nothing is sweeter to me than hearing someone declare EM. I cut tracking for enough drones so I can launch a full drone spread at close range and watch 48+ points of damage tear his ship apart!! Twisted Evil Most of my opponents don't declare EM against me very often after I do that a couple of times Sad

On a side note, if they used power for EM, they gave up something else (weapons fire, chance to accel/decel, reinforcement, etc.)
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